My dd is almost 13 What now?

[johub]

Ok, does there come a time when we can stop handling our kids egos with kid gloves and should just be straight with them as to the way their behaviors and attitudes make us feel?
My dd is constantly challenging me with a bad attitude, backtalk, selfishness, refusal to be helpful or do chores.
She gets away with it sometimes but overall I am left dealing with these issues peacemeal as the case arises but the overall opressive atmosphere caused by her attitudes continues to grow.
She is currently grounded due to refusing to come home from school and going to a friends house without permission ( I explicitly said "No") but the truth is that her grounding is more a punishment for me because she is always around and her energy is always negative.
The very sad fact right now is that I dont like her. If I met her as an acquaintence I would not be her friend. If she called me I wouldnt return her calls. If she was interviewing for a job I wouldnt' hire her and if she worked for me I woudl fire her.
This is an awful feelign for a mother. I have always been very open with her. I feel I have been pretty consistent with my expectations.
For a couple of years she has been a little "spirited" mouthy once in a while, a little bit of a smart aleck but instead of punishing her I would usually go around it and look to the deeper issues. Once in a while I considered it to be a "smallie". But now this is her attitude all the time and my kindly explaining to her why this is unkind and unacceptable is having no effect.
I am a no-spanking, positive reinforcement type mom. I use punishments very sparingly only when every other method of encouraging desired behavior has failed. But now I almost long for the days where kids got a good thrashing! I know it sounds gruesome and of course I don't really want to beat my daughter. But my frustration grows and I feel that I am not serving her well as well.
What do I do? Is it time to become the "authoritarian" type of parent because more positive models have not worked?
Anybody know of a cheap boarding school? LOL
If I had known I would stop liking my child before she hit 13 I would not have had 3 more!
Part of me is so frustrated and disappointed I wish I could send her to a boarding school or at the very least to her bio-father's to live. But of course that is giving up and quitting out on my responsibility and I am not really considering these things as options, just as fantasies.
I know that sitting her down and telling her that her behavior makes her unlikeable is not going to be helpful. But how can I help her understand that how she is perceived by others is important? I feel like I have to start over with parenting her becasue everythign I have done up to now has failed.
HELP!

[Thursday Girl]

Ok, I can't really help, but hugs to you amam. My DD is only two, but I will tell you that I was an extremeley difficult girl at that age.. I know you aren't actually considering that, but I just wanted to put my two cents in.
My step-mother ended up kicking me out of the house, and my fatehr just went along with it. I had a lot of (more) resentment to work through after that. PLus I got into some pretty bad things. My mom worked constantly so she had no control over us kids and I was super angry at the world, I ended up getting involved in drugs and what not. Even though it's otugh she really needs your support and love. One thing I always wanted form my dad (which itseems like you are giving) was for him to say he was proud of me. i craved it. But when I had a report card that was all A's sans 1 D in Algebra the only thing he said anything about was the D.

IN the end this is jsut a toguh tough age, and I am in no way shape of form looking forward to it. A book I read a lot when I got to be 15, and one I recommend to you is

Reviving Ophelia

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

below it is a book called "ophelia speaks" I have not read that.

Good Luck Mama sorry I can't help to much.

Courtney

[sunnysideup]

I can understand your frustration. My daughter is about the same age. There have been times I have thought about secretly taping her when she's being snotty-- maybe if she heard what she sounds like it would have an impact! :LOL I do try to remind myself how much I hated being that age. It was no fun imo.

does there come a time when we can stop handling our kids egos with kid gloves and should just be straight with them as to the way their behaviors and attitudes make us feel?

Sure. I am open about how my kids' behaviors make me feel. If someone (anyone) hurts your feelings or makes you angry you should tell them.

Hopfully a mom that has seen this through to the other side will have more advice for you. Hang in there!

[latinmom]

Is my daughter living with you???? Seriously, I said exactly the same things as you when DD was 11-15. Now that she's 17, life has become much calmer. They do grow up, its just really hard for everyone. This age is just the cocoon-soon the butterfly will come out!

[3girls1boy]

My oldest DD will be 13 this summer.

I have been told by moms with older daughters that they do get better around 16 or so.

One of my friends whose kids are all grown told me, "Don't take it personally." and I try to use that as my mantra.

[johub]

My dh is seriously afraid that her "lack of respect" and "bad attitude" will last forever and keep her from being able to hold down a job in the future or might get her in trouble at school.
She tells me that she is usually very respectful to her teachers, however there has been the "occasional" instance.
SOmetimes things seem so hopeless. But at other times I see that she has absorbed a lot of what she has been taught.
Of couse I only get calls from teachers if somethign goes wrong, nobody calls to say 'Meghann has been delightful all week'.
I have also heard that the hardest time is from 13-15 and that they reach a certain maturity by 16. I am looking forward to it.
Joline

[Red]

Well, I had an impossible nasty one and DID send her to live with her bio dad.

Not a great choice, but OH, was my life peaceful. I feel bad saying that even now, but I did enjoy the peace.

Now, at 25, she's a delight. We truly enjoy each other.

I know, you want to hear it will all be ok soon. But my point is, even if it's really awful, for a long time, remeber, she is YOUR child, your love, your life. She needs to break free, to show you she doesn't need you anymore. Once she's grown, she'll realize how much you love her and it WILL ease over.

I hope THIS WEEK is better for you!

[Ruthla]

It sounds to me like she's comfortable enough with you to not hold anything back. Chances are she's holding herself together better at school (or you'd be getting a LOT more phone calls from teachers and the principal!) If she was your employee, she'd probably behave a lot better in your presence!!!

Just because she's acting like a mouthy brat most of the time doesn't mean that she didn't absorb anything from her childhood- its all still there but now there's a layer of "teenage" on top of it. I'd suggest dealing with a lot of it the same way you would have when she was younger- being firm about the rules and the consequences for not following them. When you're inconsitant, kids test the limits even more. Maybe you can't always stop the attitude or her tone of voice, but you CAN insist on her doing chores. Maybe sit down with her and work out a chore schedual, so she can budget her own time rather than emptying the dishwasher the minute you ask her to. I think 13 is old enough to say "It hurts my feelings when you talk to me like that, and this behavior is NOT acceptable."

Try not to take it personally, 13 is a very hard age to be.

[skj474]

Exactly!! I have been told the same thing, that they get better around 16 or so.

Originally Posted by 3girls1boy

My oldest DD will be 13 this summer.

I have been told by moms with older daughters that they do get better around 16 or so.

One of my friends whose kids are all grown told me, "Don't take it personally." and I try to use that as my mantra.

[Deja]

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...5+10%3A37%3A38


1. Backtalk: Four Steps to Ending Rude Behavior in Your Kids
Audrey Ricker, Carolyn Crowder

REVIEW EXCERPT:
Ricker, a teacher, and Crowder, a psychologist, present a compact plan for dealing with backtalking kids. The authors define their topic as including such phenomena (common among teenagers, but quite likely to strike much earlier) as sudden rudeness, nasty tone, inflected syllables, hostility and bullying control of the conversation. They make clear that their advice pertains only to mentally healthy children and not to those with serious neurological or psychiatric disabilities. While allowing that respectful disagreement or assertive communication in kids is appropriate, the authors suggest that parents nip backtalk in the bud. Their four deceptively simple steps include recognizing backtalk when it occurs; choosing a logical consequence; enacting the consequence; and disengaging from the struggle.
This book is great. It might help.

[johub]

YOu know, I actually have that book. I'll have to dust it off again.
Thanks.

Oh and things are getting worse. Now she doesnt even want to talk to me and yesterday she was asking to get her nose pierced.
They ought to have special places to send them for the next 3 years! LOL

Joline

[Deja]

Is she in public school? A lot of that comes from the school environment, IMO.

That book has been very helpful for me and others in my family, but you have to adjust the consequences to suit your philosophy of course.

I have one grown daughter who was homeschooled 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th grades, and I didn't have this stage with her, which is why I think it may be the environment in public school that contributes to this kind of behavior.

I do think though, that you are demonstrating to her how a woman should allow herself to be treated, if you know what I mean. Maybe a good model for your interactions for her would be to consider what kinds of behaviors you want her to learn are tolerable in terms of how she allows people to treat HER. I found this perspective to be very helpful and empowering, in that I began to feel that by drawing these very firm boundaries for her in regards to how I would be treated, I was giving her a model for how a woman should take care of herself in life.

Personally, I do not believe in ego coddling at this age. In five short years she'll begin to deal with the world outside of the home on a whole different level. Five years is a relatively short period of time. I think it does a child this age good to begin to realize to a certain extent that the world will not revolve around her feelings to the exclusion of the needs of everyone else around her.

This has been my approach, and I have had several difficult children (family) come to live with me in their teenage years for one reason or another. Of course in some respects it was easier for me because I am not the mother, but these firm boundaries have helped me enormously, not just in helping these children transition to adulthood, but to identify for MYSELF how I deserve to be treated.

Of course, I didn't use 'you' statements and I didn't attack the individual in any way when having conflict. I stuck to focus on the intolerable behaviors, and with this very careful distinction, I got good results.

[Deja]

Originally Posted by johub

Now she doesnt even want to talk to me and yesterday she was asking to get her nose pierced.Joline

Did she ask YOU to get her nose pierced? If so, she was talking to you. I'd tell her that I don't feel like considering whether or not she can get her nose pierced because I don't go out of my way for people who don't talk to me or interact with me positively. Sorry. And that would be the END of the discussion.

I think that's the critical element that that book helped me with...not allowing myself to get sucked into long, drawn out debates or discussions. Say what you have to say and remove yourself from the conversation.

That's a little counterintuitive for me, because I am a talker and love to talk things through. But with certain ages, that's a HUGE mistake, even though handling it with brevity didn't come naturally to me!

[johub]

Well she is in a charter school which is smaller than the neighborhood Jr High but it is of course full of other kids her age.
I have often said recently that I wish I could just keep her away from other adolescents until she is 16!
Her problem really started getting worse when she was promoted to 8th grade in February and is now with a group of friends who are a year older and she is really trying to "fit in"
It is harder because I am her mother too. It is more personal.
THat is one reason I fantasize about boarding school. Not so much as to get rid of her. But to put someone not emotionally invested in the discipline position!
I tell my dh that this is why I need to homeschool the younger kids. He isn't biting so far.
Joline

[johub]

Me too!!
I like to talk things out until we all reach a happy little consensus.
I have always encouraged her to speak her mind and treated her that her thoughts and feeligns are important. so I have too many times overlooked her smaller forms of being disrespectful.
But I have been learning to just stop things in their tracks when she gets out of line. WIth the nose piercing conversation. She started arguing with me that I told her that she could get her lip pierced when she turns 16. I told her that that is not true I had never agreed to it. (that is an over my dead body or you turn 18, whichever comes first) and she started arguing with me and I ended it by telling her. "Do NOT tell me what I said." and it was over. The old me would have been, "well, when did you think I said that? I dont' recall ever saying such a thing. Let's discuss why". . .etc. . . and the argument would have lasted into perpetuity!
I wish I could just pull her out of school and end the contact she has with these other kids that I do not approve of.
Thanks for all the input!!
Joline

[Victorian]

you know, I think that emotionally smacking her "into place" is about the worse thing that you can do. Do you remember being 13? I do. I was a NIGHTMARE. I was mean, whiney, controling, angry and downright not much fun. I sulked, I pouted, I yelled.

This is a normal developmental stage. She is becoming a woman. She is separating herself from you. She is developing so fast right now and you are not. She is changing, you are steady. BE HER ROCK. Put yourself aside. Put the books away and look at your daughter. LOOK at her, not her actions, at her heart. She is still that lovely little girl stuck inside that body that is going wacky. Eventually she will find a way to come back to you. Take her shopping. Get her nosed pierce. Get her a massage and a hotdog. Ask her how things are. You might be surprised.

I was shipped off to live with my Aunt. It made me feel terrible, like no one loved me (especially my mom). No one could stand me and I couldn't stand myself. You are her mother, her rock. Just try loving her as gently as you want her to love you. Children do not learn by punishment, they learn by example. If you want to be treated with respect, do not force her to respect you in a non-respectful manner, show her the respect that you want.

Victoria

p.s. make sure that you are offering lots of organic and non-processed foods for her to eat. Diet can make a huge difference.

[Ruby]

Do you remember being 13? I do. I was a NIGHTMARE. I was mean, whiney, controling, angry and downright not much fun. I sulked, I pouted, I yelled.

This is a normal developmental stage

I too was a 13 year old and have a 13 year old dd and this isn't a normal developmental stage. There are probably two things that are contributing to that and I think one poster pointed out the aspect of negative socialization with peers as one and the other is if a child hasn't been taught to respect her parents at a young age this quite often will be the ending result. Many of my friends have young dd's in this age group and most a nice young women.

For a couple of years she has been a little "spirited" mouthy once in a while, a little bit of a smart aleck but instead of punishing her I would usually go around it and look to the deeper issues.

I know hindsight is twenty/twenty, but this would of been the time to set and enforce the standards for your home.

Honestly, what I would do is take away all privliges, all activities, and tell her she can earn them back with good behavior. Sorry you're having such a hard time.

[Deja]

Victorian,
I am very sorry to hear that you experienced this kind of rejection from your mother at such an important time in your life. I know something about how deeply such experiences can wound, and my heart goes out to you.

I mean that very sincerely, even though I disagree with your remedies. To me, much of what you've described is reinforcement of the undesired behaviors and will not serve to change them, but to increase them. The OP seems to have already treated her daughter with a great deal of respect, and this is not causing her daughter to return that respect. I don't think all children respond the same; for some, modeling respect is enough, but this is not true across the board IMO.

I can understand however, how much you may have needed your mother, and it is not my desire to in any way invalidate the very powerful and real needs that may be underlying your words.

At one time I also believed that this was a developmental stage, but as I noted, my daughter did not go through it. Thirteen was a wonderful age for my daughter, and I've seen similar thirteen year old girls who were also homeschooled. I'm not sure if I could ever know all of the influences that created such a smooth sailing for these young women, but I do think being removed from the public school system played a significant part.

When we tell ourselves that this is the appropriate and expected behavior in this age group, I'm not sure that we aren't missing something.

Adolescence is not the same across the globe. The behaviors described in this thread may be a cultural thing. I've come to believe that over the years, and there is some empirical evidence to support my opinion.

http://www.s-r-a.org/youth.html

EXCERPT:
“There are markedly different ‘adolescences’ in other parts of the world that stand apart from Western accounts of what does or should happen during this transitional period.”

Demographic Trends Affecting Youth Around the World, M. Elizabeth Fussell, Margaret Greene

[Deja]

BTW, I am a believer in authoritative, not NOT authoritarian, parenting.

[Victorian]

First of all, thank you for your kind words. I stuggle with this as my mother died when I was 20 and I never had the closure that I needed with this issue. Although we had a good relationship in the end, I always felt like the "guilty" one.

Although I do agree that extreme forms of teenage rebellion is pushed along by our culture including TV and school, I do think that all cultures have customs that help a child to make the transition to adulthood. It seems that in ours we want to treat teens like children (i.e. grounding them to their rooms and taking away priviledges) and all of a sudden "your 18, get out". I think that the OP is feeling a lot of hostility toward her daughter and if she thinks that her dd can't feel that, she is wrong. Young teens are changing. Did you know that women can identify their children through smell? Well (as we know) the smell changes at puberty and we can no longer use their smell to bond to them. Puberty is about moving away from children to adulthood. Time to question the rules and why adults are in charge. Yes we have to live together and get along. But they are becoming more as adults than children. The way that we relate to them has to change as well. Treating them like children just humiliates them.

Do you know what my aunt did? She ignored my behavior. She took me shopping, pulled me out of school and "ran amok" just out of the blue. She gave me boundaries and EXPECTED me to follow them. And I did. She never yelled at me. She never nagged. She would simply point out things such as "sure you can go to the mall with your friend, as soon as you put away the laundry." Never a power struggle. She held me when I was hurting and let me sit in my bedroom with a book all day when I didn't want to interact with them. Eventually I become a wonderful, nice, helpful person (boy, I am just wonderful )

I don't think that we need to "change" our young adult's behaviour. I think that we need to help them get through this stage with their self-esteems intact. We need them to trust us because in the later teen years they are going to NEED us. We need to help them weather the storm that is their existance right now. If you break that trust, it is so hard to get it back.