I just reinforced Spanking. *grrr*

[Baby Hopes]

I was talking to my sister on the phone yesterday. We get along really well, and are alike in so many ways... so you can imagine how frustrating it is that we parent/discipline so differently. From the get go my sister made it clear that I would 'learn' how important spanking is. Citing story after story of permissive parenting that she's seen. I think she's secretly worried that I am going to either spoil or ruin Sarrah by my Gentle Discipline.

Anyway, I know better than to talk about discipline issues with her. We are pretty much at an impass. However, last night we were chatting and Sarrah came over and wanted to push the hang-up button on the phone. (Something that amuses DD to no end is pushing buttons.) I told Sarrah she needed to get HER phone. Sarrah's first reaction was to arch her back and raise her hand as though she was going to hit the phone. Or me. (This is a totally new post that I am going to submit... because frankly I don't really know what to do with DD's automatic "hit when upset" behavior.)

Dh came over and redirected her to play with him and the puppy while I talked on the phone. No big deal. I did say to my sister that I was frustrated with Sarrah's hitting. She's always been aggressive with her emotions. (Love, Anger, Sadness... to the tenth power.) I told her, "I don't know what to do! Sarrah has never had her hand swatted, let alone spanked and she is such a hitter! Where does this come from?"


My sister's respones? "See. This just totally disproves the theory that spanking teaches kids to hit."

Silence.

Somehow, inadvertantly, I have managed to reinforce my sister's position on spanking. I mumbled something out about how "even though Sarrah hits I do stand by the position that if you model behaviour your children will follow. So if you hit, then so will they."

However, I feel like anything I was saying was falling on deaf ears. She's already added another chalk point to the list of reasons why spanking is not only okay, but necessary. Not only that, but now I have one more 'strike' against the gentle disciplining that I do. "See, Manda says that it's all great, and all that. But she's got a HITTER on her hands." *sigh*

[maya44]

Look, the reason that I don't hit my children is NOT to "keep them from hitting." Although I do believe in the LONG run this will happen.

The reason I don't hit my children is because I believe that hitting is morally wrong. I certainly can't convey that value to my children if I am hitting them.

Many children do seem to have an instinct to lash out physically when told that they can't do what they want. Indeed, I think almost all children will naturally try this behavior to see if it will accomplish their goal of getting something that they are being denied.

The fact that they are not hit is not going to keep them from experimentin with this behavior.


I firmly believe and can see from my three older dd's that the tendency to hit will go away when:

1. hitting does not accomplish their goal of getting something they want (obviously it is not a good idea to give in to a child because they are hitting)

2. When they are told calmly "I can see that you are angry. Its ok to be angry, but you can not hit me. Hitting is wrong."

and

3. They do not see hitting modeled by their parents.

[PaganScribe]

I don't think not spanking keeps our toddlers from learning to hit or being "hitters." They are little, they are smart -- they are bound to figure out that hitting allows them to release some of their frustration and may even get a reaction out of the person being hit. Nobody needs to "teach" them to hit -- they're going to figure out how to do that on their own.

What not spanking does is teaches them that it's not okay to hit, ever, even if you are the bigger person with more power. So when they find more appropriate ways to release that frustration, they will not fall back to hitting as the "right" thing to do when you are the more powerful person in a relationship.

I don't think not spanking helps our kids not hit when they are babies. I think it helps them not hit when they are much older than that.

[oldcrunchymom]

Originally Posted by Baby Hopes

My sister's respones? "See. This just totally disproves the theory that spanking teaches kids to hit."

False logic. The fact that hitting exists outside spanking homes does not negate the fact that by hitting your kids, you are teaching them that hitting is an acceptable discipline tool. People who are hit as kids are more likely to hit their own kids. That's a fact.

An analogy: A child who comes from a non-yelling family screams at you. Does that disprove the theory that yelling teaches kids to yell more? Of course not. Yelling and hitting are both natural instincts that we need for survival in extreme circumstances. Just because we possess the facility to yell and hit doesn't mean they are preferred discipline tools.

[Baby Hopes]

I agree so much with what everyone is saying. Why can't I manage to articulate that on the spot? Instead I sit there with "uh-uh-uh" running through my head as I try and process what has just happened.

I know I opened myself up to it with my comment about "Sarrah isn't spanked... where does she learn this?" But, honestly I was just voicing a general frustration. I was expecting a more neutral response from my sister. A friendly empathetic, "I know, mother is hard." Or "Some kids just like to try things to see how you'll respond." Instead I walked away feeling like I had validated her 'spanking stance.' *sigh*

I am going to remember that about yelling and hitting being natural survival skills.

Just because we possess the facility to yell and hit doesn't mean they are preferred discipline tools.

I will say, though, that often I feel at a loss with my daughter's aggression. She is only 14 months old, but has had a great 'aim' since she was big enough to lift objects. My head knows that my daughter just naturally demonstrates her emotions physically. She the most huggy, kissy kid around. But the flip side is that when she's mad or frustrated she hits, or throws.

I am having a hard time picking my battles. For instance, I have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to hitting people or the dog... but I've noticed lately that if she get's frustrated she'll even hit herself, or an object near her. Or not even that! Sometimes she'll look at me and knock books over aggressively. I'll have her help me pick them up, and no sooner are they put away then she'll knock them over again. I am not talking about "ooh, a fun game!" She does this when she's been told "no" or has been told not to hit.

I do feel out of my league with it all. And to top it off I've got my sister keeping tabs on how things are going. I never claimed to her that GD was the magic trick to perfect children. In fact, I am not sure that I WANT perfect children. lol. I just know that to her the hitting issue is simple. "Swat their hands, and tell them: 'No hitting!'"

[MsMoMpls]

Hitting is a primative behavior, it is a naturally occuring behavior that we teach our children is inappropriate. Highly developed, health people may feel the urge to hit but have developed the ability to resist their primative urges and act rationally. How's that for a come back?

[mistymama]

Everyone else has already said wonderful things about GD and hitting, so I wont repeat that.

I can sense your frustration with your daughter's hitting, so I thought I would offer you some sympathy. Try to remember that hitting at 14 months is really pretty common ... they don't have the words to express their emotions ("I want to push the button on YOUR phone, NOT mine!!") and that leads to tantrums, hitting, etc. As she gets some words and can express herself better, I'm sure the hitting will decrease. And of course, you are setting a wonderful example by NOT hitting her!

My son is 28 months old and has SID, still does not talk much at all, and gets VERY frustrated. He is not much of a hitter, but he bangs his head on things when he's mad ... I've been headbutted more than once and it HURTS. It helps to remember WHY he's acting the way he is and look at it from a developmental standpoint. I don't know if your sis has kids (I'm guessing not) but it's very normal for a 14 month old to hit out of frustration and it's our job as parents to model correct behavior and teach a more appropriate way to get our your aggression.

Hang in there, it will get better. As far as your sis goes, well, maybe you can open up a more productive conversation in the future. But I've also found that sometimes it's best to leave things at "let's agree to disagree" and let your actions and your child's behavior show here that spanking is not the only way. GD does pay off, and you are doing the right thing, your daughter will follow your example and learn better ways to vent her anger and it will show your sister that your way DOES work.

[MamanFrancaise]

Just wanted to add that my 3.5 year old was a hitter/thrower and she was never spanked. But she absolutely, 100% grew out of it as soon as she was able to express herself with words rather than actions. I would just remind myself what it would be like to have such a limitted vocabulary and have to express my frustrations and anger.

And everything we did didn't really help, discipline-wise for hitting & throwing besides telling her the obvious. She just needed to grow out of it.

And your DD will too because it's obvious what a fabulous mama you are and that you are teaching her all the right lessons.

ETA - My step father is a huge spanking advocate and I believe many years of participating in online spanking debates helped me respond to his comments quickly and intelligently, LOL.

[LoveBeads]

Spanking doesn't teach kids how to hit, they all know how to do that. It teaches children that hitting is an acceptable and appropriate outlet for anger.

But I might say this: "spanking disproves the theory that adults shouldn't act like toddlers."

[sunnmama]

"See. This just totally disproves the theory that spanking teaches kids to hit."

Just wanted to add that I've heard this from my mother when dd was in a violent stage. I told her "I think they can figure out how to hit on their own. I'm trying to teach better behaviors."

That shut her up.

[our veggie baby]

I heard a comment on the GD board when I first joined that I LOVED and I use all the time with people...sorry for not giving whoever said it credit, I forget who it was!

Basically, it was "I am not trying to raise a well-behaved child as much as I am a well-adjusted adult."

To me, that means, yes, in a perfect world our children would be little angels all the time and never act out, etc, and sometimes they are capable of doing both at once (behaving and learning tools for adulthood) but if in a moment or situation you have to sacrifice a bit of good behavior for the greater good of raising a well-adjusted adult then it is an easy choice.

In other words, her hitting is obviously not the behavior you want..but hitting her as punishment for hitting you defeats the whole purpose of anything and will eventually teach her that hitting IS okay. My Mom used to say the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" ALL time time and I think in this case it really fits. Yes, no one is arguing that your daughter hitting is not cool....but for your sis to kind of suggest that YOU hitting her would nip it in the bud or whatever, is ridiculous---it's like punching someone in the face because they sprained their ankle to detract from the pain in their ankle ...get me?

Anyway, I don't believe that children who aren't spanked never hit and your sis has a point in saying that, because guess what....children hit...that is why on Mothering, where almost no one spanks or has ever spanked you see about 23094732049 posts that say "help, daughter hitting!" or whatever--I think more than anything at a really young age it is developmental and part of the frustration of not being able to effectively communicate needs etc...

good luck to you though! If nothing else, just agree to disagree with your sister. Tell her that it is obvious you aren;t going to change her mind (though you wish you could) and more than that, she is NEVER going to change your mind that spanking is okay, so in order to save you both from arguements, you can agree to not discuss it or whatever...

Take care!

[cmb123]

I don't know that there is anything else you can do to "prove" your point than to just go on being who you are. You have chosen not to hit your child, that works for you. You will prove your point when she see's it is possible to raise a child this way. It doesn't sounds as though there is anything you could SAY that will change her mind.
This may just be a subject you don't talk with her about anymore. If you are having "disciple" issues, don't ask/talk to HER about them..you already know where she stands.

[abac]

Originally Posted by LoveBeads

Spanking doesn't teach kids how to hit, they all know how to do that. It teaches children that hitting is an acceptable and appropriate outlet for anger.

Originally Posted by sunnmama

"I think they can figure out how to hit on their own. I'm trying to teach better behaviors."

These will be in my mind the next time MY sis tells me I should spank.

[Jordansmommy]

I forget where the quote comes from but this person (child psychologist?) points out that toddlers have very few resources at hand. They can't express themselves clearly in words, they can't take away privileges from the adults who are constantly imposing their wills on the toddler. So what do they do when they get frustrated? Hit or have a tantrum (she calls tantrums "wonderfully eloquent if seldom appreciated expression of the toddler's inner experience" which I also love )

I always like to mention that to adults who think spanking is ok - it's a very good point. Hitting is something that happens when you run out of ideas and lose control of yourself. It's not the practice of a creative parent who seeks to teach their child how to solve problems and deal with life's little ups and downs.

[Jordansmommy]

Alicia Lieberman - "The Emotional Life of a Toddler" I didn't read the book but I read some quotes elsewhere and thought "ah hah!"