I don't think I can do this with her anymore . . .

[snuggly mama]

My dd is almost 10, and I have no idea how I'm going to cope with her anymore. We have just spent the past 45 minutes arguing about clothes (it's Palm Sunday, so I think it's important to be dressed nicely for church). I offered nicely to help her find something appropriate, but she found something wrong with every outfit. She yelled at me, at dh, at her brother. I finally gave up about 5 min. ago and said, "Just wear whatever you want. I don't want to do this with you now." Then she started crying, begging me to help her look nice. This happens ALL THE TIME!!!! :

Just a little perspective -- I rarely play clothes police. She wears a uniform to school and is allowed to pretty much wear what she wants the rest of the time. If we're going out (friends house, etc.), I just ask that the clothes be neat and clean.

Dd is incredibly intelligent, interesting, and unique. She is a fascinating person. She's also the most stubborn, willful, belligerent, and occassionally downright mean person I know. She can be truly vicious to her brother, berating him for being dumb, screaming at him, the whole works. She has incredible rages where she throws things, yells at everyone and screams for up to an hour. And yes, she is in therapy -- has been for almost two years. Her therapist, whom I really like, thinks she has anxiety disorder. I'm starting to wonder if it's more than that. She's been like this since she was a baby, and I just can't imagine how to cope with this for much longer.

When dd was three, I said to dh, "I hope I can figure out how to handle her by the time she's five, or we're in trouble". When she was five, I hoped I would figure it out by eight. Now she's almost ten, and the thought of her as a teenager makes me want to cry. I really want a good relationship with her, I try hard to be loving with her, but truly, she pushes my buttons so well that sometimes I end up yelling right back at her : .

If you've read this far, thank you! I'm open to suggestions and advice on building a better future for her and I.

[Coffee Mom]

Pick your battles

Well like you said, you just spent 45 minutes arguing and at the end of the argument you told your daughter to wear what she wanted. That tells me that either the clothes issue wasn't that important to you, or she wore you down and you caved in. I think it's important to avoid power struggles, you are the Mom there shouldnt be any question who has the power. When I have had issues with my daughters that were important to me, I would explain why I felt a certain way, and if they wanted to argue i would tell them, sorry you feel that way but that's the way it is. If they wanted to argue, I would calmly say, here are the consequences, whether it be no tv, no snacks, early bed time or whatever I felt appropriate at the time. Arguing never accomplishes anything and as I have always said, I will discuss any issue but I will not argue. My daughters are now older than yours is, but we rarely have long drawn out arguments anymore. Sure I get whining at times and they tell me I'm not being fair but they know I call the shots. I'm pretty open minded and my girls have alot of freedom now because they have proven to be responsible. They still don't get their own way all the time, but I can't remember the last time we had a long drawn out argument. Pick your battles, understand what issues are important to you, explain you reasoning, and follow through with consequences when necessary. Just my 2 cents. Jan

[Dar]

With intense children, I think it's really important for everyone to learn to step back and calm down. It's hard for anyone - you or your child - to make good decisions when you're worked up and emotional.

Next time, after 5 minutes or so, maybe say something like, "Okay, figuring this out is clearly a tougher job than I thought it would be. Let's take a break and have some tea (walk the dogs, feed the chickens, whatever relaxing-sort of thing works at your house, either together or apart) and then see if we have some new ideas in a bit." If she's feeling overwhlemed, that will give her a chance to calm down, and Rain often comes up with good compromises after a half hour or so of doing something else.

It's important, I think, to stay on her side, focus on the two of you working together to solve this problem...

I agree with not playing clothes police. I think it's important to not feel that everything your child does is a reflection on you. If your ten year old dresses inappropriately for an event, and you've given her imformation about what kind of clothing is appropriate, then I'd bring something I thought was a better choice in case she changed her mind but let her go with it... my experience is that sometimes my child is more right about these things than I am, anyway.

Dar

[snuggly mama]

Originally Posted by Coffee Mom

I think it's important to avoid power struggles, you are the Mom there shouldnt be any question who has the power.

I think that's true, but we've been power-struggling since day one! She is definately not the type of child to take no for an answer without making sure she argues her own point.

It really isn't about the clothes, it's more about finding a balance between being the "enforcer" of the rules and giving her some autonomy. Her temperment doesn't really allow much room for calm, easygoing discussion -- she's a zero-to-sixty kid. It's either all smiles, or raging bull, and not much in between.

Dar, I like the idea of taking a break. Sometimes it feels like we're just going round and round, and I don't know how to stop without looking like I'm caving. Also, this has been going on for so long, I've fallen into patterns that I'd really like to break. And much as I hate to admit it, sometimes she IS more right than me about things. (Case in point: hardly anyone at church this morning was dressed "nicely", and most of the kids wore jeans or casual clothes. )

[christianmomof3]

Well, she sounds a bit like my 12 yo dd. Mine does not throw things or is in therapy, but she was diagnosed with adhd last year and therapy was suggested - I just could not find a child therapist on our insurance and no one would call me back and I gave up. But, she is mean to her brother, yells, argues - sometimes I swear that if I told her it was daytime she would argue that it was NOT Daytime, it was in fact NIGHT! A few weeks ago we were at the orthopedist because she broke her arm roller blading and she got a sling and splint and we were going to get a cast Monday, but the splint was bothering her and we went to the pediatritian to get it re-done, but they don't do that so they sent us to a diff orthopedist on Friday and got a cast, but then it got too loose and she griped and complained for days so I had to take her back in and she told them all about it and (sorry) then at some point I told them that she thinks she knows everything and she said "I DO know everything and you just need to learn that mom!"
I don't know the answers, but I certainly sympathise.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by snuggly mama

Sometimes it feels like we're just going round and round, and I don't know how to stop without looking like I'm caving.

I think this is important. As parents, we're told to be firm and decisive, and not give in... and yet we want our children to do exactly the opposite! How can we expect them to learn to say, "You know, Mom, I thought about it and you were right" if we never say that to them! And even better than saying that would be to be able to reframe the argument as a problem for both people to solve together... "OKay, I want XXXX and you want XXX, so let's try to figure out what might work for both of us. What ideas do you have?"

I don't think it's "caving" to admit you may be wrong, or to try to find a solution that works for both parties. Our society teaches us to focus on "getting what you want" and winning the argument, and I don't think that's right... and it sure doesn't work with kids like this!

Dar

[kathywiehl]

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. My dd and I have had some huge relationship issues lately, too. What you describe could have easily happened in my house and so far the only thing I've learned in all my research is that I can't argue with her. I have found that for certain things I just need to put my foot down and say "This is how it is going to be and if you don't cooperate, then this is what is going to happen" Then I have to walk away and keep my fingers crossed that she will decide to cooperate and be prepared to follow through with appropriate consequences if she doesn't. Now that I have started doing this instead of arguing, she has been much more cooperative and argues less. I swear some kids just argue for the sake of it. My dd doesn't do it to get her way, but I think it's a way for her to get more attention. I've started trying to spend more time with her each day and less time arguing and things have slowly started to get better.

I don't know how this could have applied to your situation, maybe saying something like "Okay, these are the outfits I think would be appropriate for today, you need to choose one and get ready for church. If you do not wear something appropriate then ________ is what the consequence will be, it's up to you." I think the key is to do whatever you can not to argue with her at all and stay very very calm. Someone told me that the best way to get someone to stop yelling is to whisper to them so that the only way they can hear you is to quiet down.

I don't know how others here might feel about this, but it's what's been working for us.

[Ruthla]

I don't fight my kids over clothing. I DO set certain standards for modesty- certain items of clothing ("belly button shirts", pants with words on the tush, etc) never make it into their wardrobes in the first place- no debate, no discussion, I have ultimate veto power.

Beyond that, I don't care. As long as the clothing fits and is appropriate for the season, I don't care if it's not fancy enough/too fancy, the top and bottom clash, or ds wants to wear his sister's outgrown dress to school, it's fine with me.

I don't plan to set limits on their wearing of make-up either. So far, the issue hasn't come up, but if it comes up in middle school the only rule will be that they have to buy their own.

[sovereignqueen]

Hungs Mamma! Sounds like me as a teen, minus the therepy. My mom put an incredible ammount of pressure and lots of rules on me. My younger brother did not have all the rules (but lots of pressure). I was very hard on my mom as a teen, but she knew just how to hurt my feelings (at least it seems to me). But after a year of two away at college, I grew out of it. I now have a masters and a family (and only throw stuff animals at DH is he really deserves it :LOL ). I would just try to be very fair, have clear rules and guidelines and pick your battles. Try hard not to yell, its the hurtful things said in the heat of a fight that tend to linger most. Maybe devide up play cloths/curch clothes/nice cloths in sections and say something like "you can where whatever you like from the xx section."

[snuggly mama]

You all have given me quite a bit to think about, especially thinking about how my own actions might be playing into things. I've always considered dd to be pretty stubborn and argumentative, but I don't think I realized that I can dig in just as much and then we're both trying to "win" instead of work out the problem.

I'm also thinking part of the clothing issue (since that's such a focus of the intensity right now) is that very little of it is actually HER clothes. 90% of her clothing is hand-me-downs from a cousin. They're great clothes, but maybe dd needs more of a say in her own style, ykwim? It never occurred to me that the lack of control over what's in her closet, coupled with my occasional "clothes police" attitude, could trigger quite a bit of anger!

I'd like to work on connecting more with her, though I have to admit that it's always been difficult for me . What do you do to connect with your preteen dd's? I don't get much one-on-one w/her, but I'm willing to work on that.

[willowsmom]

Originally Posted by snuggly mama

I've always considered dd to be pretty stubborn and argumentative, but I don't think I realized that I can dig in just as much and then we're both trying to "win" instead of work out the problem.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I was the exact same way with my mother...and it looks like Willow may be the same way with me. There are times that she is sooooooo willful and hard-headed...and I can't figure out how to "control" her...I have to stepback and think of the big picture...when she's older...(if I nurture her hard-headedness) she'll be a strong woman.

I am very much the type of person who has to have the last word...I've had to learn that instead of trying to "one-up"...I have to be comfortable to just be. I have a horrible self-esteem, and being in control gives me a sense of worthiness (however false that sense is)...

I really recommend getting your hands on "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It's got some very eye-opening stuff in it on how to co-exist with someone who's incredibly intense.

This can absolutely be one of the most amazing times in your relationship with your DD. That's the good news.

Please don't hesitate to PM me if you'd like...Your daughter sounds a lot like me when I was younger...and I remember what I was like and may be able to give you her perspective a bit....who knows..

Best of luck, at any rate...HTH.

Edited to say...Mary Sheedy Kurcinka also has a book called "Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles - Winning for a Lifetime" I haven't read it...but it may also have some good info...

[kathywiehl]

Originally Posted by snuggly mama

I'd like to work on connecting more with her, though I have to admit that it's always been difficult for me . What do you do to connect with your preteen dd's? I don't get much one-on-one w/her, but I'm willing to work on that.

I need to work on this as well, so I'll be watching this thread in the hopes of some good ideas.

[snuggly mama]

Willowsmom -- my copy of Raising Your Spirited Child is very well-worn from her toddler/preschool years, though I hadn't thought to look at it lately.

I'm going to check out that other book, though. Anything that helps!!

[MarineWife]

I didn't read everyone's comments or your responses so forgive me if this has been covered. I just had a quick and simple thought. With this particular situation, I would tell my child, "You either wear something appropriate or you can stay home." If need be, I would explain what is and is not appropriate for such an occasion. End of discussion. You may not consider having your child miss Palm Sunday church and think this is not an option. However, imo, when it comes down to it, peace in the home is more important than whether or not your entire family makes it to church every time. (I should probably make it clear that I do not go to church so don't understand the significance of this to some people.)

[Tupelo Honey]

I think you are on the right track with thinking she may need more say in her own wardrobe, in addition to the other good suggestions and insights from this thread. Imagine if other people had picked out 90% of your clothes! I know a whole new wardrobe is porbably not practical, but maybe a few cute tops to go with pants she has and a few accessories that she picks out would make her feel more like she has choices about her own wardrobe.

My oldest is only 7, but I teach highschool and taught middle school for 6 years, so I feel like I've learned some things about dealing with adolescents and teens (and I teach in very "urban" schools). I can remember once getting into a stand-off with a very rough young man even though we usually got along well. It got to the point where neither of us felt like we could back down, and we both said some mean and inappropriate things because of it. When it was over, I thought "I am NEVER doing that again." Later I apologized to him and told him even though I need him to do what I ask, I recognized that I had handled the situation in the wrong way. He appreciated this, since I doubt any adult had ever apologized to him before, and we never had a problem again. I think too often as adults we get caught up in worrying that people will think we can't control our kids. Whereas I think my job as a parent is not to control my kids, but to guide them and teach them how to control themselves. I think being able to admit when you're wrong and apologize is one of the most important qualities a person can have, and the only way to teach that is to model it. I'm not saying in this particular situation it was all you, but saying to your daughter "It is important to me for you to dress appropriately, but I realize that fighting with you about it didn't help. Can you think of a better way we could have handled this?" might go a long way toward making your dd feel validated and heard.

I should probably add that I was controlled to the extreme by my father (again, not saying this is you), and as a result have an oppositional defiant personality. In college I walked out of more than one job because a manager told me to do something in a way that I perceived as unnecessary flexing of authority. To this day I really have no respect for authority, but I have grown and matured enough to learn how to keep myself out of those situations as much as possible. I also feel that I struggle with building intrinsic motivation because when you are controlled (or feel too controlled), all your motivation comes from outside yourself, and you never get a chance to develop it internally. Again, my situation was more extreme, but I think shades of these issues come into play in most families as they try to redefine the roles of parent and child to fit adolescence and teen-hood.

[Deniselx]

Snuggly mama said: What do you do to connect with your preteen dd's?

I have a 10 year old dd and wish I could connect with her more also. I'm really interested in reading replies to this question. I previously replied, a few weeks ago, in a thred about 11 year old dds. The thread took a different turn... and I never got a reply. I'm still trying to connect with my spirited dd. Any suggestions?

[snuggly mama]

Just an update . . .

I'm working hard on connecting again with dd, and I've been doing a lot of thinking about our relationship. Things have always been difficult between us, even when she was an infant. I was a young mom (by choice) and my expectations of a newborn were nothing like my reality. Dd never did anything like the books said, and I had no idea what to do. I had never heard of Dr. Sears, knew nothing about AP, and was hopelessly lost. I was bf'ing, though, and slowly learned more about AP, but it wasn't until ds was born that I really "got" it. I often feel guilty about the way I parented her as an infant.

Anyway, I know those dynamics have carried over because I am/have been uncomfortable being physically affectionate with her and find myself expecting more of her than her sibs. I hope it isn't too late to develop a close, meaningful relationship with her that will carry us through the turbulence of adolescence into adulthood. I really do love this child with all my heart, and I want very much to improve things.

So, what have I been doing? So far, we've spent time together playing a board game, I've been deliberately finding ways to be more affectionate (back rub, frequent hugs, etc. -- all w/respecting her needs, of course), and I'm working at realistic expectations. Dd is sick today, so a little extra attention goes a long way!!

Thank you mamas for your suggestions and insight so far!

[MarineWife]

One way I was told to do to connect with my teen is to do things with him that he wants to do without any judgement (that's the hard part sometimes). For example, at least once a week set aside time to whatever the child wants to do and then follow through with it. You can ask them to think of things to do ahead of time. These things can sometimes involve the entire family and sometimes just mom or just dad.

[Deniselx]

My dd was difficult to connect with as a baby also. She wouldn't let me hold her or rock her very much. She would get restless within a few minutes in my arms, she'd cry and try to wiggle her way out.

In fact, ever since her birth (and she is 10 now), I've usually felt that she was pushing me away. Of course there have been some very precious moments that I remember and try to remind myself of regularly (when she is feeling sick or in conflicts with dh are moments when she accepts my affection), but the general feeling is that we are worlds from each other... and that's a very painful feeling. I do the board games, I do the mom-daughter shopping, I invite her to bake with me, watch movies with me, ect. She most often refuses and I ask again (and she refuses again) but I don't insist... hoping she'll eventually come around on her own. She is a very intelligent, active and sociable child who always has plans with dh, with her friends (including the frequent slumber parties that I finally agree to organize on her request), with her cousins, with her grand-ma, etc. It just seems that whenever she is dealing with me alone, things go wrong. Obviously, I can't ask anything of her or offer any comment (about clothes or anything else) without getting the side-glance and the "didn't you see the sign on my door that says to not enter?".

I'm having a hard time finding solutions. I think that mostly, I feel hurt. Dd probably feels hurt also (why else would she push me away?). I've tried to talk about this with her, but she won't have a conversation with me. In the end, I feel so hurt by her negative responses to me that we often end up arguing, and I end up feeling incompetent as a mother.

I don't know what I'm aming for in writing all of this. Maybe ideas on how to connect more with my dd...
Maybe I'm also trying to find out if other moms have experienced something similar.

[Tupelo Honey]

SM, that's great that you are finding some ways to connect. For the others also looking for ways to do this, I agree that meeting them on their level is key. Adolescents and teens need to feel validated and supported. They also tend to equate their identity with their interests. So when you show disdain for the things they like, they take it prsonally. Likewise when you show an interest in the things they like, they feel validated. That doesn't mean you need to be one of those dorky parents who try to act like they are their kid's age, though, lol. remeber the blond girl's mom on "Mean Girls"?

Do any of your kids like to read? Reading the same books, even if you don't read them out loud together, can give you someting to talk about and open discussions on other issues. So can watching movies or shows together. And when you get into the discussions, look at it as an opportunity to learn about the way your child views the world, rather than an opportunity to assert your views. Of course, it's ok to give your opinions too, but don't make it all about you having a "teachable moment." Let it be their chance to talk about things they might not otherwise bring up with you.

This may pertain more to full-blown teens, but I've seen a book at the bookstore called "Promise You Won't freak Out" that was written by a mother, her teen dd, and her college-aged ds. It looks like a really interesting dialogue about things that happen in the teen years and a family's ability (or inability) to have them out in the open.