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heated argument with a friend  

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
who doesn't have kids and isn't planning to have them anytime soon, but plans to breastfeed when she does have them.

I said I thought an appropriate/funny formula ad would be, "If you choose not to breastfeed, we'll prevent your baby from dying of starvation for only $3,000 a year."

She said that was a horrible thing to say and I was making people with legitimate reasons not to breastfeed feel like horrible people. She was really, really offended.

I said I meant nothing of the sort, formula is THERE to prevent starvation for babies who can't breastfeed, and if a mother can't breastfeed, then obviously she HAS to use formula and there's nothing to feel guilty about. There's nothing wrong with using formula if that's what you have to do. But I don't like formula companies marketing to people as though their products are so great.

My friend said formula companies are businesses and are there to make money, there's nothing wrong with that, and they DO say "breast is best" or something similar on all their ads.

I said they only do that because they're required by law to do so, they are directly responsible for the deaths of babies in other parts of the world, and at any rate I think it's unethical to make money off of something that causes health problems, and I think businesses have ethical responsibilities.

She disagreed, and I was afraid we were going to have a fight--I really hadn't meant to offend her, but at the same time, I stand by what I think. It's the same reason I don't shop at Wal-Mart. I don't have anything against mothers who formula feed, but I do think everyone deserves to know the truth about the issue, and not have it masked by advertising. Where did I go wrong?
post #2 of 18
Maybe it's that old saying they say about writing a paper...show, don't just tell.

Maybe if you directed her to a good book like Milk, Money and Madness or a bf advocacy site like InFact Canada.

Or you could look at old threads on this forum about ads etc. that talk about all the legitimate health organizations like the World Health organization denouncing formula ads/samples/coupons.

But maybe she wouldn't be interested.

I read a great analogy...some LC wrote it??? That formula is like artificial limbs. Of course they are needed by some people. But the way the formula companies act it's as if they are trying to bully people into cutting off healthy limbs just to sell more product.
post #3 of 18
This is a really tough issue and remember she hasn't had as much education in this area as you have. I don't know how to attack the formula industry without attacking moms. You can't talk about babies and families without it feeling really personal. The media and the marketplace are not acting in the best interests of babies, they are acting in the best interests of the almighty dollar. But attacking them ends up attacking the people who haven't questioned the messages they are being fed. This reminds me of when I first identified myself as a feminist- lots of people defended men. I wasn't against men, I just wanted a better place for women. Now we are fighting for a better world for babies, not more guilt for moms.
post #4 of 18
In my opinion this article shows just how lovely and caring formula companies are:

http://business.bostonherald.com/bus...rticleid=72326

Quote:
Nestle chief rejects the need to `give back' to communities
By Jennifer Heldt Powell
Wednesday, March 9, 2005

Companies shouldn't feel obligated to ``give back'' to the community, because they haven't taken anything away, the Austrian-born chief of the world's largest food company told local executives yesterday.
post #5 of 18
ugh, I never know how to deal with friends. None of mine are quite on the same page with me. I have 1 who is close, but even still she's VERY opinionated in the ways we differ. You know what? I can't do anything about it if my friends insist on being ignorant about these topics. And they do insist so strongly. That's why I hang out here so much! I've had people try and convince me that disposables aren't that much more expensive than cloth and that formula is a good thing. Hey, if that's what they want to believe and they want to throw their money away on it, I can't stop them. I do let them know how happy we are with the choices we've made, but, having been lectured to on these subjects, I realize how unkind it is to tell a mama how to raise her child if she's totally convinced of something. Your friend is NOT currently a mama, so really, what does she know about feeding babies?
post #6 of 18
It's not that I can't understand your point of view, because I have plenty of issues with formula companies and how they have undermined breastfeeding in our country and around the world.

But you must be able to see what an inflammatory comment you made. It was pretty harsh.

Since your friend plans to breastfeed her future children, it sounds as though there would have been no argument if you had a simple discussion about the benefits of breastfeeding and the not-so-ethical practices of formula companies. I think it was the harshness of the comment that got her upset. Honestly, I am a very pro-breastfeeding mom myself, but your comment made me cringe. It made it sound as though bottlefed babies are hovering on the brink of death or something. All the babies I've ever known have been happy and well cared for, breastfed or otherwise.

I'm sorry if I sound really judgmental - I'm not trying to be, but you did ask where you went wrong.
post #7 of 18

breastfeeding rules...but won't cure world's ills

i lactated a total of ten years with three children. the formula companies made precious little money off me and i wouldn't change a thing about how i fed my babies. however, i think it's important not to get to the point where we believe breastfeeding is a cure all for all societies ills. breastfeeding was the way throughout most of human history and yet there were wars and killing and stealing. one of our most infamous murderers was an uncircumcised, extended breastfed vegetarian: hitler.

my husband committed suicide three years ago. my beautiful breastfed oldest child who was breastfed for 3 years and unschooled her whole life has had 4 attempts herself in the last year. she's addicted to alcohol and drugs. all of my good intentions could not prevent her from having to experience this pain and struggle. we do the best we can, but making enemies doesn't help. i feel very humbled by my experience, and while i'm no fan of big corporations feeding us propaganda to believe their way of feeding babies is better, i know my way isn't going to prevent sorrow and suffering. if anything, many people i know blame my parenting style and choices for the downfall of my child and our family.

nilla
post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaMom
I'm sorry if I sound really judgmental - I'm not trying to be, but you did ask where you went wrong.
No need to be sorry--I agree with you that I was being inflammatory. I'm just not sure how to NOT be inflammatory. I'm also not sure how to apologize for being inflammatory without apologizing for my opinions.
post #9 of 18
It is so hard when you have a friend who hasn't had a baby and trying to make them understand issues like this. I have a friend who just does not understand why we struggled with breastfeeding when we could have just given Riley formula....and she really does not get that I am still nursing Riley...especially now since I am 25 weeks pregnant and have no milk left.....explaining how good colostrum is doesn't help.
post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juliacat
No need to be sorry--I agree with you that I was being inflammatory. I'm just not sure how to NOT be inflammatory. I'm also not sure how to apologize for being inflammatory without apologizing for my opinions.
Oh, that's not hard! Just be honest. Tell her that you are sorry that your comment upset her, and that you realize it sounded harsh, and that you could have found another way of saying the same thing. Tell her some of the things you have learned about formula companies that upset you, and explain why you feel the way you do. Agree that perhaps it isn't a topic you should discuss together, but you respect her right to her own opinion. Good friends are able to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
post #11 of 18
Thread Starter 
If I could be an activist on this issue without ever once offending or hurting the feelings of a formula-feeding mother, I would. All we can ask of parents is that they do the best they can, and ninety-nine times out of one hundred, they are. I don't want anyone to feel bad or guilty. I just want to point out, dramatically if necessary, my opinion that formula company ads are both ridiculous and morally wrong.

By the way, I've never had a baby and I know a lot about this issue, so I don't really buy the "never had a baby" or "doesn't have kids" excuses.
post #12 of 18
Hey, congrats on your pregnancy! I didn't read your sig so I didn't know you didn't have a child yet.

Can I just say this - having an actual child sometimes is a reality check. There are a lot of things I felt very strongly about before I had a child and I wound up eating my words. I've definitely done some things I thought I would never do - some good and some not so good according to the "AP" philosophy. Things such as breastfeeding and slinging and co-sleeping and organic food are all wonderful things to believe in, but not every family finds that the same things work for them. Children themselves teach you about the REALLY important things, and I think (as I sort of said in my first reply to this thread) that people can make a variety of choices and be loving, respectful parents.

I'm sure you'll be a great mom!
post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 
I think living life sometimes is a reality check. I can't begin to list the number of things I felt strongly about three years ago where I know I would eat my words if I tried to stand by them today. I know tons of kids who aren't APed yet are happy, healthy and well cared for. I try really hard not to be a parenting zealot because I KNOW the reality is different from outside looking in. But I will, if necessary, bend over backwards and do a hula dance if that's what it takes to breastfeed this one! Thanks for the congratulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaMom
Hey, congrats on your pregnancy! I didn't read your sig so I didn't know you didn't have a child yet.

Can I just say this - having an actual child sometimes is a reality check. There are a lot of things I felt very strongly about before I had a child and I wound up eating my words. I've definitely done some things I thought I would never do - some good and some not so good according to the "AP" philosophy. Things such as breastfeeding and slinging and co-sleeping and organic food are all wonderful things to believe in, but not every family finds that the same things work for them. Children themselves teach you about the REALLY important things, and I think (as I sort of said in my first reply to this thread) that people can make a variety of choices and be loving, respectful parents.

I'm sure you'll be a great mom!
post #14 of 18
I too think that it's completely unethical that a companies make money selling a product they are fully aware has negative health effects on babies... and even more outrageous that the general public thinks it's ok and buys their stuff up like it's chocolate.

Perhaps you made it difficult for her to examine the ethical side of the companies' actions when you evoked such a strong response... she probably stopped thinking critically about the issue at that point and was responding more emotionally to the starving babies imagery... not that I think what you said was inaccurate necessarily, but that it might have cut short a productive conversation. Easy for me to say hearing it all second hand...:P Honestly, it sounds like something I might say sarcastically to a friend I felt was on the same page and would get what I was saying. But there aren't too many people I could say that to and NOT get into a heated argument. Maybe a couple MDC mamas.;D
post #15 of 18
LunaMom has some good points. I would have thought you were a little nutty before I had kids :LOL Just tell her books like Milk Money and Madness really opened your eyes and made you feel passionate.

Here is a good link about the book:

http://members.aol.com/diamichels/mmmpr.htm
post #16 of 18
i can't speak for your friend, but i know before i had dd, i had some pretty whacked out views on breastfeeding, and child-rearing in general. it's hard to be friends with someone who doesnt have kids sometimes. especially when subjects like parenting and bfing come up. if you value your friendship with her, i would just not discuss it too much. lead by example, breastfeed your child, parent her gently, and let your friend watch and learn
post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 
Again, I don't have kids either, though we do have a mutual friend who ebfs and parents gently and the whole works, and both of us have learned a lot from watching her.

I think my friend (the one who doesn't have kids) and I have a lot more in common when it comes to our views on parenting than we do when it comes to our views on business ethics!
post #18 of 18
Thread Starter 
I e-mailed my friend and she wrote back saying she isn't mad at me, so I think I'll give her some of the information I got from y'all in this thread. Yay! Thank you!
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