Neglect?? - Page 5

[party_of_seven]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

As to the topic at hand though:
I believe the original person who posted needs to do something. I have read all the threads and it has been troubling to see the difference in the original poster's comments from "trash everywhere, poop on walls, children's illness not taken care of etc"...to the recent post of:

"it is because the kids can do whatever they want and they are sneaky etc" I am paraphrasing but it seems like the blame has suddenly shifted to the children which is wrong in my opinion.

I don't know these people personally, and while I would be reluctant to call CPS on anyone due to how I know the system is and so forth...another part of me feels if the situation is dire enough to elicit 80 responses from strangers, most of which are urging you to take the children's best interest at heart and do something, then that says something to me.

Please don't get me wrong, as I said, I am no Flylady by ANY means, and we are not well off in any respect, but there is a certain level of cleanliness humans (and animals) naturally like to live in (like most cats naturally seek a litter box for example, dogs don't sleep in their own crap etc) ...and to me, it does indicate a SERIOUS problem when people have complete and utter blatant disregard for even the very BASIC of sanitary conditions or of their children's health.

Take it for what it is worth.

I was just pointing out that the reason that the house is so bad is because the children have been left to fend for themselves. There has never been any order established in that home. Its like martial law. The kids are fed and clothed, but other than that they have free reign. THAT is not the children's fault....its just more evidence of their neglectful parenting and failing to give the children any guidance. I am by no means blaming the children. Please don't take what I said out of context.

As for acting in this situation, where did I ever say that I wasn't going to do anything??? I am! Dh and I are working with the family to help them get things cleaned up and get things under control. They just go back from vacation, and I don't think that our "help" would be kindly reveived if we jumped right down their throats the second they arrived. Dh and I plan to have a good talk with them very soon, and I will be going over for several hours a day for a while to help get things cleaned up.

If my attempts fail, then I will certainly call CPS....I already said that. My concern here is for the children.

[Seeking Refuge]

Originally Posted by Greaseball

It's true that a messy house can feed depression. I sure don't feel good about myself when I wake up to a sink and counter full of dirty dishes and a bunch of ants.

Greaseball I am not taking issue with you so please don't take this as such. I just wanted to grumble for a moment about the type of society that leads to any woman making a statement such as this one. Why is it that we identify so much with our domestic roles that they become all wrapped up with our self worth. I for one am a busy woman, I am a college student, a mother of four and I have two girl scout troops. I do not feel bad about myself if I don't get my dishes done the night before. Do I like the mess? No but do I let it make me feel bad about myself. I have a pin on my jacket that says "a clean house is the sign of a wasted life"

To the OP, monitor the situation and if it doesn't improve you really need to help those kids. And for the record no midwife worth their salt will deliver in filth.

[captain crunchy]

Dh and I plan to have a good talk with them very soon, and I will be going over for several hours a day for a while to help get things cleaned up.

While I do find that admirable and I wasn't trying to attack you at all, I suppose my feeling on the issue is, if their children were already taken away for MONTHS and they had the government (cps) all in their business and how scary that must be to think your children might be taken away for GOOD...and that STILL doesn't change you or scare you straight or whatever--it indicates a huge problem...and I feel that a "nice long talk" and you cleaning up their mess for them won't do a bit of help either---it will be the exact same in a matter of time.

I don't know what the answer is, but I know that no child should live how you described and I hope there is some resolution.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by mom2radata

Why is it that we identify so much with our domestic roles that they become all wrapped up with our self worth.

I don't feel good either when my house is a mess. Not because it has anything to do with my self worth, but because I don't like being in a mess. It has nothing to do with gender roles and domesticity and everything to do with feeling more collected in an orderly environment. It's personality, not gender role. At least for me.

Namaste!

[Greaseball]

Mess is emotionally draining, while a clean house enhances the mood. When the house is clean, I wake up eariler, I feel more energetic and optimistic, and am more patient with everyone else. It's the exact opposite if the house is dirty. But maybe it is usually women who are affected this way.

[Seeking Refuge]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

I don't feel good either when my house is a mess. Not because it has anything to do with my self worth, but because I don't like being in a mess. It has nothing to do with gender roles and domesticity and everything to do with feeling more collected in an orderly environment. It's personality, not gender role. At least for me.

Namaste!

There is a difference between not liking mess and "not feeling good about yourself". I hate mess, it makes me crazy and cranky and what not but I recognize it as a by-product of a busy productive family and not some personal failure on my part as a human being.

[captain crunchy]

Maybe we are just getting stuck on semantics. I can only speak personally. It doesn't reflect on my worth as a person if my house is messy, but I do feel better when it is clean, only because I feel a sense of accomplishment, I feel like it is one less task to do, I feel generally happier because things are how I like them (the bit of control freak in me lol)...and things of that nature.

To me, it has nothing to do with gender roles or domesticity or the like either. Even before I was ever married or anything, when I was little and I got my first room---after having shared with my sister for so long, I was weird about keeping it clean (well until my teen years!)...it just makes me feel more relaxed when there is a sense of order.

Again, I am NO *flylady* or anything, I don't wear shoes inside and I can't see my friggin face in the sink...but I sigh and feel like *ahhhhhgghhh* at the sight of dishes piled up everywhere...know what I mean?

I think there is a happy medium in most things. I think similar thoughts about people with disgustingly clean you could eat a meal off their bathroom floor at any given time day or night houses...as I do about people who live in squalor... that something is a bit off...

[Subhuti]

UTI's worrisome

To return the original post, what stood out for me was numerous untreated UTI's of the DD. Party of Six, has anyone considered the source of the UTI's?

A family member of mine was sexually abused as a child, and so I have done a lot of reading on childhood sexual abuse. One of the red flags is frequent UTI's. Could there be more going on in the house than you suspect? I am not suggesting that the parents are abusing the children necessarily, but the question should be asked given the UTI's. Does someone else has access to the (frequently unsupervised) DD.

Sometimes unsupervised children with dysfunctional parents do things to each other. Siblings sexually abuse each other.

Perhaps I am overly sensitive to the possibility of sexual abuse but please keep it in mind.

I really feel for you in the decisions you have to make right now. I agree that preserving your relationship with the family is crucial, for the future well being of the children.

Another suggestion: does the family have enough money that a live in housekeeper / daily housekeeper could be hired? Perhaps a cleaning service (or you) could get it into shape, and then someone could be hired. Then it would never get so bad again. Can you propose this ? Its expensive, but look at the stakes here.

Best of luck. Please keep us posted.

[party_of_seven]

Originally Posted by CatskillMtnMama

To return the original post, what stood out for me was numerous untreated UTI's of the DD. Party of Six, has anyone considered the source of the UTI's?

A family member of mine was sexually abused as a child, and so I have done a lot of reading on childhood sexual abuse. One of the red flags is frequent UTI's. Could there be more going on in the house than you suspect? I am not suggesting that the parents are abusing the children necessarily, but the question should be asked given the UTI's. Does someone else has access to the (frequently unsupervised) DD.

Sometimes unsupervised children with dysfunctional parents do things to each other. Siblings sexually abuse each other.

Perhaps I am overly sensitive to the possibility of sexual abuse but please keep it in mind.

I really feel for you in the decisions you have to make right now. I agree that preserving your relationship with the family is crucial, for the future well being of the children.

Another suggestion: does the family have enough money that a live in housekeeper / daily housekeeper could be hired? Perhaps a cleaning service (or you) could get it into shape, and then someone could be hired. Then it would never get so bad again. Can you propose this ? Its expensive, but look at the stakes here.

Best of luck. Please keep us posted.

I don't think that the UTI's are because of sexual abuse. I think that its more likely poor hygine, or just the way her urinary tract is formed that makes her more suceptable. These kids were molested, but that was years after the daughter started developing UTIs. I think that they went untreated because they thought she was just a normal kid who was always wetting her pants and the bed at night.

Ther aren't any adults that have unsupervised access to the children. They go to school, and come home. They are alone for a few hours a couple of times a week. I know that the parents aren't doing anything to the kids....I know them well, and I know that they wouldn't do that kind of thing.

Besides all of that, there is nothing else that sends up a red flag. I honestly don't think that there is any sexual abuse going on now.


I had a wonderful talk with BIL yesterday. I had gone by to pick up my niece to take her to a church activity. I went early, specifically, so that I could talk with him. I told him about my cncerns. I told him that I was worried that of CPS came back to check up on them that they would see that. I told him that its not right to let kids live like that. I told him that dh and I want to help. He accepted my offer to help. He was practically in tears. He is still really depressed, and I'm sure that SIL is as well(she is just really quiet about it)

He plans to start painting this weekend. After I get things under control, I plan to offer to come in weekly and get things caught up for them. I'm sure BIL will pay me. I honestly don't mind.

These people are human beings. They really do love their kids. They may not know how to be perfect parents, but they are trying to do what they think it right. They are not horrible monsters that lock their kids in the closet and feed them only bread and water. Their kids are happy, fed, and clothed. My niece was telling me about how much fun they had together on vacation. She told me how she is just like her dad...he is her best friend.

These parents are just stuck in a rut and overwhelmed. They are paying the price of not guiding their children more directly from an early age. They are lazy. I'm sure that depression plays a huge part in all of this as well.

Of course my first concern is the children. I want them to be happy, but they are happy now. They may be living in filth, but you can fix that. If I can't, I will find someone who can.

[zipperump-a-zoomum]

Originally Posted by party_of_six

These people are human beings. They really do love their kids. They may not know how to be perfect parents, but they are trying to do what they think it right.

I teared up when I read this. Good luck helping this family- I really hope you guys can make a difference for them. If you think they are up for it, you might want to investigate the local Family Support Center. Most centers have different parenting classes, and a lot of access to resources to help parents.

I'm thinking of you and this family.
Kaly

[Nature]

Originally Posted by party_of_six

Of course my first concern is the children. I want them to be happy, but they are happy now. They may be living in filth, but you can fix that. If I can't, I will find someone who can.

I just wanted to tell you that I think you're doing a wonderful thing for these parents. They are lucky to have you! I hope things continue to improve with them, and that you're able to help this family and those children.

Let us know how it goes!

[Foobar]

Party of six-\

I think you are doing the right thing. The parents need help, but CPS may not be the way to go right now.


hugs to you as you work through this.

[KellyB]

It does sound like you're doing the right thing.
Once again, I want to suggest that after the big cleanup they get some hired help once or twice a week with the house.
I think it could help a LOT. For the kids, for the depression...

[urklemama]

They are so lucky to have you.

[muldey]

Party of six,
You are doing a wonderful thing for this family.IMO,CPS would make the situation much worse.I hope you can help them get everything under control.I'm sure my home is 1st degree squalor(how I would love some help,but not finacially possible for us),but we're working on it.Freecycle is a wonderful thing,I have given away a ton of unneeded items and it has really kept the clutter down.If someone called CPS on us(BTDT for a completely different reason),it would be absolutely devastating for the children and for us.Since this family has also been there,I'm wondering if some of their depression is due to that.I know mine is,and it's been almost 4 years.Dealing with CPS is absolute HELL.

Please keep us updated.