help me get my kids to listen - Page 3

[cmb123]

Originally Posted by canadiyank

Hmmm. I read it more as, "I wish I could help you more, but I can't since I don't have the required experience in those areas." Perhaps you have felt scorn from other mamas, but I didn't read sarcasm or judgement in her post, just frustration that she coudn't help more. Sometimes it's hard to brainstorm ideas w/o seeming trite if you gaven't gone through it, kwim? We know you're here for help/support, mama - we all are! I'm sorry if you feel you're not getting the answers you need...

Yes exactly!!!

[burke-a-bee]

Sorry! Thanks for all your help.

[AngieB]

The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what? That's where I'm at a loss. Someone made the point that we are all 1st generation GDers, which for me is very true. When I was a kid and got out of line the first respone was to yell and then a smack if we didn't stop the behaivor. I don't want to do that but I don't know another way so alot of time I ignore the behavior or spend most of the day pleeding with them to behave.

[AngieB]

sorry double post :

[burke-a-bee]

"The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what? That's where I'm at a loss. Someone made the point that we are all 1st generation GDers, which for me is very true. When I was a kid and got out of line the first respone was to yell and then a smack if we didn't stop the behaivor. I don't want to do that but I don't know another way so alot of time I ignore the behavior or spend most of the day pleeding with them to behave."


Same feeling here!

[maya44]

Originally Posted by burke-a-bee

"The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what? That's where I'm at a loss. Someone made the point that we are all 1st generation GDers, which for me is very true. When I was a kid and got out of line the first respone was to yell and then a smack if we didn't stop the behaivor. I don't want to do that but I don't know another way so alot of time I ignore the behavior or spend most of the day pleeding with them to behave."


Same feeling here!

For me, a SECOND generation gd'er, I don't find it so hard. I will tell you that my methods are not completely AP. But they do not involve spanking, punishing or bribing either.

They can make life alot saner.

First of all, I am not big on choices. If this is working with a child GREAT. But if its cauisng more problems, its prob an indication that your child isn't seeking choices.

So for me what's next is simply, a statement of what must be done and that I DO NOT LIKE what is going on (said in a calm but VERY serious voice) and expect better in the future."

Most importantly and feeling that once this has been done, there is NOTHING more that needs to happen.

Here is one example:

"It will be time to go in five minute. We must go to the grocery. There is no food in the house"

"OK five minutes are up. Let's go"

"Oh, why do we have to? I don't want to."

"Get in the car. We must go to the grocery store to get food."

"NO! Its not fair, why do I have to go. I don't need to eat. I can just have candy"

"Get in the car now. We must go. I DO NOT LIKE that you are keeping us waiting!" (this is said sternly but calmly, not yelling. It can feel really good to "dial down" here)

(Key here, NO discussion about why you are going, that you need food that they just can't have candy etc....you already told them why you are going. they know. Do not get distracted. Keep your eye on the prize...everyone in the car.)

You must make yourself feel inside that you are indeed in control. That you are going to the store and that whatever they are saying or doing is just not relevant.

If they are little, pick them up as gently as possible and put them in the car.

If they are too big: WAIT. But your demeanor must be the one you have when waiting for a bus that is REALLY LATE.

Don't say anything ELSE, other than repeating like a mantra "The Car, now!" (Think about how this feels, how empowering it is to not feel like you must respond to everything being said)

No, discussion AT THIS TIME of how they need to be 'part of the team' or anything else.

Later, when you are back home you can talk about this if you wish. You can say that you expect better behavior in the future.

Thus, you have stated your expectations. You have let them know that you are not happy when they don't meet those expectations.

There is no need to punish.

You would be suprised at how effective this can be.

[LoveBeads]

Originally Posted by AngieB

The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what? That's where I'm at a loss. Someone made the point that we are all 1st generation GDers, which for me is very true. When I was a kid and got out of line the first respone was to yell and then a smack if we didn't stop the behaivor. I don't want to do that but I don't know another way so alot of time I ignore the behavior or spend most of the day pleeding with them to behave.

I'm also a second generation GD'er.

One of the great things about this board is that it offers different methods under the larger umbrella of Gentle Discipline to try. You have to do a lot of trial and error before you find something that works for your children.

Case in point: what Maya said. Everything that she wrote would not have worked for me. First, my child would never have said, "why do we have to go?". She would have had a full blown tantrum and screamed at the top of her lungs. If I had kept saying, "The car, now!" over and over then my DD would have continued her tantrum for longer than I could have held out because it would have enraged her to have me repeat. How do I know this? Because I have tried it! Now, everything that Maya said makes perfect sense and obviously works for her but it did not work for me.

What worked for me is to say (after the 5 minute warning), "Maddy, it's time to go. Who's the leader?" and she would automatically say, "ME!" and run to the car. How do I know this? Because it finally was the thing that worked after I tried many other things.

Nobody here will be able to offer you the perfect solution every single time but we can offer you enough respectful suggestions and hope that one of them will work for you. The key is creativity and that's what makes this board so great - you'll get suggestions that you never would have thought of on your own and something will work for you.

Good luck!

[canadiyank]

Originally Posted by AngieB

The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what?

I tried to explain this above, but I will try to be more specific. If those aren't working (and a lot of times they don't, that's for sure!), then you need to make it happen...words need to be backed up with action...if your child is not picking up his/her toys and limited choices, "if/then", "let's pick up all the green ones first!" etc. are not working (and you have an immediate need for a clean floor/room), then you need to "make it happen." In this situation I would take her hand, cover it and the toy with my hand, and physically help her pick up the toys. After a few times of "helping" she will usually do the rest. Other times I have to help the whole time. She may kick and scream and cry - this does NOT mean I'm being punitive but that she's reacting to the boundary I'm set.

However, how YOU are acting has much to do with it being punitive or not...I know I've been punitive in enforcing gentle discipline b/c my attitude was one of, "She'd better learn this lesson and be sorry b/c I am MAD," kwim? It's hard not to want to "Teach 'em a lesson" and that they should be sorry and regretful. Our job is not to shame them but to teach them what is appropriate.

If my child is jumping on the couch our conversation would go something like this: "Kiri, you need to stop jumping on the couch. That can damage the couch, you may jump on the big pillow." If she keeps jumping: "Can you stop yourself from jumping or do you need mommy's help?" She usually stops herself. If not, I (ideally!) calmly get up and lift her off the couch, redirecting her to the pillow. She may kick and scream and throw herself in a heap on the floor or she may start jumping on the pillow or she may engage in something else.

The reason I am talking a lot about "kids reacting to boundaries" is b/c I used to think that with GD my kid would happily jump up and obey me. They WILL react strongly sometimes (often?), this doesn't mean you're ineffective b/c they "not obeying you" or punitive...remember, teaching, teaching, teaching.

I also take into consideration hunger, sleepiness, etc. (i.e., if she is hungry or sleepy then undesireable behaviour is simply more likely, just like I have a hard time keeping calm when I'm overtired!).

I hope that helps somewhat. I know it is tough...I find if my child is not reacting to words then I need to "act." I do not need to be threatening or overbearing when I do this, but I do need to "make it happen."

Here is a link for "The 5-Steps," a non-punitive tool. There's other articles on this site that are helpful, too (just FYI, this is a Christian site, endorsing the use of Grace-Based Discipline, which is a non-punitive discipine style). 5 steps

[canadiyank]

My child likes being the leader, too. After transition time/5 min and 1 min warning I get her to open the car door, decide what door she wants to go in, ask her to help carry stuff to the car, etc. I agree that creativity is key - it's tough sometimes, especially when you just want the to obey, LOL, but yeah, I've become extremely creative at getting her into the car. If she wan't going after the above methods I would pick her up and carry her (realizing this would be impossible for an older child!). That's just what' worked here so far. I have used maya's example when things are non-negotioable, too, and I don't want to argue.

I wonder how many GD "going to the car" scenarios we can come up with!!

[maya44]

Originally Posted by LoveBeads

I'm also a second generation GD'er.

One of the great things about this board is that it offers different methods under the larger umbrella of Gentle Discipline to try. You have to do a lot of trial and error before you find something that works for your children.
Nobody here will be able to offer you the perfect solution every single time but we can offer you enough respectful suggestions and hope that one of them will work for you. The key is creativity and that's what makes this board so great - you'll get suggestions that you never would have thought of on your own and something will work for you.

Good luck!

ITA!

The thing to keep in mind is that GD is not just one thing.

It does not mean that you always have to make your child happy.

It means only (to me) that you don't seek to inflict punishment as a means of controlling behavior.

[brandywine]

Hi all. I'm also not "getting it" when it comes to GD, particularly with my daughter, who is 5 and a half. When she chooses not to do something I have asked, there is simply *not a thing* I can do to 'fool' her into it. Offering choices doesn't work...she refuses to choose. She is not easily distracted or redirected, and trying to talk out the problem doesn't work either...she totally tunes me out. She often laughs, runs away, hides, throws things at me and so on if I try to talk to her (calmly) about why a certain thing needs to happen. If I approach her to physically make her do something, like pick up or put on a coat or put down the poor cat, she will hit or bite me, laughing all the while. Now that I am nine months pregnant, I'm not particularly willing to engage in a physicaly struggle with her. She also doesn't respond to yelling or spanking, by the way, so I'm not trying to to discredit GD as an inferior form of discipline.

My son, who is seven, doesn't choose to challenge as often, but his main weapon is whining. He will whine and stall till the sun sets, and the whining really ruins the atmosphere in the house for the day. Also, at his age/strength, I'm not sure how to physically enforce a boundary without hurting him....he can put up a pretty big fight.

I see people on the board saying that gentle discipline does not mean no discipline, but I also don't see alot of examples of how you (meaning you sucessful gd'ers) *make* your child do something they refuse to do.

Most of my problems seem to come when I want the kids to do something...like pick up their toys or art supplies (my daughter doesn't care if I take/throw them away, it doesn't matter to her). We've tried very simple chore charts with things like brushing their teeth, picking up toys and taking dirty laundry to the laundry room. Reward systems don't work...dd just doesn't give a hoot if she misses out on a reward and ds will whine/scream/cry for literally hours if he misses a reward he didn't earn....which makes it a punishment for me as well.


GD sounds nice, and I'd like for it to work, but as you can probably tell, we haven't had much sucess with it (or anything).

[cmb123]

Originally Posted by maya43

ITA!

The thing to keep in mind is that GD is not just one thing.

It does not mean that you always have to make your child happy.

It means only (to me) that you don't seek to inflict punishment as a means of controlling behavior.

For me the whole "does not mean you always have to make your child happy" part is key. It's fine with me if my child is disappointed or angry or whathaveyou...that's life. I think one of the cool things is they GET to feel and show those feelings without being told to "be quiet" or punished for being upset.
I think another part of actually getting results is being consistant. Say what you mean and mean what you say. This is so important! I;ve seen so many times a Mom say we're going now..then stop to talk to someone, so the kid goes back to playing, then the Mom is ticked off, when she is the one who stopped again KWIM? Or threaten and threaten and say no and say no and then NEVER follow through. How in the world does that parent expect thier child to take them seriously? I think that's how kids become "mommy deaf" their parents talk and talk and talk, but never do what they say- so why listen?
I also don't feel that ever situation is up for negotiation. I negotiate when I can ( sometimes my kids have good points for their arguements!) But if I need to say "no" to something, I MEAN IT. After the first explination of "why" I will not engage in arguing or tantrums about it.. they can be upset, that's fine.


As far as what next...It really depends on the situation. I am a believer in consequences (many here are not). I try to match the result with the action ( not just some arbitrary punishment that does not have relavance to the action)- For instance, the other morning my son wanted to play a game before school. I told him he could. I came down to tell them that we were leaving in 10 minutes, it's time to turn off the game now and get your school things together so you're ready by the time I come down. When I came down, he was still in front of the game,things not ready, shoes not on etc.. then threw a hissy because he couldn't find his shoes etc... ( he should have been doing that in those 10 minutes I gave him). So consequence is, if he wants to play a game in the morning before school, he must be totally dressed, including shoes, and his school things must be ready by the door BEFORE he turns on the game. To me that's no real hardship for either of us, and we both get what we want.

[luv my 2 sweeties]

I only have time for a really quick post right now, but this jumped out at me:

Most of my problems seem to come when I want the kids to do something...like pick up their toys or art supplies (my daughter doesn't care if I take/throw them away, it doesn't matter to her).

Just wondering how far you go with this. If she doesn't care that you threw out her art supplies, then she has no more art supplies to make a mess with, no? Sometimes if clutter is a problem and the kids don't miss things when they're gone, it's a sign of too much stuff. I know this doesn't get to the heart of your problem, but it might be one small piece of the puzzle. Gotta run now!

[aussiemum]

just a quick suggestion re: whining- you may have already tried this! When my kids start whining about something, i refuse to 'understand' what it is they are saying until they can say it in a normal voice. Mostly now I just have to remind them to use their 'normal' voice, but if they get frustrated with my request, then I will try to model how I would like them to say it. I tell them that I'm happy to listen & try & help work out whatever the problem is, but I cannot stand being whinged at & so they must use their normal voice to talk to me. When they stop whinging, I will say 'Oooo that makes my ears feel so much better', & then I will get down & really intently listen to their words. They still might not get what they want, but at least they know I've heard them out & we've talked it over..... It doesn't always end without conflict, but it's better than it used to be at our house, I think.... good luck!

[maya44]

Originally Posted by brandywine

M
Most of my problems seem to come when I want the kids to do something...like pick up their toys or art supplies (my daughter doesn't care if I take/throw them away, it doesn't matter to her). We've tried very simple chore charts with things like brushing their teeth, picking up toys and taking dirty laundry to the laundry room. Reward systems don't work...dd just doesn't give a hoot if she misses out on a reward and ds will whine/scream/cry for literally hours if he misses a reward he didn't earn....which makes it a punishment for me as well.


GD sounds nice, and I'd like for it to work, but as you can probably tell, we haven't had much sucess with it (or anything).

Here is what I have done:

"DD, pick up your toys"

"NO. I am too tired and its not that messy"

"You need to clean up. I will be back on five minutes I expect it to be done" (NO discussion about whether the room is or is not messy, or whether she it too tired)
Then, I exit.

About 90 percent of the time, what I ask is done if not, I might go clean it up myself and then say

"DD, I had to clean up your mess. I DID NOT LIKE THAT, it was your job (said sternly but very calmly) Next time I expect you to do it.

That is it. It really is very effective to have your "expectation" hanging over their head. They don't get away with anything.

Note that this expectation NEVER went away. They were not able to do the crime, by paying the time (that is to say, no punishment.)

This may not work with all kids, but it has worked with all three of mine. Most people never even try to discipline this way. It really does work much of the time.

[canadiyank]

Originally Posted by maya43

"DD, I had to clean up your mess. I DID NOT LIKE THAT, it was your job (said sternly but very calmly) Next time I expect you to do it.

I get what you're saying. And, as we've discovered, we all do things differently. I think it's important that our children know we're pleased/displeased etc. but there's a fine line between that and making them responsible for our feelings (i.e., I need to do that b/c it makes mommy happy). I try to put the focus more on that it's their responsibility (like you also mentioned). I just know I had a mother who withdrew when I was "bad" and that is very painful so I try to avoid making them responsible for my feelings...not saying you do that, I'm just sensitive to it, yk?

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by canadiyank

I get what you're saying. And, as we've discovered, we all do things differently. I think it's important that our children know we're pleased/displeased etc. but there's a fine line between that and making them responsible for our feelings (i.e., I need to do that b/c it makes mommy happy). I try to put the focus more on that it's their responsibility (like you also mentioned). I just know I had a mother who withdrew when I was "bad" and that is very painful so I try to avoid making them responsible for my feelings...not saying you do that, I'm just sensitive to it, yk?

I totally agree. I also think it's more helpful to say why the toys need to be cleaned up, other than it will make mommy unhappy for you not to do it.

My kid is only 3, but he understands reason. If the toys are all over (which they often are, as our house is small), I can tell him that I don't like it so messy, that we don't have enough room to play something else, or that the toys might get stepped on and might break or hurt our feet. Those aren't arbitrary rules he doesn't comprehend.

And if he says, "No. I don't want to help." (which is rare). I don't force him. What I try to do is model cheerfully picking up. If I'm feeling crabby and overwhelmed about it, I'll say that and tell him that I really feel like I need someone to help me.

He's 3. He doesn't really care if the house is cleaned up. :LOL That's my issue. But, because it's not been a big deal or a punishment, he doesn't see it as a big deal or as something negative.

[nicole lisa]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

And if he says, "No. I don't want to help." (which is rare). I don't force him. What I try to do is model cheerfully picking up. If I'm feeling crabby and overwhelmed about it, I'll say that and tell him that I really feel like I need someone to help me.

He's 3. He doesn't really care if the house is cleaned up. :LOL That's my issue. But, because it's not been a big deal or a punishment, he doesn't see it as a big deal or as something negative.

Right on! It gets back to the point that kids have so many other goals and most aren't the same as ours. Especially at three!

I think it's always helpful to check our own issues so we know where we're coming from and what our triggers are, that way ahead of time we can decide whether an issue like picking up toys at three or four or seven or whatever is worth a battle because it's important or if it's somethng we should let go with our child because it's our own issue and has nothing to do with the big picture.

More often that not easier said than done.

I know we all have different ways of GDing, but I am leery of seeing forcing a child to pick up toys as gentle. Maybe showing them how to pick up a toy and drop it in a bucket, but to keep moving them from toy to toy using your hand on top of theirs to open and then close it around a toy, walk them over to the bucket and have them drop it until a space is cleaned up? I think maybe I'm not getting something (most likely), but how would you respond to your partner or husband coming home to hear you declare you just don't want to make dinner tonight, how about ordering out? and having him walk you over to the counter and use his hands on top of yours to help you chop carrots and onions? I'm not looking to start anything up but rather if people can help me see something I'm missing? Do kids ever have room to not want to do something, as we do, or does everything that's important to us have to be done? Maybe this veers from this topic too much and more into philosophy, but if anyone is up for discussing it I would love to.

Nicole.

[MamaOui]

Here's where I have to ask about the example Monkey's Mom gave when you have more than one child.

What if you do all that Monkey's Mom had done (up to the point where you do it yourself, which I won't do <but I'll always help>) and only one child wants to cooperate? In my house, this makes the cooperative child resentful and annoyed.

[MamaOui]

Oh and adding to the mix is a one year old that puts everything in her mouth, so things must be cleaned up periodically throughout the day.