ICM - you're right about citizenship here. My best friend is American, married to a German and they have two kids, both born in Germany. My friend does not have German citizenship and (I can ask her again), but I don't think she can get citizenship at all. She is allowed to work. Her two kids have dual citzenship, which they have to forfeit at 18 if they keep their US citizenship. I believe that they will always have the right to work in the EU, though.
I know in particular that Turks in Germany have it rough. The laws recently changed to help them a little (not much, though), but for generations, even though they immigrated from Turkey 3 generations ago, Turks could not get citizenship even if they had been born here. Same went for others. It wasn't good enough to be born in Germany... you had to have German parents. Actually it is still a lot like that. It's up to the local official as to whether or not you get citizenship. Unlike in the US where if you satisfy all the criteria, you are entitled to citizenship, in Germany, you can satisfy the criteria, but it's still the decision of the local official granting the citizenship. Also, I just asked and indeed, Germany does not recognize dual citizenship for adults. You have to give up citizenship of all other countries and you have to show proof from that foreign consulate that you have done so. I know that in the US they make you "declare" that you are not a citizen of any other country when you have your citizenship swearing in, but they don't require proof. Dh still has his Turkish citizenship, too. I know he never travels on his Turkish passport, but he owns property in Istanbul, so he has to maintain his Turkish citizenship in order to pay taxes etc. (Boy this is complicated!) :LOL
But life really is drastically different for citizens and residents in Germany. Things like guaranteeing a spot in a good kindergarten, for example or getting a good flat. Of course, you can't vote, which would be a biggie for me. Healthcare and pensions are no different for non-citzens (dh has a German pension he's entitled to when he retires). Aya could probably stay in Germany to work all of her life, but yeah, she would probably always feel like an outsider. And Germans, for all of their kindness and being such a wonderful people, do have their ways of subtly letting foreigners know they're not German. Heck, you call a Bavarian "German" and you'll get your head bitten off. My German isn't good, (especially the Bavarian dialect, which is quite different from "hochdeutsch"), and I've been harassed a couple of times for it. Once from the hausverwaltung (kid was too loud) and once at the DB counter buying train tickets. The police also have a great tendency to stop foreign-looking people on the streets (at least in Munich) and ask for their papers. If you look middle-eastern, you're really targeted.
This is getting to be a novel, but I wanted to add that having lived all over the world, like you, ICM, do you think we (or our kids for that matter) will ever be totally happy in one country? There are things to like and hate everywhere we go. But I will say one thing - of all the places, so far Germany is the place I am most happy to raise a child. At least Germany has a "no spanking" law.
P.S. I know you're up north, but we have a forum of english-speakers in Munich. You can post general questions about Germany, too. Here's a link... have a look around the site. It's a great resource for Americans/Canuks/Brits/Irish, etc.
www.toytownmunich.com
I'm velochic there, too. I don't post much, but I read a lot.
Cheers!
I know in particular that Turks in Germany have it rough. The laws recently changed to help them a little (not much, though), but for generations, even though they immigrated from Turkey 3 generations ago, Turks could not get citizenship even if they had been born here. Same went for others. It wasn't good enough to be born in Germany... you had to have German parents. Actually it is still a lot like that. It's up to the local official as to whether or not you get citizenship. Unlike in the US where if you satisfy all the criteria, you are entitled to citizenship, in Germany, you can satisfy the criteria, but it's still the decision of the local official granting the citizenship. Also, I just asked and indeed, Germany does not recognize dual citizenship for adults. You have to give up citizenship of all other countries and you have to show proof from that foreign consulate that you have done so. I know that in the US they make you "declare" that you are not a citizen of any other country when you have your citizenship swearing in, but they don't require proof. Dh still has his Turkish citizenship, too. I know he never travels on his Turkish passport, but he owns property in Istanbul, so he has to maintain his Turkish citizenship in order to pay taxes etc. (Boy this is complicated!) :LOL
But life really is drastically different for citizens and residents in Germany. Things like guaranteeing a spot in a good kindergarten, for example or getting a good flat. Of course, you can't vote, which would be a biggie for me. Healthcare and pensions are no different for non-citzens (dh has a German pension he's entitled to when he retires). Aya could probably stay in Germany to work all of her life, but yeah, she would probably always feel like an outsider. And Germans, for all of their kindness and being such a wonderful people, do have their ways of subtly letting foreigners know they're not German. Heck, you call a Bavarian "German" and you'll get your head bitten off. My German isn't good, (especially the Bavarian dialect, which is quite different from "hochdeutsch"), and I've been harassed a couple of times for it. Once from the hausverwaltung (kid was too loud) and once at the DB counter buying train tickets. The police also have a great tendency to stop foreign-looking people on the streets (at least in Munich) and ask for their papers. If you look middle-eastern, you're really targeted.
This is getting to be a novel, but I wanted to add that having lived all over the world, like you, ICM, do you think we (or our kids for that matter) will ever be totally happy in one country? There are things to like and hate everywhere we go. But I will say one thing - of all the places, so far Germany is the place I am most happy to raise a child. At least Germany has a "no spanking" law.
P.S. I know you're up north, but we have a forum of english-speakers in Munich. You can post general questions about Germany, too. Here's a link... have a look around the site. It's a great resource for Americans/Canuks/Brits/Irish, etc.
www.toytownmunich.com
I'm velochic there, too. I don't post much, but I read a lot.
Cheers!
