I can't do this

[melixxa]

I am firmly committed to gentle discipline. I was spanked and swatted as a child and I know it just made me angrier and more contrary. It made me act out more. I think physical punishment is wrong, plain and simple. My partner feels different about it, so that's an ongoing topic for negotiation.

The problem is, I am having a hard time with my toddler. When things boil over (his is practically strangling the cat, pouring his milk on the floor as fast as he can BECAUSE he knows I am coming to stop it, i.e. new willful behaviors as well as things we've objected to from the beginning (such as with the cat), etc.) I too start to boil over. My urge, which I am always fighting, is to grab his arm to stop him, jerk him away, yell, even swat him. I am so frustrated and scared and disappointed in myself. How can I advocate GD when I can barely practice it myself? When in my mind (at least so far) I am practicing exactly the opposite?

I'm 7 mos. pregnant and very uncomfortable and so tired and I just get so mad. I'm terrible with toddlers and wish I could skip this whole phase completely. I feel like I am being tested to the utmost of my strength and abilities here. I just want to sit on the couch crying.

My boy does not seem to understand disapproval of his actions, or anger, or sad feelings at all. He doesn't understand that there are certain things he does that he MUST not do (repetition and repetition do not get through to him - he thinks it's all just a game we're playing and gets even more excited, doing the "bad thing" more and more). I naively thought it was all about getting him to understand that certain things aren't acceptable (hurting the cat, clinbing up on the table he might fall off of and hurt himself, trying to touch the hot teacup). My partner gets angry now and talks about "disciplining" (I think he means spanking and timeouts) and I always object. But when I get so angry and burned out myself, I feel like I don't have a leg to stand on. I feel like a phony when I'm boiling over inside and all I can think is WHY WON'T HE DO WHAT I WANT?

I feel at the end of my rope with this sometimes. Especially since I am not a natural kid person and would have no idea what to do in the best of circumstances.

Sorry if this is rambly - I am having a bad morning and it is all just ready to pour out.

[mamaduck]

Do you have anyone IRL with children -- who's discipline style you respect and would like to emulate? If so, can you arrange to spend regular time with this person? For me -- such a friend was a necessary part of my journey to GD. Someone to learn from, hands-on.

Rest assured that being 7 months pg. is a big part of the stress -- and your "condition" will not last forever. The first few months with the new baby will also be hard.... but this is not forever either.

In the meantime -- perhaps it would be helpful to remind yourself that the things he is doing are not the end of the world. Its okay if things get messy and spilled and crazy. It really is okay to experience a little mayhem. Better at least, than hitting.

I wish I could be more help. You are in a tough spot, mama. Nobody here would claim its easy!

[jentilla]

I totally know! I hope the morning gets better. What is wrong with time outs? I have DD sit in a chair for about 1 minute when we've tried everything else. It's just about enough time for her to forget what she "kept doing over and over and ..." lol What helps me is stuff like snack, stories, nursing, and just some rough housing: jumping, silly screaming and tickling to get us both over the anger. She cracks up when I give a good hoot of frustration! Anyway, I understand my dad was a bug spanker and VERY angry when I was growing up, so I struggle with that kind of behavior too. DH is very laid back and I've been working on my anger for years and thought I was doing well til DD became a toddler! It's one day at a time and remember even though you feel like you know this baby inside out it's just like any other relationship that you have to learn how to get along in. And as parent you have to do most of teh work for awhile!
HUGS!

Jen married to BF john and mom to O

[MomInFlux]

Wow, mama - a 20 month old and 7 months pregnant? Sounds hard.

I'm not so good about giving advice, but a couple of things came to mind. Mostly, can you take a look at what situations you can change so that conflict is removed? For example, give DS his milk in a sippy cup with a valve and a sealed lid. Heck, my DS is 4 and he still gets his milk in a sippy cup. Why fight that fight? Can you remove the cat from the room when DS is looking like he wants to strangle it? Can you move the teacup out of reach? Can you move the chairs away from the table so that DS can't climb up? For a time there when my DS was about that age, I had a long sling strap that I wrapped around the legs of the dining room chairs and table so that they couldn't be pulled out. At 20 months, you're still baby/child proofing. And 20 months is really young to understand the impacts of his actions - everything IS a game to him. Maybe you can also get a book that discusses age appropriate activity so that you understand that what DS is doing is to be expected. I think part of child-raising frustration tends to stem from unreasonable expectations of our children's behavior. HTH!

[mom2alicia]

i'm reading a book right now that i think you will find particularly helpful. it is called "parenting from the inside out". from the back cover:

"How many parents have found themselves thinking: I can't believe I just said to my child the very thing my parents used to say to me! Am I just destined to repeat the mistakes of my parents? In Parenting from the Inside Out, child psychiatrist, Daniel J. Siegel and early childhood expert Mary Hartzell explore the extent to which our childhood experiences shape the way that we parent. Drawing on stunny new findings in neurobiology and attachment research, they explain how interpersonal relationships directly affect the development of the brain, and offer parents a step-by-step approach to forming a deeper understanding of their own life stories that will help them raise compassionate and resilient children."

[captain optimism]

Wow, it's a lot to deal with toddler behavior when you are in late pregnancy like that. Routines can help you. Is there a local playgroup? Story hour at the library? Are you too uncomfortable to take him out for a walk every morning? It sounds like he's testing your limits and trying to get your attention, and he doesn't really care that it's negative attention. Anything you can do to get his attention on something else, get him up and away from the cat, will help you.

My son, who is about 6 months older, still really enjoys walking around the block, stopping to comment on the cars, trees, etc. If he doesn't have the energy to do a whole walk, he can walk partway holding your hand, or with you between him and the street, anyway, and then you can plop him in the stroller when he gets tired. Since he can't go that far, you won't have to walk that far either!

If he keeps spilling the milk, put it in one of those spill-proof sippy cups. I know he is probably capable of drinking from a regular cup without spilling, but he probably also likes to see what happens when the milk pours out. (Both what happens to the milk and what happens to Mommy!) We had my ds using a spill proof cup for much longer than he "needed" to use one for the same reason.

Does he nap enough? do you get time with him, reading books or playing with toys? Both of those things can help.

There are some behaviors you won't be able to get him to stop, and if you feel very angry, leave him safe in his room and take a short breather. I'm sorry you have to cope with this now, but on the other hand how wonderful, what a blessing it will be later to have these two beautiful children.

[melixxa]

Thank you sooo much for your replies. It is the afternoon now, and though I'm exhausted from the upset this morning, I feel much better.

Of course, part of the problem is temporary - I am much less mobile and have such a hard time getting onto and up from the floor (size as well as hip/back pain) that it has really curtailed our morning activities, playing, etc. I'm also sleeping badly, so I'm pretty much a zombie during these hours. It's the best I can do to get both of us dressed, washed up, teeth brushed, diapers changed, food made, etc. After that, I could read some books on the couch but ... that's it for a few hours. Of course, by this point my boy is just waking up and raring to go. I have never been much of a morning person, but these days it's much worse.

Right now we are snowed in, with about 1 1/2 feet of snow. I have been walking up and down the road with him most days, but I'm a little too unsteady on my feet for that much ice/packed snow. Luckily, my niece (who is living with us and helping babysit when I have to work, etc.) took him right after I had my crying meltdown - they got all bundled up and went outside, which was just perfect. She has only been here two months but is a huge godsend. I don't know what I'd do without her.

I'm still disappointed in myself, however, and how hard it is to maintain my cool and hold onto my principles in the heat of the moment. I actually yanked something away from my boy today and he lost his balance, fell down and cried. He wasn't hurt at all and only cried for about ten seconds before something else distracted him, but I felt TERRIBLE. I feel like this is a slippery slope, too. As in: I could get used to this very small level of physical violence and it could grow. Until, suddenly, I find myself spanking him and yelling at him. This is NOT how I want to live, to be, to raise my children. It's why I got so freaked out this morning. I felt such anger at him. Meanwhile, he is still getting some incisors in, he didn't sleep long enough last night, he's a little stir crazy right now, he's itchy from the dry weather, he's frustrated because his language skills lag far behind his physical skills ... there are many reasons why he's a bit of a handful and wanting my attention more and needing to run off excess energy. Plus, *I* am the adult! He is barely a toddler! It's not like he even needs an excuse for 'handful' behavior! It's to be expected.

I try to plan stuff. We were supposed to go to both Gymboree yesterday and to his cousins' house (same age + 4-year-old) to play, but I had to cancel because I thought I had to take his dad to the airport. So in the end, we were pretty much just stuck in the house all day with just the same toys and the Wiggles (we he LOVES) to keep us occupied. I am looking for a playgroup now.

I only give him spill-proof sippies but he has figured out that if he bangs the spout on the floor hard enough, a goodly amount of milk will come out!

Yes, we are still childproofing. I figured out a way to keep the cat out of the room. We are getting rid of our tables (except the little one he eats at). Everything else has been removed from the room, essentially. Two weeks ago he ripped all the keys off of my laptop (it was so awful, it was funny. I got it fixed for only $5, luckily) because I left it in the room with him alone for 1 minute while I did something in the kitchen. Anyway, we're learning. I guess it's just, we've done so much in that area already. Then sometimes I'll forget I left my book under a couch cushion, only to find it destroyed later on. And so I get frustrated. That I do the best I can and yet still somehow he got a hold of a black ink pen and wrote all over the top of the ottoman while I was getting his breakfast.

MomInFlux - You make a good point that I need a book detailing developmental levels. I agree that not knowing for sure what our boy is capable of, etc. leads to disappointment and frustration. It will be good for me to know, especially so I can talk to my partner more about why his discipline tactics would be so wrong, even harmful. I've heard conflicting info about my baby's stage: Some have said he's old enough to 'get' when he's doing something wrong; others say he's not there yet. I tend to think the latter, but have lately been concerned that he is lagging behind for some reason ....

I only think that timeouts are too advanced for my boy. He would not understand at all why we'd be doing that, would not connect them with his actions. And there's no way we could ever get him to sit still in one.

Can anyone suggest a good book about the stages of toddler development? My library sort of stalled after all the gentle birthing books, then the breastfeeding books and 'The Baby Book.'

jentilla - I am working on anger issues, too. I'm pretty sure a lot of them stem from childhood and how helpless I felt most of the time against my control freak mom (whom I dearly love). Now I'm sort of a control freak, too. Also, mine are sort of tied up with depression and a trapped feeling I tend to get when I feel I'm not doing this mother/partner/primary caregiver thing very well.

But compared with my partner, I am the mellow one. He is a hothead. And he is certain that the physical discipline he got as a kid and adolescent from his father (who is dead now and whom he reveres) actually saved his life, i.e. were the only thing holding him back from extremely destructive, even deadly behaviors. This is why he is so convinced about the necessity of physical punishment. He believes that it is the only way to impart to certain children (and he's sure his son(s) will be just like he was as a kid: a terror) that some things are NOT ALLOWED.

I wonder if anyone else is dealing with a partner whose views are so diametrically opposed?

Anyway, sorry for the increedibly long ramble. It wouldn't be necessary except that I don't have anyone to talk to about these issues in real life. Though, now that I think about it, my SIL would be good - though she's very different from me - as I *do* emulate and admire her gentle parenting. She is the one who turned me on to Dr. Sears in the first place.

[bamamom]

I hear ya mama! These ages are so difficult!

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by melixxa

But compared with my partner, I am the mellow one. He is a hothead. And he is certain that the physical discipline he got as a kid and adolescent from his father (who is dead now and whom he reveres) actually saved his life, i.e. were the only thing holding him back from extremely destructive, even deadly behaviors. This is why he is so convinced about the necessity of physical punishment. He believes that it is the only way to impart to certain children (and he's sure his son(s) will be just like he was as a kid: a terror) that some things are NOT ALLOWED.

I wonder if your partner has considered that the physical punishment he experienced actually made him more likely to be a destructive "terror?"

You're in a tough place - pregnant, snowed in... yikes. I think you should be patting yourself on the back that you haven't completely lost it.

Do you suppose your child is reacting to the changes he senses? Not that that helps solve anything, but it might help you to consider that perspective - to know that there might be a "reason" behind the mayhem (besides just him being a toddler).

A lot of this is just stuff to be weathered; there's no real fix except growth. CO brought up a very good point, though - that he's looking for your reaction. When my son tests my limits, if I lose it and lash out, he's more likely to continue than if I respond very matter-of-factly (or not at all, if the situation allows for it). With the spilling milk on the floor, maybe just handing him a rag and saying, "Time to clean up!" would work. He might like cleaning up so much that he keeps spilling, but then you have him occupied for a few minutes, anyway. And he will eventually learn that spilling milk on the floor is not okay (and have the impulse control to help him use that information).

Also, are you getting any time to yourself to just breathe?

Re: Books - I've heard that Terry Brazleton's "Touchpoints" series is very good for learning about age-appropriate behavior. My favorite book is "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be." I also have very angry impulses/reactions and this book really helps me to re-center in a very short amount of time.

[monkeymommy3]

I have a 20 mo. old boy too...so I feel your pain. What I did when we were stuck in the house because of the weather was when I started to get frustrated with him, I would give him a bath, he loves his bath and it keeps him contained for a bit. If he continually dumps out his milk, I would try just allowing him milk or juice in his high chair, and when he is around the house just give him water, that way, it's not a big deal if he dumps it. As for the rest of the destructive behaviors, I just removed the problem if he was obsessing over it and what I couldn't remove, like the T.V. and stuff, I just cvered with a tablecloth, out of sight out of mind works with most tods

I am a crunchy girl from California and I married the love of my life, a farm boy from Ohio, so needless to say, we saw the world in much different ways, as far as the parenting goes, he was brought upwith violence and humiliation, we resolved it by taking a parenting class together, it was about positive discipline, he really saw the worth in those principles. Parenting was a constant source of arguments with us before, and that really helped, and as their mother I told him that my children would not be beaten so we had to find a common ground, and we did.

[lupineperriwinkle]

I haven't got any real advice for you but I know just what you are saying. Maya is 21 months and I am due in 4 short weeks. While she is great a majority of the time she is very clingy and is sometimes so repeatedly naughty that I just want to scream. I admit that most of it is pregnancy related though as I have been on bedrest on and off this entire pregnancy.
I was very physically abused as a child and ito highschool. I will not spank/swat Maya at all but sometimes catch myself thinking I wish I were a spanking parent and that isn't the answer. Last week I actually broke down into tears for the first time with her and felt so horrid afterward. I just want you to know you aren't alone with this! In fact, you are a wonderful parent for even seeking advice to begin with.

[bamamom]

Regarding the pp, i don't think it's always so terribly wrong to cry in front of them if you've just absolutely had it. I have broken down in front of dd on at least a couple of occasions, when I was just done for. I think when it's sincere and completely unplanned it sends a powerful message that even toddlers can understand..after all, crying is still a huge part of their language skills.

[Deja]

Melixxa;
Even when a toddler begins to grasp that a behavior or activity is forbidden, it still takes them quite some time to develop the impulse control needed to refrain from acting on their desires.

I don't know how others will perceive this, but I think that to express that you are angry and frustrated and very upset is healthy and gives the child a model for verbalizing their frustration. I think doing so allows you to vent your frustration in " I " terms rather than in an attacking or blaming manner, which is again a great model for children in verbalizing their frustration and anger later.

[Danielsmom]

Hi to mama to burrito boy,
Your post could have been my post today (except that I'm not pregnant). I have had feelings similar to you (setting standards for parenting, having been hit, slapped or spanked as a child, and then being upset at myself for feeling very angry at my son).

I think 1. it's understandable that you have those feelings of anger. 2. you should give yourself credit for being concerned, and 3. there are ways you can deal with your anger without acting negatively on it.

And yes, these feelings of anger you have toward your little one do seem shocking. I feel the same way when I get angry at my son. Toddlers are so cute and funny, we should want to be kind and gentle to them all the time, right?

After I read your post I did a search on mothering.com on anger management/parental anger. I found some very helpful articles. http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...anagement.html
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...ment_side.html
and here's a link to several articles:
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...iscipline.html
The most helpful bit of advice I found was to learn to express your own anger when you feel it, but in appropriate ways. In other words, don't let your anger bottle up inside of you.
I think sometimes for me, I try to be "nice" all the time with my son that when I do get angry I feel like I am going to lose it. My goal from now on is to learn to state when I am angry, or step out of the room and just say it to empty air LOL. I do give myself time outs when I feel myself getting angry.

Healthy venting of anger is the key. For many of us, it's hard to figure out what healthy venting means.
I have also found it helpful to write down/journal my thoughts several nights a week and to meditate, even if it's only 5 minutes a day.
I just wanted to add that my journal entry for tonight was "who am I really angry at and why?" Holy cow, I came up with quite a list. and it made me realize that the anger I feel when my son misbehaves probably has very little to do with him. It's a helpful journaling exercise and you may want to try it.

[melixxa]

Again, I have to say that I love this place. I have learned so much (and felt so supported) just from reading this thread.

Originally Posted by bamamom

I hear ya mama! Our kids are exactly the same age. My due date is 6/10/05 and my dd was born in 8/03. Part of it is the pregnancy, i can assure you. and we have had issues with boredom with the same toys over and over...

My due date is also 6/10/05!

Toy boredom may be one of our problems. He has so many toys (nearly all of them gifts from my MIL) but I have not expended the energy to divide them up for rotation, which I have been wanting to do for a long, long time. If he didn't see them every day, I know he would find a lot of them more intriguing.

Some of these suggestions seem very smart to me: not reacting as if a spill (or whatever) is the end of the world. I am sure my boy would love to help clean up (he wants to be mopping, sweeping, etc. all the time as it is). Possibly a parenting class for my partner and me to focus on what we want to do here. I try to tell him gently when I really disagree with what he seems to be doing - without sounding too confrontational or "giving an order" - and though he may disagree or at least think I'm making too much of something, he tries to understand and compromise and accommodate me. One example is that I noticed he was snapping his fingers while ordering our son off the table (he LOVES to climb on the tables and stand up, grinning and waiting for our reaction). It's the exact same way he gives commands to his dog - which is what his experience of "discipline" has been to date, naturally. I told him I wasn't so down with the snapping of the fingers .... And so he has tried very hard to stop.

An impromptu bath is a great idea. We both love baths. It's one of the few physical things that actually feels good to me. It takes up time. And at night, our usual bath time, I'm often too tired to enjoy the fun and respite.

Originally Posted by Deja

Even when a toddler begins to grasp that a behavior or activity is forbidden, it still takes them quite some time to develop the impulse control needed to refrain from acting on their desires.

I don't know how others will perceive this, but I think that to express that you are angry and frustrated and very upset is healthy and gives the child a model for verbalizing their frustration. I think doing so allows you to vent your frustration in " I " terms rather than in an attacking or blaming manner, which is again a great model for children in verbalizing their frustration and anger later.

Deja and Danielsmom,
Yours points are real eye-openers for me. I was re-reading what I wrote yesterday and thinking that it might not have been fair to call my partner a "hothead" and term myself the "mellow" one. I would be putting a completely different spin on it were I to say that he expresses his anger/feelings in an immediate, direct, honest, healthy manner, whereas I tend to bottle the anger up, feeling too guilty about it to express it honestly. In fact, I tend to be passive-aggressive (it's a family sickness), denying my anger and letting it fester.

This partly explains why I feel so very guilty and so very angry at turns with my toddler. I feel guilty for having felt anger toward him (a child! whom I love!) and want to pretend I didn't feel such a thing at all.

I don't want my children to learn these behaviors from me the way I learned them growing up.

Journaling about issues like anger is something I am doing already. I have a problem with anger (often manifested as depression as anger is not a "ladylike" enough emotion), specifically relating to motherhood, which has not come easy to me. I often feel like I'm not up to the challenge, like it is too hard. I set impossible standards for myself (I will do it all perfectly AND I will enjoy it!) and then feel angry with the world when I fail to meet them. (An example: I am already beating myself up years in advance because I know I won't end up homeschooling even though I think it is the very best educational option.)

The anger is also directed at my partner, who finds it all so easy and natural (though, I tell myself, he's not the one worried to distraction every day over whether our boy is eating enough vegetables, getting outside enough, having frequent enough baths, sitting too long in a wet diaper, meeting his "milestones," etc. Those are all my job, on top of taking care of all his other physical needs. And so I feel ... angry that this is so, that I'm the one carrying this huge burden, wishing it were lighter and I were stronger).

I am thinking, after reading some of these comments, that the first step in expressing (and doing away with) anger is accepting that it's not something SHAMEFUL. I have a problem with that - I feel as if I should be a lot more patient and understanding than I am. I feel like my anger is a failure of nerve and a failure of character. That is a lot to deal with in the heat of the moment, and afterwards too.

Anyway, I want to check out those anger management threads. Thank you again.

[taralv]

I read so many threads and rarely have time or energy to respond, but I have to thank everyone who responded and especially Melixxa for posting because I really needed to read this. I have a 3 year old (who will be 4 on April 6) and a four month old baby as well. Since pregnancy, my anger and inability to deal with my daughter has been building and building. I also kept trying to push it down and make it go away because I feel horrible admitting that I am so angry with a child that I love so much. But after my son's birth, things have gotten so much worse. We have moved and my husband travels weeks at a time with work, and I have been screaming at my daughter and many times on the verge of hitting her. Last night was the worst, and I really doubted myself, my belief in attachment parenting, etc... I nursed my dd until she was 3, two months into my pregnancy. She has always slept with us in our bed. Then all at once I weaned her, we moved, I was very sick with morning sickness, etc... Lots of changes in her little world. And mine too. Anyway, my husband and I have decided to some family counseling, and I hope to make some other changes to get some more support, but it really helped to read this thread today. Hang in there!

Tara

[Danielsmom]

I have to say thanks to the Melixxa for the original post too.
Your post helped me to help myself. Reading that it is healthy to express anger in appropriate ways was a real awakening for me.

As I mentioned before, I tend to let things build. My husband has no problem showing impatience in his voice with ds(he's also very loving). He's not at all abusive but he does show when he is exasperated. Until recently I have thought that was wrong. But I'm changin my ways!

Today ds and I went to the library. He started to have a tantrum over something and I said that while it was okay to be mad, I was tired and frustrated and we were going home. It may not have been the most ap thing to do but it was better than steaming and stewing.
To the mom whose husband travels and has two little ones, honey, I would probably be driven to distraction too. Sometimes you just need time for yourself or space for yourself. Is there any way you can get that?

To Melixxa, of course your partner is more a natural at this since he is not with your son 24/7. For him, parenting is probaly a break from work. For us it's the toughest job we'll ever love LOL.

I find that when my anger or irritation reaches a certain level, it's a sign that I need to take some time for myself or get out and do something fun.

And I do sympathize with the guilt and frustration at being angry and frustrated. I have wanted to have a child for a long time, I'm an older mom, and I feel that being a mom should be sweetness and light all the time. So why don't I love it all the time? I do love it most of the time, but not all the time.

But I think that cosleeping, extended breastfeeding, and other ap practices can periodically have a drain on some of us. And I guess I am one of those moms.

Thanks again for such a timely thread.

Melixxa just reading your latest thread again--you say you are not up for the challenge...I have to disagree. Anyone who is as conscientious as you must be a devoted, loving mother. And I think your point about depression being anger withheld is right on.

One of the reasons I try to be so nice with ds is my own parents were screamers, yellers, and just plain verbally abusive, sarcastic and mean. So I go to the opposite extreme, which is probably not healthy either.

[mommyofshmoo]

Hiya-
Haven't read all the responses, but just wanted to throw in that 20 months is an age where you really can't expect kids to do what you say. I seem to recall after 2.5 years the beginning of hearing "yes mom."

From 20-26 months my dd just did the opposite of whatever I said. She'd look me straight in the eye and walk into the street. It think that's what kids this age do.

I know you're in a tough spot, but I'm sure previous posts have mentioned that your kid is not the problem, but your situation is.

anyway, gotta jet.