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LDS mammas #7 - Page 3

post #41 of 114
Btw welcome to g-dawg and quella. Just 2 things...about the ear infection, ds had many his first 6 mo.s and has since grown out of them but I definitely advocate if you can go without using the antibiotic it's much better for your baby. If there's no fever and the baby isn't in terrible discomfort a lot of ear infections go away on their own. You probably know this already and I'm preaching to the choir right?

Laurel- We had a family reunion of sorts 2 weeks ago when there was a funeral and I got to see my SIL whose 2 sons are adopted. I could tell that she/they are really struggling with ds#2 that I've mentioned before. He's super, super clingy (afraid of being left) and cries almost constantly (he's 2 years old). He's not very verbal yet which compounds the problem. We also had a conversation where she vented her frustration with ds#2, both she and her husband are. I guess I was wondering if you might have any suggestions that I could gently talk to her about attachment parenting and suggest some books?

As far as a religious exemption goes in regards to the church, from the research that I've done I don't think it would stand up in court if it was really challenged. It's not like Christian Scientist who have it specifically outlined in their faith. Also, we don't preach in countries who have not officially admitted our missionaries b/c we are honoring their law so saying that we're following the higher law by following our intuition (which is what other churches who do preach in these countries use as their basis for preaching) I don't know if that's a really strong argument for me. Just so you know, ds is partially vaxed to this point. I'm really not trying to be argumentative but to just figure out how you all have dealt with the situation and the reasons why it works for you and hopefully some ideas that I can adopt myself. Thanks!
post #42 of 114
There have been many cases since 1983 that have upheld "personal religous beliefs". You do not have to belong to a specific religion to claim a religious exemption.

Clinton Central School District -v- Robert and Katherine Allanson

"The Federal Courts have clearly ruled that while it is perfectly permissible for state legislatures to provide for a "religious exemption" to their immunization laws, it is illegal and unconstitutional to limit that religious exemption only to those persons who belong to an "organized religion."

For more legal information you can go to


post #43 of 114

I don't know if I have any books that are specifically adoption that talk about AP. I feel strongly that adopted kids need AP, perhaps even more than other kids. I think it helps with the separation from the birthmother (which may or may not be traumatic, just depends on the child and how thin the veil is or isn't), and I also think it just helps cement bonds within the adoptive family, and prevents other issues from creeping in.

It's been exciting for me to watch a deep bond already developing between Dallin and us. I was just thinking a week or so ago how secure he is--I can see it in his mannerisms, his looks, etc. I can just tell the he feels totally at home, totally confident. It's a wonderful thing to see. I credit it to nursing and co-sleeping and to having his needs promptly responded to. I can't even explain it, but I know that those things have made a difference. He already shows a preference for me over other people (and is starting to prefer dh too).

I love The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting. That's my current favorite book, and I think the authors do such a good job of illustrating what babies need and why. I love the chapters on the family bed and feeding. I think it would benefit anyone to read that book. Perhaps they could read The Discipline Book by Dr. Sears, because the focus is a little bit away from AP and more on gentle discpline, but AP principles are assumed. Or they could try his new book, The Successful Child.

Do they feel like his problems are adoption-related? Was he adopted at birth? It seems unusual to me to have such problems in a child so young who was adopted at birth, because at that point, children don't understand adoption at all. It may be more of a temperament thing, or perhaps he has picked up on some insecurities that they have about their own parenthood and relationship to him and has reacted to that.

I know that the toddler age is very hard, because they can't talk about what they are experiencing. It might help to find a counselor experienced in adoption issues. There is a book called Toddler Adoption, the Weaver's Craft, that might have some good ideas, even though it's really about children adopted as toddlers. I know that when children are adopted at this age, they encourage lots of holding and AP-type practices to help in the transition to the new home.

I have a 43-year-old sil (not adopted) who I'm convinced has some form of an "attachment disorder". I would like to know what happened in her early childhood, because she is really messed up. From toddlerhood, she has had an extremely intense fear of separation, to the point where she had huge tantrums when her dad would leave for work in the morning, she refused to go to school. Dh said that she cried every single morning through HIGH SCHOOL at having to leave the house. She hasn't been able to handle anyone breaking apart the nuclear family, and so has fallen apart when each of her siblings have gotten married. After 7 years, she still doesn't speak to me because she's so upset that I took her brother away. When her sis left on a mission, she refused to come to the farewell because she was so upset that she was leaving. She has a very low self-esteem, refuses to allow her picture to be taken, is extremely controlling, etc. She still lives at home with her elderly mother. I have watched her for years, and I feel that she is not secure in her attachments to her family, and that is why she holds on so tightly, and can't handle natural separation. This has been debilitating for her. (Yet, she's a lawyer working in family court!) Other family members say she's been like this as long as they can remember. Something traumatic must have happened to her to destroy her trust, very early on.

I don't know why I rambled on about that, it just came to my mind. She probably should have been AP'd!
post #44 of 114
Hi chumani! I use the herbal remedies instead of the antibiotics. They work on their own. He especially doesn't need it if he is getting over thrush. If you were to take an acidophilus/bifidus type Pro-Biotic, that would help strenthen him against the yeast. Spencer is feeling better today! Woohoo! That means we slept last night! Good luck
post #45 of 114
Is it everything you dreamed it would be? What has been your biggest surprise? What is one of your favorite things about your baby?

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this sooner. Is anyone else having trouble getting onto the boards since they switched servers? I never know if I'm going to be able to visit here or not.

I think I had a pretty healthy expectation of motherhood beforehand, so I'd have to say that while it hasn't exactly been a fairy tale, it has been pretty wonderful and there haven't been any real disappointments. It has been a bigger transition than I anticipated. I did think that perhaps the long wait would protect me from some of the harsher realities of parenthood, but even when that didn't happen, I think I've handled it pretty well and haven't come crashing down over it.

I think the biggest surprise would have to be how I myself have reacted to things. I knew there would be sleepless nights, I knew there would be fussy days, but I didn't expect that I would feel so impatient with them. I've been surprised to find out that I do have limits. It has surprised me to discover that I need a break sometimes--I had a vision of the perfect AP mom who never wants to be away from her baby even for a few minutes. I've been kind of (though not completely) surprised by how much he can cry. Again, I had this idea that AP babies don't cry as much. The level of giving required has taken me aback sometimes.

One of my favorite things about my baby is how beautiful he is. Dh and I could have never created such a photogenic child (it's not just our bias, because people are constantly telling us how gorgeous he is). Lest I sound totally superficial by only thinking about looks (lol!), I would also have to say that I love his smile, I love the cute noises he makes now that he's trying to "talk", I love it when he kicks his legs or pulls them up to his chest, I love when he pats my arm or grasps my finger, and I love how he's totally thrilled to be around ME all day long!

I think everyone else should answer these questions too!
post #46 of 114
Thank you Chumani for that website, I will look into it. I'm glad to find some new resources that will help me establish my case & feel like I've been thorough about it.

Laurel- My nephew spent his first few days in the hospital with his birth mother who had him in the nursery and then b/c his birth grandmother (the bio. father's mother) tried to kidnap him from the hospital they had to send him to an emergency foster care for a couple of weeks while the birth mother tried to find his birth father (who had skipped town) to sign the papers. It was a royal mess and we weren't sure if he would make it to our family. It was great for BIL/SIL to finally get him but was so last minute that only SIL went to get him and unlike the first baby she didn't (want) to meet the birth mother for fear of ds being taken back. He was a really sweet, good natured baby but SIL is one that feels easily overwhelmed and is very into the little detailed things of womanhood (perfect home, dinner cooked always, little handouts- not to say any of these things are wrong..I wish I could be more like her in many ways) that she's found very difficult to balance with the demands of two children.

They started taking vacations when he was 6 mo.s old and leaving him with MIL and others for long periods of time. He's to the point now that he hates to let her out of his sight and like I said cries almost non-stop which compounds the yelling and frustration on the part of SIL. I really feel like he's going to have serious problems if things aren't addressed now. Thanks for the suggestions. I guess it's better to just say something and risk offending vs. not offering the resources. I don't think she'd be totally opposed since she's talked to me about stuff before so I think I'll look for an opportunity to interject some things that are helping/have helped with ds.
post #47 of 114
Wow, Drewsmom! All those things you mentioned seem like major red flags to me. There was a possibility that our ds would have to be in foster care before coming home to us, and our caseworker was telling me that it was no big deal because babies that little don't know the difference anyway. Baloney! It's important to have as few transitions as possible for a baby before going to his permanent home. So, this child was with several different people before coming to his parents, having to adjust to different personalities, home environments, etc. I'm sure he would have picked up on the tension his birthmom was feeling in relation to the birthfather. Then, he would have gone to a mother who was paranoid about losing him. That can affect her ability to bond--she may have distanced herself to keep from risking hurt, and he may have picked up on that. This is an area where practicing AP could have helped her overcome that distance. Leaving him at such a young age is both a problem and a symptom. To me, it's a symptom of an attachment that's lacking. I know hardly any parents, even mainstream, that would leave a baby so young for so long. That's a sign that something's wrong. And then, the long separation is only going to compound the distance and frighten the baby.

I think you're right, if they don't do something about this now, there will be many more problems in the future. She needs to understand that the task right now should be to regain his trust, and that could be a very long project. If it were me, I would probably take him back to infancy and give him all the time and attention I'd give a very young baby. But I'm not an expert, so don't quote me.

There is one other book that might be good. It's called Launching a Baby's Adoption. They're past the infant stage that it focuses on, but it would be good to show them what he would have needed and perhaps shed some light on his current behavior.
post #48 of 114
Whew, I thought our computer had konked out on us. They think they caught the two snipers! That makes me so happy and willing to go shopping today yeah.

Dh and I were having this conversation the other day. I feel like the terrorist and the attacks on our homeland are equivalent to the Gadianton robbers in the Book of Mormon. So do you think that this will only continue and get worse as peoples morals decline to serve as a reminder to us like robbers or Lamanites were to the Nephites or do you think this really has been going on a long time. DH pointed out that this is what people must've thought in the 60s-70s with "free love" and the 7 day war wtih Israel.

Yipes, baby's crawling on me...gotta go!
post #49 of 114
Hi everybody!

I'm Lisa's friend, and boy isn't this place fantastic?! I'm so glad Lisa told me about it (THANKS LISA!!)...I've read through this thread and what a wonderful spirit is here!

I'm Elaine, Mom to two beautiful girls. Our oldest is Nicole. She's a whole 22 months and Heidi is 6 weeks. It's been quite the adjustment for me these past two weeks and reading your comments about conference and parenting is really what I need.

I know very little about AP and I'm looking forward to learning more about it from you ladies. DH and I have been reading a parenting manual (and listening to CD's) that we bought from a counselor and therapist that we know out West. He is a former Bishop and teaches the parenting classes during Sunday School in my parents' ward. I've looked forward to his classes everytime I visit them-they've helped me SO MUCH! Alot of this gentle discipline I hear you speak of is also talked about in his books. I love my parents very much, so I'm not bashing them here, but in our home growing up much of the time we were controlled by anger. I find myself (especially these last two weeks as I've been emotionally and physically spent!) falling into that pattern with Nicole. I get angry when she throws her food, I get angry when she climbs on the table or smears my chapstick all over her face or eats the vaseline...or...or ....or! His book clearly says that anger is our last effort to control a situation that we have no control over and that the child it's directed at feels that there is something wrong with them. I want my children to grow up happy and confident! I've been doing so well with some of the prinicples in these books....but right now, I can see it all falling apart. I guess I just wanted to say that reading this thread has given me new strength to begin anew. Today we went for a walk (I think I got a sunburn!) and things have felt so right. You know, I'm so grateful that I know these things. My Mom tellsl me all the time that she would have done a better job had she the tools that I have available to me.

Oh, also, on the topic of modeling our parenting after our Heavenly Father, I've been thinking of that ALOT these past few months since my last visit to CA. We were in Bro. Jones class and he was talking about how one time he went through the story of Adam and Eve while they were in the garden and was able to pick out 120 some-odd parenting principles. He shared just a few of them with us in that class. Just an example: After Adam had partaken of the fruit and he knew that Father was coming to visit he hid. Father said, "Adam? Adam? Adam?" We all know the story.....well, Br. Jones talked about respecting boundaries, and how we need to respect the boundaries of our children. FAther didn't say, "Come here you little turkey, you can't hide from me, don't you know that I can see all? Don't you think I know what you did?" He called for Adam. Who knows how long he waited while Adam built up the courage to come out to talk to his Father? But when he did come our Father lovingly asked why he was hiding. When the offense was on the table he asked Why did you do that? He was kind in serving the consequences. In Moses it says that Father helped Adam prepare to leave the Garden of Eden by clothing him. What a loving act!! When I read that I was so humbled. I want to be that kind of parent! I know that we can learn so much from the scriptures....I just need to start reading again! Thank you ladies for sharing...I'm truly motivated today to go study and to be gentle and loving. Someone (I have no idea who!) said that by the time our children become parents they will have had thousands and thousands of hours of parenting classes. We being the teachers. They watch, they learn, they do!

Can't wait to talk to you guys again.
post #50 of 114
Hey, Elaine!

Glad you made it here! Welcome!
post #51 of 114
OK, I need some help with a frustrating issue. Awhile back, we were talking about how we sometimes feel so alone at church because of how we parent and how when we bring up some of beliefs and ideals, it seems to offend others or make them uncomfortable. Then, we determined that we need to just respect everyone's choices and to realize that we're not better than anyone else, etc. I agree with that; I'm just having a hard time putting it into practice with one particular person.

I've always struggled with my sil's parenting style. But before I had Dallin, I just kept my mouth shut because it's her life, her kids, etc. But now that I have Dallin, it's becoming harder and harder because we're actually talking about parenting--and she's making observations on mine. I find it so hard to not open my mouth and speak up for my beliefs when she says something in reference to my child that I don't agree with.

After a conversation on how my son is "manipulating" me because he wants to nurse for 45 minutes each time, I realized that we can't talk about *anything* because our whole fundamental framework of what parenting is all about is so vastly different. We're nowhere near on the same page. Our last two conversations have ended in heated debate bordering on outright arguing. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about discipline, sleeping arrangements/habits, vaccines and childhood illness. Whatever it is, we don't agree.

My mom says, "Well, just don't talk about parenting at all." That sounds great, but when parenting is 90% of both your lives, it's pretty hard to talk about anything else. I feel like I can do pretty well at not criticizing her out loud, but how do I handle the times when it's me that gets criticized (whether directly or subtly), and that urge to both defend and educate rises up so quickly? Also, I am not liking the way I am starting to feel inside, because whenever I even think about her now, I feel so judgmental, and I feel frustration rising. I realize that I have a huge mote in my eye, and how can Heavenly Father validate me in my own parenting when I have this attitude toward her?

Any ideas?

She's a wonderful person, active member of the church and heavily involved in service to others. I know she loves her kids. We've been pretty close in spite of our differences. She loves a good debate, and I get hooked into it every time. (I doubt she's too offended by our conversations; it's just me that can't stand how I feel afterwards.)
post #52 of 114
Audreyjoy, your pm box is full... so here's my repsonse:
WAHHH! Yes, we were in the right place, we got there early and hung out for a while... I didn't see anyone who looked like anyone (LOL) after an hour or so... so we started wandering to look at the ducks and stuff. We came back after a while to check and by then I was sure I had the date wrong or it had been cancelled or whatever since I didn't double check the board before we left. I honestly don't know what time we were there... I know I left my house around 10:30 so we probably got there a little before 11, waited around for an hour and then wandered, coming back around 1ish? Bah!! Someday, Audrey, we're going to meet each other!!! Were you able to meet up with anyone else? Is it just me with the crummy luck? :

Lisa, I won't hi-jack your thread... we just got back from staying with Eric's aunt and uncle... and whooooaaaah... I can re-late. I have a big vent. But I'll restrain myself. His aunt sounds like your sil. I don't have any answers, I feel the same way you do... it's an ongoing struggle with almost all of dh's family.
post #53 of 114
I just have one thing about your quandry Lisa. I think it's definitely OK to share and educate gently. The whole reason I'm here is b/c I had a sister who was able to do that. Although I was not a parent yet, but we as a family as a whole were very judgmental of the "weird" way she was doing stuff. When asked she would explain and say where/from whom she got the research/information. The only thing that was annoying was when you weren't asking for information and she would seem like she was trying to push it on you. Somehow I don't see you being that way.

I think that it would be much harder for her to share her info now that I already am a parent. I think people who are parenting a certain way are looking for justification that it's OK to....spank, etc. and that's why things can get heated. For example when sis and I talk sometimes we'll relate experiences having talked to my mom and while my mom is basically telling me to do things more like my sis., my sis reports that after having talked with mom about the same thing my mom was defensive and started to debate the validity of what my sis is doing. I think it's just b/c she thinks it's a reflection on her parenting.

If she's questioning directly the reason why you do things I think that it's more than OK to let her know why and just explain that you're glad that things are working for her the way they are but this is what works for you. I truly do think that people need to do what's best for them and their child's personalities. I have friends who are much more strict and need more structure in their day, for example, than myself.
post #54 of 114
Lisa, i can relate, as well. the only thing i can suggest is to let your sil know how uncomfortable you feel after your conversations. let her know you don;t like the spirit of these debates. let her know you know she is a good mom, and she is serving her children in a righteous way, just let her know you also have strong beliefs on how you want to parent, and you also feel you are serving the needs of your baby in a righteous way. agree to disagree. that;s the only thing you can do. in a loving way, tell her her relationship to you is of greater importance than all of your combined parenting practices. it is part of agency, you know, to search, ponder, and pray about how to raise our little ones. there are many "right" ways to do this. try to be respectful of her style, let her know you respect her style, and ask that she respect yours, as well.

i have a sil, well, actually 2, who parent vastly differently than do I. Luckily we do not debate it, as they both do not have personalities like that. But I do hear a lot about it from my mil. I just smile, offer some information, if necessery, and grit my teeth!

One time before one of my sil's had her baby, I was talking to her and my fil. I was explaining the natural course and style my parenting fit into. I was explaining some of my core philosophies on parenting. My mil walked by the room and said, "It sound like you're either talking yourself into or out of something." So I guess in that family if you have same core beliefs about parenting and are not just flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants or whims- of-your-heart you get zero validity, although it seems it should be reversed???

Good luck in this arena!
post #55 of 114
I've been thinking about it and wanted tos ay something that goes along with ldsapmom's statement. I think it's perfectly OK to say something to your sil explaining your feelings. Use "I statements" to help get across your feelings. If something is really bothering me with a person I talk to them. It's not easy but it helps to illustrate for her how you feel and that you want things to work. How about something like: I feel very judged for my parenting practices when we talk. I respect the way that you feel about parenting and I'm glad that it works for you. I feel very strongly about the things that I've looked into re: parenting and would ask that we can agree to disagree without it becoming a sore spot for us. ??
post #56 of 114
OOh I have missed you all sooooooo much!!

We finally got the computer hooked up to the net and here I go.
Dh did get the job he really, really wanted in Portland. Wilsonville acutally if anyone is familiar with the area. He is the engineer in charge of paper path on the Xerox Tektronix printer. So now we have the nicest apartment we have ever had. It is so close to Xerox he walks to work every day. I love Wilsonville, cuz it is a nice small town and our ward seems great so far. We went for the first time on Sunday and I was asked Monday to teach the TFOT lesson in RS this Sunday! Yikes, but I am excited. I actually like teaching lessons. I think it is fun. But then, just ask Spring--I am weird that way.
I really don't know what to tell you. I am terrible at that kind of thing because I get sucked into a debate so quickly. I haven't had anyone too close to me critizing my parenting too much. At least not to the degree you describe. I think I like Drewsmom's suggestion though. Make it clear to her that your parenting style will not, under any circumstances change. And that you don't like the way you feel after a parenting discussion you feel awful. She may not realize the way you feel. Or she may think that you are still "rosy" with the glow of a new baby, and assume that you have not done the research that you have, in fact, done. Best of luck and lots of hugs.

Love you all,
post #57 of 114
Or she may think that you are still "rosy" with the glow of a new baby, and assume that you have not done the research that you have, in fact, done.

I think this is exactly what she thinks. If there's one thing that bugs me, it's the "I have more kids than you and have been a mother longer than you so I know better" mentality. I'm so glad no one here does that! Sure, there are lots of things I'm learning, and I know lots of things will change with each child. But I'm not doing this because I'm an inept new mom who thinks she has to spoil or overprotect her babe. I'm doing it because I honestly feel it's best.

I'll respond more to everyone later. Gotta go finish dinner!
post #58 of 114
I know that dynamicswith SIL must be different from a sister relationship, but my sister calls me granola earthy mom or something like that and she and I aren't always on the same page.

Once in a while I feel like I have to soapbox, so I give some warning ahead of time and let them (her and dh) know--also, I make suggestions like, well, does she need to nurse (if she's talking on the phone and dd is screaming). She's a loving mom and is doing her best under all their circumstances.

I don't know if I said anything useful. I would say that maybe you can find scriptural backup for something you believe (gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned), etc. I heard of a mom who has recently read a book called Christlike Parenting, and I'd really like to get my hands on it.
post #59 of 114

I've had a similar situation, but with a friend, not a relative. She is a labor and delivery nurse. When I decided to plan a homebirth, I told her, and she had that opportunity to express how strongly she feels that I am making the wrong decision. I told her that I know she is only concerned for me and my baby and that I appreciate her concern, but that I also have to follow my heart and the spiritual confirmations I have received. We then agreed to not discuss my homebirth decision again. Since then she has never mentioned a word about my birth plans. She will ask how I'm feeling physically, and that's it. It has been so nice to not have those awkward conversations anymore.

So, my point is simply that giving yourself space, and agreeing not to discuss parenting anymore might be a good idea. You shouldn't be subjected to constant criticism and negativity about your parenting. Good luck!
post #60 of 114
Can I ask you all something? It's totally non-related to this convo. What do you think about the potential war on Iraq? Do you remember the prophet saying something about it in GC? My Dad mentioned seeing a report on CNN saying something to the effect that the LDS church's stance was opposed to the war (which I highly doubt the church would come straight out and say something like that) but we'd support the president whatever he chose to do. Do you remember anything about it and what are your personal views? Sorry to hijack the thread for a moment but we were flying home from UT Conf. Saturday and I'm still forming my opinion re: this.
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