FRIEND's Father BIG spanker

[jentilla]

I didn't want this problem to get lost in the other spanking thread.

My DD is 18 mo old and her friend "sweetie" is 2 wks older so they are very close and just the cutest together. We (parents) swap babysitting a lot and we just feel like sweetie is our 2nd DD. Both of us are AP, pro extended BF, co-slept (1st yr), homeschooling, & we cloth dipe, etc. We go to the same LLL and church and do lots together (mom and I).

Problem is friend's DH is very strict and a big spanker.

At first it (his sternest and verbal harshness) seemed..well..not our place to interfere...and we started to feel like super laid back heathen parents and we just laughed it off. Then, we observed some butt swatting and Dad pulled sweetie's feet straight out from under her so she landed hard on her butt. On another occasion, I dropped by to witness him throw a soft toy at her from across the room when she didn't listen. At a park outing with LLL she was not allowed to get down off of his lap and play (he didn't want her to get dirty).

Friend's DH quotes "I'm not raising a child, I'm raising an adult."
He is also frustrated that she hasn't learned to pick up her toys yet.
They started potty training at 14 mo (I know some do it), but I feel it's a lot of coercion and she has shown no signs except that when they sit her on the pot she will go -sometimes.

Then yesterday they met up with a mutal friend in another town and the friend called to tell my that she cannot believe the abusive way the Dad treats sweetie. In a 2.45 min period she was spanked 5x's and 1 was for not walking right by his side in the mall, dropping her sippy cup (which he said she threw), and not sitting still on his lap. When she began crying and then kissed and hugged him- he said she was manipulating him!

I have seen Mom mimick some of the lesser disciplines practices-potty sitting and foot pulling. I have said things about his expectations to Mom and about the throwing things, but it seems to be getting worse the older the girls get.

I am so stressed out and don't know how to deal with this. My DH and I love sweetie so much and we know her parents do, but Dad is so out of line with this behavior.

Help!!!!!!

[Jennifer Z]

Wow, I don't know quite what to say honestly. He sounds extreme and, from your description, it sounds like it is escalating.

Can you talk to the mom about it? Is she on board with this level of violence towards the child or does she have any control? (can she give an ultimatum to the husband on his behavior...she will leave if he doesn't get counciling for anger management/parenting classes or doesn't curb the extremem behavior)

Is it to the level that you and your friend can call SRS/child protective services? As hard as it might be, it would probably be good to call and at least ask if that is a level that constitues abuse. I know that a lot of abuse/neglect is so much worse, but maybe an intervention will stop the escalation and make him realize his expectations are unrealistic and his methods are cruel.

I would not, under any circumstances, leave my child alone with this man (or his wife if she supports the violence) and make it very clear to this man that if he so much as touches my child you will be filing charges against him. (so he doesn't try and 'help' you if you are at a gathering together.)

I would probably also not let my child be around this girl if the father is present. We have had to quit being around a certain friend as much because I do not want my child to witness a parent hitting their kids...it is disturbing for me as an adult to see it, it would really be upsetting and confusing to a child.

What a rotten situation. I just can't comprehend how a parent can hit a child in the name of discipline and think it is anything other than cruel.

[jentilla]

I don't believe mom would ever touch my DD. She is very laid back and really sweet. FDH is her only boyfriend/husband & I think she's very submissive, etc. We don't however have DD go there to play or stay w/out me or at night when he is there. My DD seems very wary of him anyway and doesn't respond well to a lot of yelling.

[annettemarie]

Wow. That is a big problem. It sounds like he has read "To Train Up a Child," an absolutely evil book by the Pearls. I don;t quite know what to say.

[Vermillion]

wow...

18 months is so very young to be punished in my opinion, especially this harshly. In fact, I don’t even think this man is punishing his daughter, it sounds more like he is just an angry, abusive man taking his frustrations out on a baby for MINOR/normal developmental things.

Sorry, I really don’t have any suggestions or experience with a situation like this, I just wanted to reply.

This is a very sad situation, my heart breaks for this little girl reading the things you wrote. I really hope her mother wakes up and tells dad to get some help, and fast! Sounds like he has major anger issues.

[katallen]

I think that the level that he is disciplining her is probably much worse than what you see and what the mother tells you. They are not going to tell or show the whole story for the public. I think that you should call child protection services because the mother is starting to use these techniques, the father is escalating, and the child is going to become use to the spanking and they will have to escalate even further. I think that it is very telling that the baby will not pick up her toys but will kiss and hug in order to try to get safety for herself. I don't think kissing and hugging usually comes out at 18 months on such a high level. If she is not developing like she should but seems normal than you have to wonder what worse things are going on.
I also think you should not let her watch your child anymore. She won't stand up for her own child so she probably won't stand up for yours if he decides to spank her, and she is starting to use his techniques which means she believes in them and would not think it wrong to use them on your child.
They are going to escalate and things will get a lot worse. Probably there have already been bruises that looked suspicious in the diaper area but is not there will be soon because two is a hard age, it is when the most murders occur at the hands of the parents. If you are even a tiny bit suspicious that abuse is occuring than get the poor baby some help ASAP.

[jentilla]

I just reread my post to see if I made it sound worse or something, but I didn't and I feel even more upset now. Is this really cause for me to involve outside sources? Should I say something? Is she not developing because she doesn't pick up toys? My DD doesn't. I mean she will kind of start to but then get more stuff out! I'm more stressed than ever!

[annettemarie]

You said you go to the same church- could you talk to your pastor or children's minister?

[jentilla]

We've only really just started going to this church the past few months and are still members of our old church. i'm not sure how AP the church is.

[Trinitty]

Wow, that sounds really bad.

I can't believe he's hitting a baby like that. What do you mean, pulling the legs out from under her? From the spanking, like, he's pulling her arm up and hitting her butt and her legs go out from under her?

I guess I'm a bit of a Dr. Laura when it comes to some of these issues, any man who hasn't already married the woman who bore his child has some serious responsibility issues, in my opinion.

He sounds twisted. Can you appeal to your friend? Can you outline you concerns to her in a way that would really show her just how extreme and wrong this is??? Sometimes when we're in the middle of something, it's hard to see what it is, perhaps if you listed the incidents just as you have to us, she might realise and seek help????

I'm so sorry and sad to hear about his, that poor little girl.

If you can't convince your friend, I think you'll have to call in for help yourself. Will they take her away though, or will they warn the parents and force them into classes?

Let us know what you do.

Trin.

[jentilla]

guess I'm a bit of a Dr. Laura when it comes to some of these issues, any man who hasn't already married the woman who bore his child has some serious responsibility issues, in my opinion.


They are married, have been for like 7 or 8 years and he was her first boyfriend in HS.

The pulling of the legs is like if she were standing up on the couch and wouldn't sit down after being asked he just grabbed her legs and jerked so she fell down hard. Now, obviously this didn't hurt on the soft couch, but I've seen them do this in a shopping cart and it's really the whole sort of VERY ROUGH behavior and what lies behind it that bothers me.

Physically, there is no cause for CPS to take this child and calling outside help will only create a firestorm within both our families. My mom (she works with at-risk families) advised me to be on alert and try to express my opinion when the opportunity arises. She suggested that if this sort of thing happens agin in front of me to speak for "sweetie" like : Daddy when you hit me it hurst and makes me feel bad and confused and I'm just a baby, your expectations etc.. Give her a voice since she can't talk yet.

Although my friend seems to be allowing this, I DO have confidence that she would NEVER touch my DD and DD will not be over there when the Dad is home. I think they are both educated enought to realize one should never physically discipline someone else's child.

I need to convince my other friend to allowe me to talk to my friend about how upset she was at Dad hitting sweetie and then maybe I can explain how we are both worried about his behavior.

[Trinitty]

Oh! Sorry. I thought you called him her boyfriend, my mistake.

Yes, that does sound rough!

I don't want this little one's life to get any harder, so, CPS might not be the best route.... and as you said, if your Mom knows that they wouldn't act, then, there's no point.

I think the idea of speaking for "sweetie" the next time you SEE this happen would really help.

How is he, personally, with you? Do you two talk much? Is he reasonable? Does your husband ever talk with him or see this happen? It might be better coming from a man to another man, highlighting just how insane it is for a Daddy to be hitting his little baby girl.

Do you think that if you really stressed just how LITTLE she is that it might appeal to him? I'm kind of flailing in the dark I think.... I can't really understand the mental process of a person who hits little babies.

Ummmm.

Is he into science? Could you come at this from a "developement of the human animal" kind of angle? That a little one like this cannot CONCEIVE of complex rules and commands and understand the punishments when she doesn't perform because her BRAIN cannot make those connections yet?

Trin.

[mammastar2]

I'm having a hard time figuring out from your post what kind of a guy he is (other than a baby-hitter ), and what might work vs what would fall on deaf ears.

If it's a question of his having expectations that aren't age-appropriate, and you think he might be open to learning more, maybe you could buy one of those books about "your child at 2" or something like that, setting out where kids are usually at developmentally at that age, and lend it to him, mentioning how helpful you find it 'because it's so hard to tell what's normal and what's behaviour that needs addressing.'

Re raising an "adult," as he put it, I put a link in this forum a while back to a news story about a new study by Statistics Canada, showing that children who are physically disciplined develop problems later on - you may want to chase it down.

I don't know if directing these to dad would help or not: it sounds like he may be pretty controlling and sure of himself (what you say of the relationship with the mom), which doesn't bode well.

Poor little sweetie. Good for you for wanting to help - it's a fine line, since you don't get shut out of your involvement in this little girl's life because you tick off dad with your ideas.

[peaceful herbivore]

Maybe one should point out to this person that as an adult, there is no situation where someone can legally hit you without breaking the law. It is called assault or assault and battery. The "raising an adult" arguement doesn't really work for me.

I personally would not allow my child to be around this person. It is unfortunate that the mom is someone you like, and while I wouldn't cut off communication all together, I would probably distance myself from people who supported or condoned the hitting of a child. Unfortunately in this society, that is going to mean distancing yourself from quite a few people, but it you work to find other likeminded parents who at least agree with you on that aspect of things, you haven't lost a thing.

Ultimately you can not control or change anyone but yourself, and while I find your desire to help the situation commendable, there is honestly only so much you can do. Please do not feel like you have failed if you can't change things, try your best to talk, offer suggestions, etc, but if it doesn't help, you have two choices: call child protection services if you are really worried, or cut your losses.

Take care and good luck whatever you choose.

[mommyofshmoo]

Just an idea- maybe you could say your piece to the couple.

It might not make anything better, and it would probably end your firendship, but it might give them something to think about that might settle in over time.

I'm not sure about this because I have NO experience in "intervention" type behaviors, but if the common friend and you approach them together and say you've both seen the agression, explain normal developmental stuff, and both are wondering what to do, maybe it would help.

I would suggest they take a parenting class, suggest he take an anger management class.

I have no idea - it might make things worse, but I think these people deserve to know that thier behaviour is not considered "normal" or "accepable" by their peers.

[I'm A CocoNut]

I wish that I had some good advice to offer....I'm so sorry for sweetie...

There were 2 no-spank websites listed on another thread about spanking--My 2yo broke the tv.....that may offer some advice? There was also that editiorial recetnly by Peggy O'Mara about 'no hitting' that was really great...it sounds like you may need to be careful about putting him on the defensiveand therefore making him angry...just offer this 'great new info you just read and thought you'd share as trying to figure out appropriate ways to respond to your child is so tough and we just need all thehelp we can get...hahaha' Or 'guess what i just learned?? There's this great article/book/whatever that offers all these other alternatives to spanking .... I know it is so tough sometimes and we get so frustrated and angry...but they are still babies youknow and blah blah..' in a really friendly voice....

Or maybe just trying to get to him through your friend...not necessarily in an attack mode, but sort of what I just mentioned...if she is submisive, she may just defend him. But if you can educate her and allow her to become empowered and stand up for herself and therefore sweetie, then maybe, just maybe...

I don't know....good luck to you...and to sweetie.
Jennifer

[jentilla]

Thanks for the support mamas!

Well next week I will see this mom quite a bit b/c she IS watching my DD for 2 hours a couple mornings next week. I have no choice since I have to be in a class and my regular sitter is out of town. I DON"T feel she is in any danger with mom. I am, however, going to work the spanking into the convo. either by talking about and convo my DH and I had about the subject and just see what she says and then proceed. I reallly feel the problem is with her DH, but she doesgo along with the behavior so I want to try and get to her first. I REALLY appreciate the help and responses. I will keep everyone updated.

[Piglet68]

It's extremely difficult to step into someone's family and start criticizing the way they parent. Also, I think involving CPS or something is too extreme an action to take. That is not to be considered lightly. My personal feeling is that spanking is not considered harmful at all by the mainstream, so you are going to have a hard time making a case. They deal with severe abuse cases and can barely keep up with those. Kwim?

I think that the best way to approach this is as a parent concerned about your OWN child. Since your friend is sitting for you, you have EVERY RIGHT to discuss discipline as it relates to how she is going to treat your child. You might say something along the lines of "We do not hit in our family and I just want to make sure you understand that since I see that you use spanking as part of your discipline techniques and I want to make it clear that I don't want my DD spanked". Something along those lines. Then hopefully, this might spark a discussion of the spanking itself. TRY not to be hard on the DH when you talk, because if you put your friend on the defensive, she'll spend too much mental energy defending him and not hearing you. Put things in terms of "well, we researched hte issue and came to the decision that spanking wasn't best for our DD and how we wish to handle discipline" etc...make it about YOU, not her. The contrast may be glaringly obvious to her upon hearing this, or she may ask for more information.

I will also say that personally, I will not let my children be around anybody who hits kids. As far as I'm concerned, this is akin to them witnessing violence on TV or anywhere else and I don't want them exposed like that. If I were you (and I'm not, so take this for what it's worth) I would have a talk with your friend and say that I don't want my child witnessing other children being hit and physically punished. I would insist that friends' DH not be around, or if he is that he not hit the child. It may be hard to do this, but IMO my kids are worth it. It must be very confusing and upsetting for a child raised in a gentle home to witness this. And if SOMEBODY doesn't point out to them that this is wrong (and then try to explain why it is being permitted by everyone around them) they are going ot assume that this is normal behaviour. NOT the type of healthy relationship I wish to model for my children.

[Petranis]

Could it be that the dad is extremely stressed and depressed maybe and in need of some help? It may be an idea to try and gently broach this with your friend. To me it seems very excessive "Pearl" stuff to spank such a young child or in fact baby.

[KellyB]

I have an 18 month old, too...and a close friend that treats her 23 mo son in ways I find appalling.
We openly discuss our different parenting techniques, and only when circing was discussed in depth did it turn into a real argument....
She knows I'm kinda freaked out by hitting, and doesn't spank her son around me or my son any longer (my son burst into tears once when she did it).
My friend is a reasonable person, though...I can tell her in all honesty that I'm not entirely sure I'm completely right...
Who knows?
Maybe I'm raising a selfish brat, and she a responsible member of society?
After saying that, though, I can really tell the truth about how I feel when I see grownups hitting children or babies.