Neglect?? - Page 4

[KellyB]

Where did you read that the children had reported their parents?

Originally Posted by OP

The final straw was when the children started claiming that their mother was hitting them. They had burises etc.

So, who were they saying this to, and why?
If they said this to a teacher, that seems like an indirect report to CPS, at least on the part of the older child...
maybe not, though...but if I'd told a teacher when I was 14 that my mom hit me, I'd have assumed it would be reported...

[Mothra]

I don't know if you understand that this is a mental health issue as much as a physical risk to the kids. We had neighbors that lived like this a few years ago. It was unbelievable. I looked at those pictures, and that is what it was like. Every few months the husband would have someone come and clean, usually when the wife was out of town, and it would be a matter of weeks before it was back to the way it was. Cleaning up will not do anything to help this situation until they get help, both of them. Talking to someone will not cure their mental illness.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by kellyb

So, who were they saying this to, and why?
If they said this to a teacher, that seems like an indirect report to CPS, at least on the part of the older child...
maybe not, though...but if I'd told a teacher when I was 14 that my mom hit me, I'd have assumed it would be reported...

Huh, I missed that, I should have searched the page for the word hit.

I would suppose that if the parents were not allowing them to have medical care, causing them to live in a squalid environment, if the children were not healthy...that if the child said his mother was hitting him, then she was hitting him.

I mean, I grew up in a clean house with otherwise wonderful and attentive parents, and my mother hit me. In fact, I think hitting is really common, a lot more common than all of that other stuff.

[party_of_seven]

Thanks for the input everyone.

Someone asked about the emotional state of the children....I would say that they are fine. They seem rather content with their living situation. They seem happy. They are so used to it I don't think that they see anything wrong. They are all well fed, and they all have clothes. They might be a little stinky on occasion, but they appear to be taken care of.

I think that the biggest reason that things have gotten out of control is because SIL and BIL have not actively guided and parented their children. They have let them fend for themselves. They feed them and clothe them, but other than that, they are free to do what they want. I think that since there are so many of them, BIL and SIL have just given up trying to be in control of what they do. When they bought the house they commented that it was great that all of the children's bedrooms were upstairs. They said that they would be giving the children free reign of the upstairs so that they could do what ever they wanted. I think that things just went downhill extremely fast after that.

I don't really think that there is physical abuse in the home. I think that the parents are frustrated, and probably spank, but but not anything that would constitute physical abuse by CPS standards.

Knowing the children, I could definately see how the children might lie about their parents hitting them. They are sneaky, and I wouldn't put it past them. BUT...knowing the frustration that the parents face, I can see where things might get out of control. That's why I said that I just don't know if there was any truth to that. I see the children fairly regularly, and I never see any bruises....and they seem happy.

If I saw something deeper than just the conditions of the house, I would have already called. The children are fed and clothed though, and they seem happy. The children have gotten the medical care they needed.

For right now, I am letting dh handle this. There are still several more months until the baby is born. They are having their first homebirth...not because they researched it and thought it was great, but because they don't have insurance. I know that they go to the midwife's office for appts. I am curious to see if a midwife will refuse to deliver them at home once she sees the house. If things aren't cleaned up by the time the baby is born, then I think CPS should step in.

[Mothra]

Children aren't sneaky by nature. Children become sneaky as a defense mechanism against being hit, even just "spanked".

I really hope this works out for the best for those kids.

[lotusdebi]

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[AnnMarie]

JMO but it sounds like he needs therapy, not having his kids taken away. I agree with the PP that it is a mental illness, and it can be dealt with. Getting therapy and learning how to deal with his home is far better than their children being in the foster care system. Maybe someone could try to talk to him about it first, before reporting him to CPS?

[Greaseball]

Joining late...

I am not the best housekeeper, and don't think highly of CPS, but I'll also be one to say you should call. The top priority should be the living conditions of the children, not your relationship with your siblings.

There are several possible ways this could play out:
1. You call. CPS does nothing and the kids continue living in squalor.
2. You call. CPS intervenes; kids stay where they are and parents are given help they need.
3. You call. Kids are removed from home; go to a good foster home, possibly one where they can all be together.
4. You call. Kids go to bad foster home, or are split up.
5. You don't call. Everything turns out OK.
6. You don't call. Kids' living conditions deteriorate further and cause accidents, illness, or other problems.
7. You don't call. Someone else intervenes.
8. Your relationship with your BIL is ruined.
9. Your relationship with your BIL improves.
10. Your relationship with your BIL does not change at all.

Which of these scenarios can you absolutely not live with? Which of these do you think is most likely to happen? If you were a child growing up in this house, what would you want?

There have been a few times I've called CPS (for stuff much less serious than this). Each time, I thought I'd go talk to the mom first, and it turned out to be a mistake - she just started being more secretive about the neglect or abuse.

[mamawanabe]

Originally Posted by Mothra

Children aren't sneaky by nature. Children become sneaky as a defense mechanism against being hit, even just "spanked".

I really hope this works out for the best for those kids.

Kids have innate personalities. Some are innately sneakier than others. My best friend doesn't spank and she is a wonderful AP mother. Her son does some pretty "sneaky" things (he is still a great kid).

[AnnMarie]

What about other agencies? Isn't there anything else out there to help parents in need of parenting classes or counseling? Wouldn't that be a much better approach? To fix the parents instead of sending the kids off to some foster home? Having been a foster parent and seeing how the system works (Doesn't.), that would be a last choice for me. I'd try other stuff first, and if that didn't work, then I would have no choice to call CPS.

[Mothra]

Originally Posted by mamawanabe

Kids have innate personalities. Some are innately sneakier than others. My best friend doesn't spank and she is a wonderful AP mother. Her son does some pretty "sneaky" things (he is still a great kid).

No, I agree with this. All kids do sneaky things, especially in the transition from preschool age to about five or six, maybe a little older. That's part of testing boundaries. However, have you ever been around kids who have been spanked or abused in some way? That's a completely different kind of sneaky, and that's the impression I got from her statement that these kids would lie about such a thing because they're sneaky. I think that's a different ballpark, no?

[KellyB]

Originally Posted by Mothra

No, I agree with this. All kids do sneaky things, especially in the transition from preschool age to about five or six, maybe a little older. That's part of testing boundaries. However, have you ever been around kids who have been spanked or abused in some way? That's a completely different kind of sneaky, and that's the impression I got from her statement that these kids would lie about such a thing because they're sneaky. I think that's a different ballpark, no?

Yeah, it is.
These kids wanted negative attention focused on the family for some reason.
I don't necessarily think the kids were being beaten, but there's something very bad, very dark going on there for the kids to make something like that up.
It really might just be the squalor...that will drive a kid insane.
Seriously...ask any member here who grew up like that. By the time a kid is 6 or 7, they see that their home is shamefully different than their friend's houses...not to mention the parental apathy.
That sucks.
I grew up like that...seasoned with various other forms of neglect and abuse, and I'm pretty sure I know why the kids were saying those things.
This is an enormous confession on my part, but when I was 11, I lied.
I told the truth at first, but no one listened.
It seemed as though no one cared unless I had bruises and scars, so I attributed accidental injuries to my parents. In my own defense, my father did throw things at me, thump me on the head daily when he was in a bad mood, and occationally chase me down and strangle me, screaming "I'm gonna kill you, you little bitch".
So I lied because I was desperate.
That said, I don't think this situation is as bad as mine was. And even if it is, I'm not sure I would have been better off in foster care, in retrospect.
I think squalor can be a vicious cycle...you're mentally ill, so you don't clean...but the filth contributes to the depression, ad infintum...
I honestly believe if we'd had a weekly cleaning service, it might have not ever gotten so bad all around.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Yeah, it is.
These kids wanted negative attention focused on the family for some reason.
I don't necessarily think the kids were being beaten, but there's something very bad, very dark going on there for the kids to make something like that up.
It really might just be the squalor...that will drive a kid insane.
Seriously...ask any member here who grew up like that. By the time a kid is 6 or 7, they see that their home is shamefully different than their friend's houses...not to mention the parental apathy.
That sucks.
I grew up like that...seasoned with various other forms of neglect and abuse, and I'm pretty sure I know why the kids were saying those things.
This is an enormous confession on my part, but when I was 11, I lied.
I told the truth at first, but no one listened.
It seemed as though no one cared unless I had bruises and scars, so I attributed accidental injuries to my parents. In my own defense, my father did throw things at me, thump me on the head daily when he was in a bad mood, and occationally chase me down and strangle me, screaming "I'm gonna kill you, you little bitch".
So I lied because I was desperate.
That said, I don't think this situation is as bad as mine was. And even if it is, I'm not sure I would have been better off in foster care, in retrospect.
I think squalor can be a vicious cycle...you're mentally ill, so you don't clean...but the filth contributes to the depression, ad infintum...
I honestly believe if we'd had a weekly cleaning service, it might have not ever gotten so bad all around.

Listen:

If your father was thumping you on the head and strangling you, and you told people that he was hitting you...you didn't lie. He was hitting you. Thumping you on the head is hitting you. Strangling you? Counts by me as physical abuse. If you had to say "I got this bruise from my dad" and really you got it when you tripped...I still don't think you lied. The essence of the thing was true.

But now I understand why you are having this issue about whether the children are telling the truth.

Can I also say, my heart is breaking for you that you are carrying around a feeling that you did something wrong about this. You didn't do anything wrong. It was really good that you figured out a way to stick up for yourself. thank God you are an adult now and safe.

I also don't think these children lied when they said that their mom hit them. Why would a child lie about that when it's so very common? Parents hit their children in anger all the time. My mom never bruised me up or anything, but she struck me hard and kicked me when she lost her temper. You don't have to break bones or raise welts for hitting to be abusive. Should CPS or teachers and other responsible adults wait to see if a child has serious injuries?

(Well, actually, they do exactly that. )

I also don't think you should assume that the children in question are in a less bad situation than yours. Remember, CPS has already investigated the family and put the children with their grandmother for two months. So that means that CPS thought the situation was very bad. Anyway, even the OP can't completely know what is going on in the house. That's why she is in this quandary.

It really sucks that we can't just call someone in authority and count on them to do something for a child in trouble that is actually beneficial to the child. It's scary that we have to do this kind of mental gymnastics, worrying about foster care.

[CarrieMF]

They are having their first homebirth...

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[Pynki]

On any given day at least one of our bathrooms will have poop smeared on the walls.. Why?? Because ds 2 (4) has a hard time wiping is own bottom, and refuses help.. He doesn't tell me when he's pooping, and does it in the hardly ever used upstairs bathroom.. So unless it's midnight and I'm going to bed.. I don't see it.. And my mind being what it is.. I don't remember in the morning.. Also.. At 4.. He is responsible for clearing it off.. I give him the sponge.. He can do it.. And he does..

So.. Call CPS and have my kids taken from me..

Dyan

[Greaseball]

I think your situation is different and you know it, and your post was just meant to be snarky.

That said...I grew up in 4th degree squalor. Yep...human poop and pee in most rooms of the house that sat for weeks. You can bet I didn't have friends coming over. My mom would sit and whine about how we needed a housekeeper, but wouldn't just do it herself. I really doubt some minimum-wage housekeeper is going to clean poop that has been in a closet for a week.

My mother was mentally ill and needed a whole team of caseworkers, but no one wanted to call and be the "bad guy."

[KellyB]

That said...I grew up in 4th degree squalor. Yep...human poop and pee in most rooms of the house that sat for weeks. You can bet I didn't have friends coming over. My mom would sit and whine about how we needed a housekeeper, but wouldn't just do it herself. I really doubt some minimum-wage housekeeper is going to clean poop that has been in a closet for a week.

But what if you'd had a regular weekly or twice a week housekeeper for maintainance?
Do you think that the 4th degree squalor might have "fed" the mental illness, and visa versa?
BTW, thanks for the kind words, captain optimism...

[Pynki]

Greaseball.. I was NOT trying to be snarky..

My house is often times a pit.. I am a messy person.. I don't have the skills necessary to keep a "tidy" house.. EVERYONE in my family knows this.. There are whole WEEKS with poop on the bathroom wall upstairs.. Because with all the crap I do it gets pushed to the back until midnight when I get up to go pee.. And when I get pregnant it goes down hill. Because I too have a dh who is worthless around the house and doesn't think it's his "job" to do anything..

There have been times when the boys have slept on mattresses on the floor.. They had their frames taken away for jumping on their beds.. And no sheets because they've taken them off for the 15th time that day..

My IL's have threatened us with CPS for my messy house.. But my children are always well fed. And dressed in clean clothes.. And they are happy.. So on a bad day.. OMG.. Don't stop over..

But thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.. How lucky am I that I have friends who know I am a good mother even if I am an AWFUL house keeper..

[Greaseball]

When a post ends with something of a "dare" to go ahead and call CPS, to me that sounds snarky. Perhaps that's not really what you meant to sound like.

Lots of kids smear poop on the walls when they are potty training. Episodes of poop-smearing in a house that is otherwise sanitary and clean, IMO, are not a concern. If there is poop-smearing in addition to a little trail in the living room through the piles of trash, then it's more of a problem.

It's true that a messy house can feed depression. I sure don't feel good about myself when I wake up to a sink and counter full of dirty dishes and a bunch of ants. It probably would help if I had a housekeeper, but I can't afford one so it's my responsibility to clean. No matter how I'm feeling, there is a minimum amount of cleaning that absolutely has to be done.

[captain crunchy]

There are whole WEEKS with poop on the bathroom wall upstairs..

I am certainly no Martha Stewart by anoyone's definition, but that would not be acceptable at all in my home. I am not trying to be snarky, I just feel there is a vast difference between things like not vacuming for a while or dishes in the sink or things of that nature, and poop sitting for weeks in a bathroom.

I agree with this:

Lots of kids smear poop on the walls when they are potty training. Episodes of poop-smearing in a house that is otherwise sanitary and clean, IMO, are not a concern. If there is poop-smearing in addition to a little trail in the living room through the piles of trash, then it's more of a problem.

As to the topic at hand though:
I believe the original person who posted needs to do something. I have read all the threads and it has been troubling to see the difference in the original poster's comments from "trash everywhere, poop on walls, children's illness not taken care of etc"...to the recent post of:

"it is because the kids can do whatever they want and they are sneaky etc" I am paraphrasing but it seems like the blame has suddenly shifted to the children which is wrong in my opinion.

I don't know these people personally, and while I would be reluctant to call CPS on anyone due to how I know the system is and so forth...another part of me feels if the situation is dire enough to elicit 80 responses from strangers, most of which are urging you to take the children's best interest at heart and do something, then that says something to me.

Please don't get me wrong, as I said, I am no Flylady by ANY means, and we are not well off in any respect, but there is a certain level of cleanliness humans (and animals) naturally like to live in (like most cats naturally seek a litter box for example, dogs don't sleep in their own crap etc) ...and to me, it does indicate a SERIOUS problem when people have complete and utter blatant disregard for even the very BASIC of sanitary conditions or of their children's health.

Take it for what it is worth.