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post #81 of 272
Um... from the OP, do we (or for the matter, the OP herself) know that the Aunt wasn't STAYING with the woman in question? I know that for the first couple of weeks that I had a newborn I had someone staying with us to help out. For me, it was my mom, but maybe for this woman it is her sister? I can see lots of ways that the woman's remark could have been misinterpreted (evening vs. overnight) and assumptions made without knowing any of the actual facts.
post #82 of 272
Yes give the new mother some slack unless you know her personal background history. I have only left my children with family members however I have watched other peoples children. Some people are good with children some are not. Apperently she felt the aunt was good enough to watch her precious child. The remark "our first" obviously shows she is very proud. She may have not known about the home study being family friendly or she may have been very concerned about her child picking up some kind of virus from another child. Most first time mothers worry about this a lot. She may have been told that having the baby out at night in the night air could cause colic. Again another myth that many first time mothers worry about. There are MANY things that she could have been worried about. Perhaps she was/is not coping too well after the birth of her first child and is dealing with a lot of unexpected stress and or baby blues and needed a few hours by herself w/other grow ups. One can not judge ones parenting instints from one "I would never do that" moment. We all have done an oops here or there no one is perfect. A person should be seen by a comulation of thier actions. Try calling her and asking how she is doing. See if she would like to meet at the park or for dessert. See if she needs any help. Take over a covered dish that could be frozen for latter use. (that was the best thing ANYONE ever did for me) Perhaps she would like someone who has been there and done that so she can learn the ropes of mother hood. I think in today's society there are too many women who are left to thier own devices as far as the parenting road is concerned. You used to have extended family who knew all sorts of stuff about babies now women are lucky if they have one or two relatives that are close by and or care enough to take the time with them. Being a woman is like opening a door to a new world and becoming a mother is like joining a sisterhood. I say embrace her and welcome her with open arms. We all have something we can impart and something we need to learn.
post #83 of 272
Don't even get me started on the "well if it's overnight, the baby must be on Formula" comment

I think the OP had a responsibility to keep her opinions and judgemental expressions to herself and not judge this new mother.

If the OP is not privy to information in the new mommy's household, then it really is not in her place to draw judgemental conclusions.

It is threads like this that keep women in bondage of Post Partum Depression.
post #84 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamawanabe
There are at least two AP schools on MDC. One holds that AP is the best parenting philosophy; that all children and families would be better and happier if ap was practiced. Not Aping is associated with selfishness and ignorance (and basically a lack of love for the children).

OK, you can see from my biased description that I am of another school. The one that says that AP is a good choice for some families (and yes, more info does need to be out there so families who don't know about AP can choose to do it if it is a good fit for the parents'/childrens' temperments). But mainstream parents can and do have happy, attached children. The baby who spent the night with a loving aunt when s/he was two weeks old is as loved as the OP's baby and has just as much of a chance of having a happy childhood as the OP's baby.
Don't forget the third school of thought (voiced pretty clearly by some on this thread): those who appear to promote “attachment parenting” when what they REALLY mean is “attachment mothering.”
post #85 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee
Don't forget the third school of thought (voiced pretty clearly by some on this thread): those who appear to promote “attachment parenting” when what they REALLY mean is “attachment mothering.”
What does attachment mothering mean?
post #86 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee
Don't forget the third school of thought (voiced pretty clearly by some on this thread): those who appear to promote “attachment parenting” when what they REALLY mean is “attachment mothering.”
Also wanting some clarifiation as to what "attachment mothering" means and what the accompanying eye roll means. If by "attachment mothering" you are refering to the belief that the mother is the prefered care giver in the first weeks and months and early years of life, then I am not surprised that many people on this forum fit this. In Peggy O'mara's latest editorial she addresses this.

From Mothering Issue 129 A Quiet Place: Mothers and Fathers by Peggy O'mara

"Most couples also aspire to the equal sharing of parenting tasks. Some mothers even go so far as to bottle-feed so that their husbands, too, can feed the baby. Others work out complicated nighttime arrangements to take turns being up in the night with the baby. However, something happens when the new baby comes that throws a monkey wrench into the whole equality thing: The baby prefers the mother.

Blasphemous as it may seem to say so, there is a biological imperative that bumps up uncomfortably against our strivings for gender equality. Breastfeeding, essential to a baby's optimum health, necessitates exclusivity between baby and mother during the early months. This can contribute to a dad feeling left out and unsure of his own role, and to a mom feeling overwhelmed.

In traditional societies, the new mother-baby dyad was protected by other women, grandmothers, and midwives. The protection was ritualized into a seclusion period of 30 to 40 days following the birth, during which the new mother and child rested, got to know each other, and established the milk supply. During this early time of adjustment the mother was fed and taught by the experienced mothers, and the nursing couple was kept warm and protected from outside stimulation and infection. This seclusion period was essential to the survival of the new baby and mother."

"While it is a biological imperative that makes the mother and baby prefer one another during the early months, that preference is also related to how much time they spend together. Those dads who are around the baby a lot, engage more with the baby, and are willing to be responsive to the needs of mother and baby, develop closer relationships with their children sooner, and perhaps more reliably.

After the first few months, when the breastfeeding relationship is fully established and becomes routine, the baby reaches out for the father and then for the siblings, and begins to relate more to them. This delay in attachment can be hard on dad, especially if he is proud of being an enlightened man. Once he accepts the fact that the baby needs mom more in the early months, his role becomes more obvious. His job is to take care of the mother. If the most important thing in our life is family, then family has to come first. We must value ourselves not according to cultural stereotypes, but by how valuable we are to our family. In the early years of parenting, this means putting the needs of the mother first because she is putting the needs of the baby first. This means self-sacrifice for mother and father, but sacrifice builds character and personal capacity. The baby's needs are most urgent in the early years, when those needs require constant physical contact. A healthy family will respond to those needs unselfishly, not reluctantly or grudgingly."

"The irony of the early months and years of parenting is that a shift occurs. While mothers bond with their children through nurturing, fathers bond through play. Once the attachment period is past and the child's survival is assured, it's all about dad. Dad is the gateway to the larger world.

Fathers must follow the lead of their wives in the early years, trusting her instinctual intelligence and her mother's wisdom. It is real. And, during those vulnerable early years, they must protect their wives and children. This is as it has always been in the animal kingdom.

Mothers must take responsibility for their own emotions, ask for help when they need it, and not blame their husbands when things go wrong. Sometimes things just fall apart."
post #87 of 272
No, I'm with Kadee on this one (and a bit suspect of the biological imperative stuff; wet nurses are common in tribal situations so it isn't always a mom-baby dyiad - not that tribal cultures are any more "natural" and thus right or any less driven by cultural norms than western society). There have been a lot of threads on this topic and many mamas feel like their partners (and even grandparents or aunts) can be attached caregivers to thier babies even in the first weeks and months of life. Breastfeeding is the only thing they can't do, and we can pump.
post #88 of 272
wow, OT but that editorial is enough to make me not ever subscribe to Mothering. Very limited ideas of what the roles in an ap family can and should look like . . .
post #89 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmer mama
Also wanting some clarifiation as to what "attachment mothering" means and what the accompanying eye roll means. If by "attachment mothering" you are refering to the belief that the mother is the prefered care giver in the first weeks and months and early years of life, then I am not surprised that many people on this forum fit this. In Peggy O'mara's latest editorial she addresses this.
Oh--I thought it was pretty clear. To me, attachment mothering is what's advocated when people talk about attachment parenting, but seem to ascribe most of the necessary work to the mother. This has happened in this thread, as well as in much of Sears writing, etc. The eyeroll is there because I find it a frustrating attitude. I believe in the power of fathers (and other loving adults) to help children form healthy attachments. I believe that much of the work of attachment parenting can, in fact, be done by either (or both) parents. But others disagree.

I have no doubt that a fair number of MDC members have this essentialist view--much of our society does. But that doesn't mean its the only way to conceptualize--or practice!--attachment parenting.
post #90 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee
Oh--I thought it was pretty clear. To me, attachment mothering is what's advocated when people talk about attachment parenting, but seem to ascribe most of the necessary work to the mother. This has happened in this thread, as well as in much of Sears writing, etc. The eyeroll is there because I find it a frustrating attitude. I believe in the power of fathers (and other loving adults) to help children form healthy attachments. I believe that much of the work of attachment parenting can, in fact, be done by either (or both) parents. But others disagree.

I have no doubt that a fair number of MDC members have this essentialist view--much of our society does. But that doesn't mean its the only way to conceptualize--or practice!--attachment parenting.
very well said
post #91 of 272
I'm totally with kaydee.

I'm also irritated at the OP of this thread for being so judgemental and unsupportive of a new mother. The fact that all of this took place at a Bible study is just hilarious to me. I'm sure that in that situation, Jesus would have run home and told a bunch of strangers about how awful that woman was.

When we have a babysitter, I say that my kids are with them "for the night" even if I just mean a few hours. I also left each of my kids around three weeks or so, right before my mom ended her visit after their births, so that my husband and I could go out together. I'm not a bad mother because of that. I'm not uninformed. I'm not anti-attachment parenting because of that. What frustrates me is how horribly unsupportive our society is of new mothers, of mothers altogether, and this thread is such a great example of that.

If I said what I thought of that editorial I'd probably get banned. I'm confused as to what she meant by "traditional societies". Traditional in what culture? Where? Who are these "nobel savages" I keep reading about? That editorial is essentializing motherhood at best and downright racist at worst. I don't think that is what attachment parenting is about at ALL.
post #92 of 272
Okay, I can understand what you are saying. I wasn't really trying to make any point other than the fact that many MDC users are Mothering readers, that MDC is an extension of Mothering's and Peggy's philosophies, so it isn't surprising that many would take the position that the early months are mom-and-baby centered. If that makes any sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamawanabe
wow, OT but that editorial is enough to make me not ever subscribe to Mothering. Very limited ideas of what the roles in an ap family can and should look like . . .
Just to be fair mamawanabe, I only took out paragraphs illustrating ideas to support the idea of "attachment mothering". The editorial is much longer and does address gender equality and the father's role. The full article is on the Mothering website. I would hate to have someone form an opinion based solely on what I plucked out as relevant to the conversation.
post #93 of 272
Quote:
Okay, I can understand what you are saying. I wasn't really trying to make any point other than the fact that many MDC users are Mothering readers, that MDC is an extension of Mothering's and Peggy's philosophies, so it isn't surprising that many would take the position that the early months are mom-and-baby centered. If that makes any sense.
Does taking that view include trashing those who do not, or share a variation of that view? Because I actually believe that the mother is the most important figure in an child's life beyond infancy, but that doesn't mean that I can't accept that others might disagree and can still be good parents even given that very basic difference in how we might view the mother's role. I don't get what is so AP or NFL about judging others so harshly or taking such a superior tone when speaking about others.
post #94 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
Does taking that view include trashing those who do not, or share a variation of that view? Because I actually believe that the mother is the most important figure in an child's life beyond infancy, but that doesn't mean that I can't accept that others might disagree and can still be good parents even given that very basic difference in how we might view the mother's role. I don't get what is so AP or NFL about judging others so harshly or taking such a superior tone when speaking about others.
I was trying to address the idea that there is something wrong with "attachment mothering", because the bulk of the work of parenting is what I do, because I do have the breasts and I am with my kids 24/7. I wasn't really trying to defend anyone's posts on this thread. I was just pointing out that I am not surprised that many moms here would be advocating not having separation from your newborn in the first weeks. Of course trashing other moms or judging harshly is out of line. Personally I would not leave a baby that young, and I would be surprised to see someone out that soon wiithout their baby. But that mom is free to make her own decisions about what is right for her family, and I would still support her as a mother. I think I am getting myself way outta my depth here...
post #95 of 272
I'm sorry, farmer mama, I totally didn't mean to attack you. I think we're probably pretty much on the same page, but it did come off like you were defending the right of the OP to attack another mother in the name of attachment parenting. I see now that you weren't trying to do that.

Attachment mothering is great if that is how you and your family choose to raise your children. However, the idea that in order to have children who are attached you must parent in this one very specific way and your family dynamic must fall neatly within these lines and if you don't then it is the mother's fault and she has no one else to blame is an idea that I take issue with. I don't take issue with people who do fall within those lines, just the idea that we must.
post #96 of 272
mamawanabe, please don't judge the magazine based solely on that editorial!!

fwiw ~ my daughter preferred my partner over me from about day 1. she does love nursing... but most of the time she just prefers her daddy. [eta ~ we joke about this being due to the fact that daddy saved her from falling in the toilet.] so i think that saying ALL children "instinctively" prefer the mother is silly... just like saying the mother should be the primary caregiver. IMO, as long as children have stable relationships with their primary caregivers & family members, they can be perfectly attached and emotionally healthy.

when my son was just over a month old, i left him for a weekend with my partner so i could attend my brother's wedding. he was fine, they bonded well, and i don't regret it at all. (oops, i better surrender my AP badge...)

when my daughter was also about that age, i began leaving her w/ my partner in the afternoons while i job-searched... then w/ him for whole days... like i've said, she already preffered him, so i think i'm really the only one who had to adjust a lot.
post #97 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStateMama
It sounds to me like the OP was fine to the woman and she and the other women at the group offered support and suggestions, gently showing some other options to the new mom. She came her to vent a bit about her personal feelings, she didn't harangue the poor beleagued newbie but she had a few emotions about it she wanted to just get out. It's not like she's stalking the maternity wards and pontificating on the ideals of AP. It seems like so frequently someone expresses a personal opinion here, in the relative AP "safety" of MDC and gets so slammed for being horrible and judgmental.


I saw it as a vent, too.

I remember babysitting a one week old baby when I was 16 yrs old. I was so scared - had no experience with very young babies. Yeah, it is different than leaving the baby with the aunt, but I honestly just can't imagine leaving my two week old baby with anyone else.

I am kind of laughing because people are judging the OP for judging - and now I am judging the people who are judging the OP for judging. Well, I don't mean to judge, but I guess I have my values and they differ than others - so I guess that is judging. I see it as ok that the OP vented here - at a site that leans toward AP. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree with her, but I do think it is fine that she feels sad that a two week old is away from her mother for a Bible Study. Those are her feelings.
post #98 of 272
No, making judgements on the OP as a person or a mother based on one statement would be judging. Speaking out against yet another person who feels as though they have the answers to all mothering problems is not judging.
post #99 of 272
Originally Posted by BlueStateMama
It sounds to me like the OP was fine to the woman and she and the other women at the group offered support and suggestions, gently showing some other options to the new mom. She came her to vent a bit about her personal feelings, she didn't harangue the poor beleagued newbie but she had a few emotions about it she wanted to just get out. It's not like she's stalking the maternity wards and pontificating on the ideals of AP. It seems like so frequently someone expresses a personal opinion here, in the relative AP "safety" of MDC and gets so slammed for being horrible and judgmental.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkmommy


I saw it as a vent, too.

I remember babysitting a one week old baby when I was 16 yrs old. I was so scared - had no experience with very young babies. Yeah, it is different than leaving the baby with the aunt, but I honestly just can't imagine leaving my two week old baby with anyone else.

I am kind of laughing because people are judging the OP for judging - and now I am judging the people who are judging the OP for judging. Well, I don't mean to judge, but I guess I have my values and they differ than others - so I guess that is judging. I see it as ok that the OP vented here - at a site that leans toward AP. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree with her, but I do think it is fine that she feels sad that a two week old is away from her mother for a Bible Study. Those are her feelings.
Thank you bluestatemama and pinkmommy. You both sum up my feelings quite nicely

Where is the OP anyway? Please do not be afraid to come back
post #100 of 272
So we've spent 100 posts getting our knickers in a twist when we don't even know what the evil mom in question meant by "for the night"?

Wow, don't we lead decadent lives!

Namaste!
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