FRIEND's Father BIG spanker - Page 2

[Amys1st]

A very good discussion,

Last year when DD was just over 2, I brought my friend a meal since she just had a baby. Her Dd is 1 mo older than my DD and she had a newborn.

She and her DH spank the older one and have since she was about 15 mos old. She warned her when she was doing something not to do it. Then she said if she did not stop, she would get a spanking. Then when she did not stop, she told her she was spanking her and did it. It was a couple of slpas on her rear end and it spooked me.

Well, it spooked me so you can imagine what it did to my DD. She was very clingy the rest of the time we were there and semi winey. She is never like this and she would not go near my friend either. She woke up a few times in the night that week as well.

Also, that day her DD would hit when she got angry. Thankfully she did not hit my DD or we would have cut the visit short.

It took me a few days to tell my DH since he cannot stand her DH anyway and he was very angry when they told us they spanked their DD matter of factly at 15 mos. Also when she called me to thank me for the dinner, she was saying how wonderful it was and how they both enjoyed a hot homemade meal so much. She then said "DH even said to me- why can't you cook like this?" I know she meant it as a compliment to me but all I could think of- was Wow what a jerk!! Don't ever compare your wife to someone else

[Red]

So, if he's this abusive in front of you,imagine what happens when you['re not there.

If someone did this to your child, you'd make a call right?

And I 'd do it now. Anonmously. (I hate it when I totally forget how to spell something.) Explain that you're a neighbor who's seen him swap the babe, pull her feet out from under her, etc. If he's not meaning to abuse, he's apt to be frightened enough to change his ways.

This is a horrible situation!! To speak up is to maybe lose contact, to stay silent is to condone this babe's abuse.

Speak up. Just do. Save that babe another day of horror.

Then, when they confide in you that the authorities were called, inundate them with helpful books and magazines, take mom to the library andhelp her pick out great books. Be supportive and helpful and know you saved that babe.

[jentilla]

Maybe I'm raising a selfish brat, and she a responsible member of society?


Well, I 've been unable to broach the subject b/c my DD seems to want to throw amazing fits each time we see them. The 1st time we met my friend and "sweetie" at the park and my dd was slightly tired & hungry, but since it was a nice day I wanted her to get out. Then today after church we had an easter egg hunt, baby chicks, all that and my dd was again tired and hungry and wanted to run and bascially be a toddler! We went off and nursed and had some mommy/dd time since she had been in the nursery for a hour. Well it didn't help too much and so we left. Thing is, "sweetie" had been in the nursery for 3 hours and was probably tried and hungry too. She kinda of just stood there and stared off while my dd was all over the place. At teh time, I'm like how can I say anything about spanking when my dd is out of control and "sweetie" is so docile. I got really mad at myself (for being so prideful!) and a little a dd (for not being boosting my ego!). But how can I be credible when it looks like they are doing a better job at "teaching" their child to behave?

[Piglet68]

jentilla, I know how you feel. I have a friend who spanks. we finally got to visit (we live very far away) and that day my DD was melting down all over the place. she'd been napping when we got there and I woke her up to get her out of the car and for the rest of the day she was clingy adn crying at the drop of ahat. needless to say I was so upset that my "punishment-free" child was coming across as a basket case when her spanked children were being so well behaved. my mother was there and even commented that my DD cried more that day than the week mother had been visiting us. but still....anyways.

like i said, i think you should forget about telling them how to raise their child. just stick to YOUR child. and, since your friend watches your child, you have every right to tell her that you don't want any spanking in her presence.

[Vito's Mommy]

>Physically, there is no cause for CPS to take this child and calling outside help will only create a firestorm within both our families<

Jentilla, I don't mean to be full of drama or even abraisive, but what exactly what needs to happen to this child before it's ok to call CPS? (I know that's a big step)

I wouldn't worry to much about keeping a relationship w/people like this. Plus, you can always remain anonymous if it were to come to that.

>I think they are both educated enought to realize one should never physically discipline someone else's child.<

They are not "educated" enough to know that it's not ok to hit their own child, let alone someone else's.

You are in a tough spot. But IMO, someone needs to speak for the baby before something bad happens. I've been there, but it wasn't physical abuse as it is in this case. It was drugs and alcohol. I did what I felt was right. You can only do what you feel is right to do. I wish you luck...glad sweetie has you guys to make some of her day sunny!

[KellyB]

Originally Posted by jentilla

Maybe I'm raising a selfish brat, and she a responsible member of society?


Well, I 've been unable to broach the subject b/c my DD seems to want to throw amazing fits each time we see them. The 1st time we met my friend and "sweetie" at the park and my dd was slightly tired & hungry, but since it was a nice day I wanted her to get out. Then today after church we had an easter egg hunt, baby chicks, all that and my dd was again tired and hungry and wanted to run and bascially be a toddler! We went off and nursed and had some mommy/dd time since she had been in the nursery for a hour. Well it didn't help too much and so we left. Thing is, "sweetie" had been in the nursery for 3 hours and was probably tried and hungry too. She kinda of just stood there and stared off while my dd was all over the place. At teh time, I'm like how can I say anything about spanking when my dd is out of control and "sweetie" is so docile. I got really mad at myself (for being so prideful!) and a little a dd (for not being boosting my ego!). But how can I be credible when it looks like they are doing a better job at "teaching" their child to behave?

The way I deal with my friend is just...well...openly.
There's a thread I started a few days ago about how unsure I am about GD...the event that sparked these feelings was my observing this super-obedient kid at the park last week who was obviously being raised with a lot of spanking, while my ds was completely ignoring me and wandering off.
Anyway, yesterday I was watching my friend's ds for a few hours, and as they were leaving (they were outside and I was waving bye through the door) her ds takes off down the street, totally ignoring her!
(This is the friend who will "whoop" her baby 10 or 20 times a day).
Of course, my friend, upon seeing her son do this, ran over, yanked him up by the hand, and whacked him on the butt.
Now, the part that really surprised me was that it didn't even phase him anymore...he just looked at her.
He's officially desensitized to being hit and yelled at by his mommy.
So, when I was talking to her today, I was able to tell her about how I felt seeing my son ignore me at the park, and use the angle of "But if I ever do actually yell at him, or if it ever comes down to spanking, his threshold will be really low, so a lot less will do a lot more...I have a lot of room to work with, and that's important to me. I don't want to ever wonder 'what next?' when I'm already pushing the limits of dicipline that I'm comfortable with and nothing I do bothers him."
What I'm saying is, you have to be honest with your friend, and find ways of genuinely presenting your opinion in a non-threatening way.
I'm sure your friend's dd has "off" days, too...I don't think she made any definitive judgements on your parenting based off of a grumpy toddler day.
Toddlers are toddlers. She knows this.
As long as you don't throw stones when the subject is brought up, I doubt she'll do so either.
And if she does, then it's not destined to be a friendship that will last anyway, I bet.

[Amys1st]

How old is your son that is "wandering around at the park"? Isn't that what you are supposed to do at the park?

My daughter loves to wander and explore. Thats her job- she 2 1/2 close to 3! When we go to the park or anywhere that children love, either DH or I stay close by but far enough away to allow her to explore. On the swings, we are right there to push her, on the slide, either at the bottom or near the top if its a new place. But places like that are not a place to sit and relax.

I could not even fathom putting bodily harm to my child for doing what her brain and body need right now- exploration and exercise. Much less anything else for that matter.

You're right- that boy who obeys is also showing signs of knowing he has to act a certain way or he will get a spanking or whatever. He is never going to be able to have an original idea or exercise a creative aspect of himself since his parents have this relationship with him. Don't resort to doing that no matter what your friend does. Your boy is normal wanting to wander and see. Allow him that

[KellyB]

Originally Posted by Amys1st

How old is your son that is "wandering around at the park"? Isn't that what you are supposed to do at the park?

My daughter loves to wander and explore. Thats her job- she 2 1/2 close to 3! When we go to the park or anywhere that children love, either DH or I stay close by but far enough away to allow her to explore. On the swings, we are right there to push her, on the slide, either at the bottom or near the top if its a new place. But places like that are not a place to sit and relax.

I could not even fathom putting bodily harm to my child for doing what her brain and body need right now- exploration and exercise. Much less anything else for that matter.

You're right- that boy who obeys is also showing signs of knowing he has to act a certain way or he will get a spanking or whatever. He is never going to be able to have an original idea or exercise a creative aspect of himself since his parents have this relationship with him. Don't resort to doing that no matter what your friend does. Your boy is normal wanting to wander and see. Allow him that

I don't want to hijack this thread or anything, but i just wanted to respond to this quickly...
In my tiny little world, this whole GD thing is somewhat experimental...I have never known *anyone* who was not spanked growing up, and don't know *anyone* in my personal life who does not spank.
I live in the Bible belt, where people believe it's abusive to not spank... :
Logically, I know it's wrong, ineffective, and even counterproductive to hit kids, but I'm somewhat haunted by the views of the culture I was raised in; i.e. kids that are not spanked will grow up to be criminals.
But anyway, no...I'm not going to start hitting my toddler for being a toddler.

[Fuamami]

Don't call CPS

I just wanted to say that I think getting Social Services involved would be a bad, bad idea. They are overworked, and they are sometimes overzealous. It would probably be much more traumatic for "sweetie" to be removed from her home than to stay.

Also, you shouldn't feel "prideful" for knowing that what he is doing is mean. I've felt like that before, too. My sister-in-law and her husband have spanked their baby since he could crawl, and before that she would smack him when he bit her while he was nursing. This was before I had children, and didn't know too much about discipline. However, I did feel this yucky shock the first time I saw her do it. Now that I have a DD, his little cousin, it's even worse. I am not good at avoiding confrontation, and I've made us leave before to avoid making a big scene about her smacking him. I just think they're lazy and inconsistent, and it's their answer to everything. He won't go to sleep, they spank him, he won't potty train, they spank him. (He's 3 1/2) He hits my daughter, they hit him back. My husband has talked to her about it a few times, but she doesn't listen. So, we try to avoid them. He is desensitized, too. In fact, he had pretty much stopped responding at all to any sort of spanking or hitting or hair-pulling, so then they ratcheted up to the "bare-bottom spank". Yuck. Anyway, I'm a CASA, and I have seen lots lots worse, but it's hard to tell what emotional damage is being done.

I'm sorry, there was no advice there. I just wanted to share your pain. How would they react if you told them that you weren't going to let your dd play there anymore? Maybe it would embarrass him, and her, since she's enabling him too. You could say, "we don't let dd watch violent movies, and there's lots of violence going on in this house, so we're not coming over until it changes." Of course in a less preachy way, but that would be the upshot. Would they just get mad?

[Red]

So, natensarah, it would be better to let this continue than call for help? Pulling the kidds feet out form under her could cause permanent damage to her spine. If she's wheelchair bound, will it still be better?

A good scare would either wise the Dad up or make the Mother consider protecting her child!


And I have 5 unspanked young adults. They are responsible, law-abiding, pleasant members of society. Do not fear!

[KellyB]

I got curious and looked up child abuse.
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/chil...al_neglect.htm
There's a few hotlines at the bottom for people to call if they suspect abuse. (not CPS, but experts who can tell you if this qualifies as abuse in the eyes of the law, and will direct you to your local CPS # if it does.)

I don't really think any of this qualifies as abuse in the eyes of the law,(it looks like there needs to be an injury for it to be *real* abuse) but the thing about yanking her by her feet does sound dangerous, so....I don't know...maybe you could call that hotline and see what they think?

[Fuamami]

[QUOTE=Red]So, natensarah, it would be better to let this continue than call for help? Pulling the kidds feet out form under her could cause permanent damage to her spine. If she's wheelchair bound, will it still be better?

A good scare would either wise the Dad up or make the Mother consider protecting her child!

Well, it's probably pretty unlikely that social services would remove her, but stranger things have happened. Since it's pretty much the judgement call of the social worker, they might decided to remove her, which would be pretty traumatic. It sounds like she's very bonded with both her mother and her father, and being taken away to an emergency shelter or a foster home for at least 72 hours would be so scary to her, I don't think the scare to the father would be worth it. In fact, in my opinion, it's rarely advised to remove kids, even when much worse, real abuse is occurring. It's just so, so hard on kids to be in the foster system.

Anyway, just my opinion, and realistically, I would be very, veryy surprised if she ended up suffering permanent physical damage.

[mpeel]

I have made the decision to cut off contact with a family who spanks their child. It is no where near like you describe. I would call CPS on the family here in a minute but like someone else said, I am in the Bible Belt where not spanking is considered abuse. I will not and do not keep friends who spank, period. I will not have my children seeing it happen. I think it is abusive, any spanking. It is damaging psychologically. But what this father is doing to "sweetie" may be permanently damaging phyically as well.

I had to discipline the little girl of the family I am cutting ties with. This was before I realized they spanked her. I was on my knees in front of her and Samantha (they are a month apart in age), so I was at the same height as them, not hover over them. She was cowering away from me. She was clearly frightened of me. I was on my knees talking calmly about what the consequences could have been for their actions and that we were lucky this time but did they see why X thing was not safe to do. I was not yelling, lecturing, etc. Just raising my daughter. This little girl was scared to death. It is soooo sad. She is damaged and probably always will be.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by mpeel

I have made the decision to cut off contact with a family who spanks their child. It is no where near like you describe. I would call CPS on the family here in a minute but like someone else said, I am in the Bible Belt where not spanking is considered abuse. I will not and do not keep friends who spank, period. I will not have my children seeing it happen. I think it is abusive, any spanking. It is damaging psychologically. But what this father is doing to "sweetie" may be permanently damaging phyically as well.

I had to discipline the little girl of the family I am cutting ties with. This was before I realized they spanked her. I was on my knees in front of her and Samantha (they are a month apart in age), so I was at the same height as them, not hover over them. She was cowering away from me. She was clearly frightened of me. I was on my knees talking calmly about what the consequences could have been for their actions and that we were lucky this time but did they see why X thing was not safe to do. I was not yelling, lecturing, etc. Just raising my daughter. This little girl was scared to death. It is soooo sad. She is damaged and probably always will be.

[LunaMom]

This is a lousy situation. Unfortunately, there is no "good" solution to it.

I don't think it is likely that you can change the way these people - particularly Dad - parent their child. You have to separate this into two issues - the first being your concern over your own child witnessing this, and the second being your concern ofr this little girl.

I would not spend time with them if the dad is around, or if the mom is also using spanking or other "discipline" that you don't want your daughter to see. And I agree that you should make no assumptions about what goes on when you aren't around and very clearly state that you do not ever want your child disciplined in this way by her.

You can talk to this friend about your concerns. It is easy to see that her husband knows nothing about children and what they need. It may not help, but at least you can feel as though you tried, and then it is up to her. But I wouldn't expect much.

It's just sad. I feel so bad for that poor little girl. Aside from the physical pain she is having inflicted upon her, I cringe to think of how psychologically damaging this is. She is still a baby and she is not even allowed to play, for heaven's sake, and it sounds like she gets nothing but disapproval from her father.

It is nearly impossible, at least in my experience, to have a friendship with people who treat their children with little respect.

[sadie_sabot]

Please talk to your friend about your concerns. If nothing changes, then call CPS.

Seriously.

My dd is 2 and three months, and I used to be Miss patience and never frustrated, etc. Now with a verbal, willful, smart and strong toddler I get pretty frustrated sometimes. If he is already being so violent with his kid and she's only 20 months, IT WILL ESCALATE unless there's some sort of intervention. Basically, his kid will just get harder and harder to control, and he will get more and more violent in trying to control her.



My other concern is that I wonder, if your friend defied him, would he get violent with her? Could she be afraid of interveneing on her child's behalf? This is why I suggest you talk to her, so if she does actually want to be an advocate for her kid, you can offer support.

I feel really sad for that kid.