When culture and citizenship don’t match, bi-cultural families, ex-pat kids…

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I would love some resources about children who grow up in countries other than the country of their citizenship ~ in a culture other than that of their parents.

The short history is that DH is currently working for US department of defense schools in Germany.

I have big concerns about raising Aya in the German culture/system for the long term.

DH (who was raised in this way) thinks the opportunity to experience two cultures (and languages) is well worth any challenge she might face as a result.

I think that growing up with US citizenship/parents working for the US in German culture, schools, friends and etc. is a huge problem, not necessarily worth the benefit of guaranteed bi-cultural and bilingualism.

I also have some pretty big issues with the German school system (middle and highschool) but also big problems with sending her to the US schools here.


There are many other issues for us and staying is not really an option but this issue is something that DH and I disagree on so thoroughly that I thought I should examine my feelings a little more.


I’d love to have some resources, a discussion and to hear your experiences and opinions. Thanks so much.

[velochic]

Hey there... not much advice on resources, but I was wondering why you don't like the German school system. You might have information to which I'm not privy.

Are you living in Germany now or in Canada? For some reason I was thinking you are Canadian or live there. I don't know anything about Canadian school systems, but I'm curious to know the differences. Thanks! I'm not keen on dd going through an American school system.

ETA: I think in general it's not a bad thing to have a child raised in a new culture (not yours or dh's). But it's important that at home they understand the culture from which they come. Dh is Armenian, raised in Turkey, and he still shows more Turkish traits than Armenian. We're trying to raise dd American/Armenian, but we see a lot of other cultures imposing. It's not a bad thing... just... I don't know. Guess I think it's good to have many perspectives on life.

[USAmma]

I'm sorta coming at this from a different angle, but my dh is from India (a new US citizen) and we had intended to raise our dd's to know both cultures very well. Unfortunately it's not happening like I want it to, life gets busy. When they are older we plan to go to India every 2-3 years for an extended visit so they can get to know their Indian side, and we plan to attend Indian cultural festivals.

I know that there are some ex-pate groups in Germany, maybe having your dc be around other American families and children would help. There are international schools, too. Of course there's always homeschooling.

I see my friend struggling with this a lot.SHe's from Germany and has no plans at the present time to be a U.S. Citizen. Her dh and kids are American. She is trying to teach them German and has joined a German playgroup. She struggles with homeschooling the kids and talking about American history and patriotism because she does not view her kids as Americans, but dual German-Americans. SHe just doesn't want to give them over as 100% Americans because it would be giving up part of her own identity.

Darshani

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by velochic

I was wondering why you don't like the German school system.

I don’t know too much but I’m really uncomfortable with the Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium issue. Like I said, I’m not that knowledgeable about it but I don’t know anyone who feels good about the system ~ especially the fact that they get ‘tracked’ at about age 10.

I’m from the US living in Heidelberg, btw.

Yea, I agree with the exposure thing. It’s not that I don’t want her exposed. I just really worry about the implications of sending her to German school (fully socialized in Germany) with US citizenship.

What about you? You’re raising your child American/Armenian in Germany? What is your family’s citizenships?

See, I would not have this issue if we were all immigrating. I don’t have any conflicts with being an immigrant (we wanted to immigrate out of the US for a long time). But, we’re *not* immigrants, yk?

Originally Posted by USAmma

I know that there are some ex-pate groups in Germany, maybe having your dc be around other American families and children would help. There are international schools, too. Of course there's always homeschooling.

USAmama, thanks for your perspective. The international schools are a possibility. That way Aya would meet people in a similar situation. I do know someone doing home schooling here but it’s not for me ~ plus it’s illegal.

Your friend’s situation would be similar to ours, I guess. Other than the fact that I’m a touch stuck on this citizenship thing.

I just have such a hard time wrapping my mind around a child being raised in a country and culture where they don’t have the legal right to say, yk? She would have the legal right to go back to the US but why would she want to and what kind of emotional stress are we talking about, yk?

Problem is that DH and I both have to make so many assumptions about our young child when we discuss this? I hate that DH mentions marriage as a solution for citizenship because that seems like a really unhealthy assumption to count on.

I don’t know. Like I said, we’re not staying. It’s just too much for me ~ too much baggage.

I guess I’m surprised that this isn’t a really ‘classic’ problem that’s written about and stuff. It seems like a big deal to me.

[Holland73]

These kids are called, third culture kids (TCK).

The best resource would be this website: http://www.tckworld.com/

There is also a list of suggested readings and resources on the website. Dr. Ruth Hill Unseem is the pioneer in working/researching/studying 3rd culture kids. She actually coined the term, "third culture kids".

[Holland73]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

Yea, I agree with the exposure thing. It’s not that I don’t want her exposed. I just really worry about the implications of sending her to German school (fully socialized in Germany) with US citizenship.

Just because your daughter goes to a German school and is fully integrated in German culture, will NOT affect her US citizenship. In fact, if I remember correctly, German citizenship is only granted through marriage to a German national or 1st generation German blood relations. Plus, I don't believe that the German government allows dual citizenship, I cannot remember.

My son was born in the Netherlands and carries both US and Dutch citizenship and will for the rest of his life. My X was Dutch. The Netherlands is one of the very few EU countries (Ireland is another one), although it is just beginning to change its laws right now, that allows dual citizenship.

[calpurnia]

The only place I'm coming from on this is as someone who knows a lot of people who went to international school :LOL (My partner is at a university that has more foreign students than UK students)

Seriously, these kids are from all over the place. Their parents are from one country, they grew up in another country (for which they are generally not citizens), and here they are at university in yet another country. It seems (from what I know of them) to have been a really constructive experience. At international school they met so many different people, have friends from all cultures (although limited socio-economic backgrounds), and seem to approach life with a maturity of vision & understanding that a lot of their peers don't have. Their understanding of themselves seems to be rooted in their family, & in Europe, or wherever, rather than in their passport. The passport is just a tool for life, KWIM?

The Netherlands is one of the very few EU countries (Ireland is another one), although it is just beginning to change its laws right now, that allows dual citizenship.

The UK allows dual citizenship as well - I grew up in England with dual citizenship for UK and South Africa.

[Holland73]

Originally Posted by calpurnia

The UK allows dual citizenship as well - I grew up in England with dual citizenship for UK and South Africa.

Yes, but does the UK allow dual citizenship with the US, that would be the question? Many countries have different rules for dual citizenship with different countries.

[Mommiska]

ICM - reading your second post, I can see where your concern is, and I think I would share it, to a certain extent. I think it's a wonderful opportunity for your child to grow up exposed to a different culture - but I can understand the concern that she could grow up feeling 'German', completely integrated into German culture, and yet have no 'right' to remain in Germany...

I'm really not sure what you do about that...I do think the opportunity to grow up bilingual/in a different culture is an amazing one.

I guess I'm in a slighly different situation, as I'm American, living in Scotland. My dh is British, so my kids all have dual American/British citizenship. I do find that it is important to me that my kids know that they are American, as well as British - but then, they will have the right, as adults, to live in whichever country (or even in another country within the EU) they choose.

[calpurnia]

Originally Posted by Holland73

Yes, but does the UK allow dual citizenship with the US, that would be the question? Many countries have different rules for dual citizenship with different countries.

Yup, they do. DP's little brother has dual US-UK citizenship.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by calpurnia

Yup, they do. DP's little brother has dual US-UK citizenship.

How old is he? Most countries make you decide at 18 and won't allow dual citizenship as an adult. The US is one of them, technically, although it's a matter of reciprocity. Matter of fact, some countries make you take an oath that you deny the rights of being citizen of any other country.

Dd is a dual citizen of US and Turkey until she is 18.

[velochic]

We are American and Turkish by citizenship, but American and Armenian culturally. Dd isn't even old enough for kindergarten (preschool) yet, so our experience with school is a moot point.

We do have good friends (Armenian - raised in Turkey like dh) that have had their kids in German and American schools over the past 10 years. Hands down, they consider the German schools to be much better academically and socially. Academically, it's no comparison. Any european school is going to be better than a US school, but in Germany, they seem to be much more sensitive when it comes to ethnicity. They almost bend over backwards to make all the kids feel equal.

Too tired to finish this... will talk more tomorrow.

[Leatherette]

I was born in the US, left before age 2, and didn't come back until I was 16. I went to International/American schools, and there was a major culture shock when I moved here. I still feel like an outsider a lot of the time. I missed a lot of popular culture (Maybe a good thing!).

Overall, though, I feel that the experience has made me who I am, and I am glad that I had a unique upbringing. One thing I could not hack at all was British schools. I lasted 2 weeks in one. I don't know how similar it was to German schools, but it was very rigid.

I lived in Puerto Rico, Greece, Malaysia and Singapore. Maybe it would have been different if I had only experienced one other culture, but I ended up not being particularly wedded to any one, including American.

L.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Holland73

Just because your daughter goes to a German school and is fully integrated in German culture, will NOT affect her US citizenship.

Sorry, I guess I wasn’t clear. I have absolutely no worries about her US citizenship. I worry about her wanting to stay in Germany. She does not have citizenship for the county where she would have spent her life if we were to stay here.

More later but I wanted to address this before we got carried away with this issue.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by velochic

Hands down, they consider the German schools to be much better academically and socially.

In this situation I think people are comparing Gymnasium schools (where one gets their Abitur (diploma and right to enter Uni) to US schools. There is a big problem (from what I can tell) to comparing US schools to German schools because the system is so different.

Originally Posted by Leatherette

Maybe it would have been different if I had only experienced one other culture, but I ended up not being particularly wedded to any one, including American.

Your situation is interesting because it’s largely what DH felt (although he went to US military schools overseas).

The difference with us is that I don’t want to move around so DC would stay in one spot. She would have roots to this place ~ already does, actually.


I guess this is a highly personal thing. I think I’m reacting to my life ~ to my parents and my ‘home’ where I grew up. I’m reacting because as an adult I find living a new culture to be challenging and somewhat isolating.

Also, DH and I have looked into immigrating and find it daunting so I have ‘issues’ with expecting my child to accomplish immigration.

See, I want all kinds of wonderful things for her. In many ways, I think it would be exciting for her to immigrate, travel, learn new cultures, work all over the world, have bi-cultural children and etc. I just feel that this choice would *force* that on her and I’m not that comfortable with this, especially with the citizenship issue.

I will definitely look up Third Culture Kids. I think some of my SILs read it and found it interesting. Good tip!

[BinahYeteirah]

bs"d

I am an American living in Australia with my dh who is a dual citizen of Israel and Australia. He is currently applying for American citizenship, although we plan to stay in Australia for the time being. Dd is a dual citizen of the US and Australia. Dh will have to give up his Israeli citizenship when he becomes an American citizen. We are all Jewish, and consider that our main identification, and we feel able to participate in dh's Israeli side through our Jewish religious and cultural lives. Dh lived in The US from age 14 until last year and speaks English with an American accent, so most people consider him an American despite the fact that he has never been a citizen of the US and that he was born in Israel.

I see your issue, considering your dd would grow up feeling German, yet not have a right to stay in Germany, vote, etc. For us, these issues are not present. We anticipate having our whole family eventually having dual citizenship in the US and Australia (red tape, but not too difficult) and being able to move freely between them. It is also nice to know we can go anywhere that has a Jewish community and feel at home that way. Dd will attend Jewish schools wherever we end up living.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Your husband’s situation might be similar to what I’m worried about for Aya. He grew up in the US without citizenship to Israeli parents? Did his parents largely associate with Israel over the US?

What were his experiences with this? I see he’s choosing US over Israeli citizenship, which he was granted through marriage?

[BinahYeteirah]

bs"d

I think my dh's position is different from what your dd could experience. I am not super familiar with the US immigration laws, but it is my superficial understanding that once a potential immigrant to the US has held a greencard (permanent residency) for 5 years, that person becomes eligible to apply for US citizenship. My dh could have applied for citizenship many years ago (he was a permanent resident from age 14 or so), even if he had never married me or had an American child. He just put it off, because he didn't much care about citizenship rights (voting, running for public office, etc.). He was able to attend college in the US on grants and work as a non-citizen, and that was enough for him.

He will be choosing US citizenship over his Israeli citizenship. I don't think that was a hard decision for him. He feels more Jewish than Israeli, and his parents were actually Romanian immigrants to Israel. I think of them all as wandering Jews. They are world citizens. My PIL have even lived and worked in Japan for many years. Besides, according to current laws it is easy for Jews to immigrate to Israel.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Yes, I can see the difference. Honestly, I don’t know much about immigration in Germany. It seems to change quite often but a superficial look gives me the impression that it’s more difficult than in the US. I do know that birth does not guarantee it ~ even if the parents are legal residents for under 15 years!

That’s part of what’s fueling this for me. I know ‘of’ a few people who were raised here and wish to stay but are kind of forced into a less fulfilling life because their options are limited by a lack of citizenship.

*Then* there’s the issue that this could all be drastically different in 20 years! The employment rate here is terrible but the birth rate is very low. There’s a good chance hat the immigration laws could change if the birth rate stays low and the economy improves…among other things.

Who knows All I know at this point is that making choices as a family *now* for our child’s future are difficult with this much speculation.

I guess on some level I just feel giving her the legal right to pursue life where she is raised is ‘basic’ and the other stuff (multi cultural experience) is an extra, yk?

Veolchic ~ I'd really love to hear more of your thoughts about this!

[calpurnia]

Originally Posted by velochic

How old is he? Most countries make you decide at 18 and won't allow dual citizenship as an adult. The US is one of them, technically, although it's a matter of reciprocity. Matter of fact, some countries make you take an oath that you deny the rights of being citizen of any other country.

He's 17. His family is under the impression that his citizenship of the US will be forfeit if he becomes an MP (or a QC) or joins the army. And I went with him to renew his passport recently, & it's got an expiry date past his 18th birthday