My Dad spanked DS - Page 2

[LoveBeads]

I have to say this.

For someone who was hit by her own father and then had her own child hit by her father (I'm talking about the OP), I think it is amazing how respectful and gentle these suggestions have been.

I think your father has boundary issues - I think anyone who hits children (or any living creature for that matter) has boundary issues. I would lay down the boundaries extremely clearly, extremely concisely, and extremely firmly. I (personally) wouldn't pepper my discussion with "I love yous" and "this is how I do things" - I would cut to the chase and let him know how disgusted you are with his behavior toward YOU and toward your son. Maybe I should give advice that is more GD-ish but I am hurting for the OP and feeling angry on behalf of her and her little boy. The fact that you didn't even have a reaction when your father hit your child tells me that there are some deep seated feelings of fear that you have - if a stranger had hit your son I'm sure you would have had a very strong reaction.

I am so sorry for what you are going through - it's bad enough to have gotten hit when you were little but I can't imagine how I would feel if someone hit my child. I can't imagine it.

And writermama - your story really touched me. I think that the damage from hitting children is so significant and it is stories like yours which convince me all the more.

[peaceful herbivore]

I think your father has boundary issues - I think anyone who hits children (or any living creature for that matter) has boundary issues. I would lay down the boundaries extremely clearly, extremely concisely, and extremely firmly. I (personally) wouldn't pepper my discussion with "I love yous" and "this is how I do things" - I would cut to the chase and let him know how disgusted you are with his behavior toward YOU and toward your son. Maybe I should give advice that is more GD-ish but I am hurting for the OP and feeling angry on behalf of her and her little boy. The fact that you didn't even have a reaction when your father hit your child tells me that there are some deep seated feelings of fear that you have - if a stranger had hit your son I'm sure you would have had a very strong reaction.

That is how I feel, especially the part in bold. At the risk of assuming, which can be dangerous, I feel that maybe the poster does have some issues with her father due to the fact that she KNOWS where she stands on spanking and is still conflicted on what to do or say etc. Now, no one is suggesting your father is some kind of monster or anything at all, I am sure he DOES love you and your son, however, it is clear that he does have some control and entitlement issues. He felt completely entitled to hit your son and enough control over the situation to think you wouldn't do anything. To take the part I quoted a bit futher, this is clear also because I am sure your father would not THINK to touch a stranger's child anywhere, even if the child was behaving like a royal hellion...

I would skip the "I love you's" and things as well, but I realize that personality types are different, family dynamics are different, you can't be expected to act how any of us would act. I wouldn't be hostile either. I would just be VERY firm and truthful.

I saw you hit my son. Judging by what I saw, I derive that YOU think it is okay to do that. IT IS NOT OKAY. I will not tolerate my son being hit again, swatted, spanked, slapped, etc. I have to ask you to respect that, or unfortunately you will not be permitted to interact with him without close supervision.

Any response he may have other than an apology and a promise not to do it again is only going to be his projection of the world and of the situation placed on your shoulders. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW HE FEELS OR WHAT HE THINKS (in this situation). Honestly, if you "didn't tolerate" your son wearing any other color shirt than red, and he knew that, and put a blue shirt on him, he IS NOT RESPECTING you or your wishes, no matter how *ridiculous* that condition is. It is your right as a parent to feel that way, and to have others respect that. I am just giving an arbitrary an somewhat ridiculous example, but just to prove the point that he has no right to argue with you. You don't care to hear his reasons, and shouldn't have to, because no matter what they are, they will not change your view of spanking right?

Be strong mama, stand up for your son and for yourself.

[PJsmomma]

This happened to my son at Christmas too! My parents live all the way across the country and we were there for a too long of a visit.

My 4 yr old is highly energetic and Grandma and Grandpa are used to peace and quiet. My dad thinks I spoil my child because he doesnt' get spanked for everything he does "wrong". (we did--and yes we turned out just fine--but I do not agree with that "everything gets a spanking" philosophy)

I was taking a shower and while I stepped out I heard something going on but couldn't get dressed fast enough. My son wanted down and Grandpa wanted to hold him and my son kicked him (I don't condone kicking by the way but Grandpa has about 275 lbs on the baby! and he couldn't get away) and my dad pinched the tar out of my son's leg.

I was LIVID! My dad said "well a child ought not to kick an adult" well no but that wasnt' really the story.

I crawled in bed with my son and just held him--he was so heartbroken and kept sobbing "grandpa pinched me" in disbelief. That made me so sad! When he calmed down and fell asleep--it took over an hour for him to calm down. I told my father "don't you dare EVER discipline my son again--he is MY baby." I also threatened to stay in a hotel until my plane left.

My dad was angry at first but the rest of the visit he was very gentle and loving with my son and I think he realized that was wrong (of course we didn't talk about it again)

((hugs)) just letting you know I know how it feels.

[maraelise]

i just want to say that there's something incredibly disturbing about adults who aren't the parents (or are for that matter) getting angry enough with a small child to physically hurt them. i've seen this happen a number of times in different situations-- (e.g. the supermarket and playground).

it's very obvious to me that these sorts of people have a problem: they think they're establishing their power and/or authority over the child-- despite the obvious fact that they are bigger and (should) have years of experiental learning on those poor little ones-- to rationalize how their actions will effect the child. and yet a small child can enrage them to the point where they are willing to take it out on them physically??

that's sick and wrong and it infuriates me. i'm in total agreement, touch my kid and you're going to to have hell to pay.

ps... everyone on here is just fantastico!

[coopnwhitsmommy]

Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie

I realize spanking is spanking and is horrible in any sense...but what did your ds do that your father thought he should be spanked? Did he swat him once or did he all out spank him? How old is your ds? Does your father know your position on spanking? I would be sooooo over the line upset about this.
.

He kept getting up from his nap...he was tired and grumpy and wouldn't lay down. He came over to papa and was whining and Dad just "swatted" him on the butt. I do not think that is an offense worthy of spanking or "swatting" My dad is 6ft 6 and over 300lbs. My ds is 3ft 4 and 38lbs...hardly a fair match.

[coopnwhitsmommy]

Originally Posted by LoveBeads

The fact that you didn't even have a reaction when your father hit your child tells me that there are some deep seated feelings of fear that you have - if a stranger had hit your son I'm sure you would have had a very strong reaction.

.

This touched on something I hadn't thought of. You're right I am afraid of my Dad Not only did he hit me, but he's HUGE 6ft 6 and over 300lbs. Which is strange because he's sick and can barely walk anymore...so why am I afraid of him? Everytime I'm there I remember the beatings. He threw me to the ground once because I handed him the wrong screwdriver, I remember him choking me, I remember him pushing me around and screaming in my face for eating the last dill pickle that he had wanted...like I could know that! I am afraid of him. I should probably explore these feelings.

[sunnmama]

Hugs, Becca
My dad never did anything nearly so violent to me, and I still fear him a little.

[Dal]

Becca that is HORRIBLE!!! That must also have made watching him spank your son so much worse -- and it would have been horrible enough if you had "only" endured "normal" spankings as a child. His size must have made it so so scary for your son too. What a thoughtless thing for your father to do!!! Grrrrrrr.

[LooseyLu]

Becca, many people who spank are loving, misguided parents who are simply falling prey to one of our society's unpleasant norms. But what you described from your father is abuse, not discipline. I'm so sorry that you were raised that way. My mother had a volitile temper and I grew up halfway fearful and halfway numb. A slap on the butt wouldn't be much of a shock to a child who was accustomed to this kind of rough treatment. What your father doesn't understand is that your son had never been hit, and had no immunity to it. When he struck your son, the poor baby didn't recieve the experience as something normal that accompanies love, which is absolutely wonderful. How many of us who were spanked as children grew up and allowed people to mistreat us, b/c we believe that it is normal for those we care about to hurt us? Your son experienced what happened for what it really was: an act of cruelty and intimidation. I don't think that your father can ever understand that, and he may never recognize that spanking is wrong. I emphatically DISAGREE with those posters who have said that you should force your father to admit that spanking is wrong. You can't control his thoughts and beliefs, but you have every right to control his treatment of your son. Someone else mentioned calling the police b/c spanking is illegal. I know that this is my first post and I probably shouldn't rock the boat, but I don't believe there is any place in the real world where a slap on the rump is illegal. Your dad is who he is, and although it would be lovely if you could change his mind about spanking, the issue here is really about respect for you as the mother of your child. Good luck!

[abac]

Originally Posted by LooseyLu

I don't believe there is any place in the real world where a slap on the rump is illegal

Actually, it is illegal in these countries:Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Germany, Italy, Cyprus, Croatia, Israel and Latvia. In Canada, it is illegal to spank anyone not between the ages of 2 and 10 years.

[Plummeting]

Regarding the law, I furthermore believe that it IS illegal to spank someone ELSE's child. I think it would be considered assault. Otherwise, strangers in the grocery store could just walk up and spank your kid, couldn't they? Or you, for that matter.

I'm so sorry you're going through this! I agree that you have some issues of your own to work out with your father and I would NEVER, EVER leave your DS alone with him again!

[wasabi]

Originally Posted by peaceful herbivore

See, it is those blurry lines that bother me. Spank, swat, hit, slap on hand etc...to me, it is all the same---to other people I realize it is different. That is why I am careful when speaking to other people in my wording--I inform them that no one will TOUCH, touch, in any way other than in love, my child, and no, hitting, swatting, etc is not love...

...because some people will honestly say "I didn't hit them, I swatted them!" and seriously in their minds think that they were honoring your wishes!! Believe it or not....so you have to be painfully clear sometimes. You shouldn't have to I know, but sometimes it is neccessary.

This is so true. We were at GMIL's house last year and my DD was climbing on top of a footstool. So she's on something that is both not high and meant to have feet on it but for whatever reason GMIL decided DD just should not be on it which whatever it's her house. Anyway she said in a playful sort of voice "get down from there" and bopped DD on the head and then did it again a minute later. It was clearly not done with a disciplinary intent but that's not how I want instructions to be reinforced to my child. So I said "please don't hit her on the head again." She launched into a big debate with me over whether or not she had hit her. I said "ok please don't bop her on the head." She continued protesting and said how DD was not hurt (very true) and if she had meant to hit/hurt her we'd know it and :blab:. I finally said "ok whatever it is you would like to call what you just did to her head please do not do it again." She then wanted to go into a huget thing about how if I didn't want her to touch DD ever that was all I had to say etc. She then wanted to "tell me something" about how much I'm messing up with DD and I simply refused to debate her. I said I wasn't going to argue with her about it but that she simply could not touch her to get her to do something. There's no point in arguing with her about it but yeah I couldn't believe what a huge scene she made over this. She was clearly spoiling for a fight on the issue though because she'd already made a few remarks here and there earlier in the visit as she has on other occasions when visiting us. Quite honestly I don't care what they think since she's my child but they may not touch her to discipline her period.

On the issue of legality it may be true that a swat on the bottom is technically assault and illegal but I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who would press charges for it.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by LooseyLu

I don't think that your father can ever understand that, and he may never recognize that spanking is wrong. I emphatically DISAGREE with those posters who have said that you should force your father to admit that spanking is wrong. You can't control his thoughts and beliefs, but you have every right to control his treatment of your son.

It doesn't matter whether he thinks spanking is right or wrong. It only matters whether he spanks or hits.

Though in this case, for the sake of their relationship, it would be better if he would tell her that he was wrong for hitting her when she was little. But I wouldn't make that a condition of an ongoing relationship. As I have found with my mom, and as many of us have found, the parents who didn't have the self-control to stop themselves from taking their anger out on us when we were little and helpless, can't stop themselves now, either.

[AnnMarie]

Originally Posted by coopnwhitsmommy

This touched on something I hadn't thought of. You're right I am afraid of my Dad Not only did he hit me, but he's HUGE 6ft 6 and over 300lbs. Which is strange because he's sick and can barely walk anymore...so why am I afraid of him? Everytime I'm there I remember the beatings. He threw me to the ground once because I handed him the wrong screwdriver, I remember him choking me, I remember him pushing me around and screaming in my face for eating the last dill pickle that he had wanted...like I could know that! I am afraid of him. I should probably explore these feelings.

: JMO, but I think if that were my parent I would NOT let him be with my children, at least alone, not even for a second. After all the things he's done to you, I feel that your children are at risk by being near him. He did it right in front of you. Imagine what he could or would do if you weren't there. You need to tell this man that what he did to you, and what he did to your son was WRONG, and that it is NEVER to happen again. If it were me and it happened again I would cut ALL TIES to protect my children. JMO.

[ShelleyMom2in2]

To the op...you are much calmer than I am!! Anyone hits my child and they will be in so much pain. I have no problem throttling another adult. Its just my instinct. Protect baby first..deal with others second

[katallen]

I would tell him that if he spanks your child again you will no longer visit and that all discipline matters are to be handled by you especially when you are around. It is probably a control issue with him. Unless you are okay with him doing this I would put up guidelines immediately. Let him know that what he did was wrong and that you are an adult and your child's mother and you will not have him taking over your job even if he doesn't agree with how you do it. You may consider telling him how his actions made you and your child feel and that if he wants to have much to do with your family he will need to learn to acknowledge feelings other than his own. I agree that he should also make a sincere apology. Also, when you are around him and your child is doing something that he may go over the edge about you should quickly step in and not allow him the opportunity to handle any discipline. We have a set of grandparents that we do not allow our child to see unsupervised (including in the next room over) because they discipline in ways we don't approve of, this has helped us not get to the point where they will discipline her and I am hoping it will stay that way.

[cozymama]

Anyone who raises their hand to my child will not be allowed around him EVER again- there is no second chance- if you hit my child, that's it. That may sound intense (and doesn't sound like something OP wants) but I was hit alot as a kid and it will NEVER happen to my son. My mom (the offender) knows this and while I can't imagine her ever touching my son (I think she really regrets what she did to me and db) she knows that's it if she does.

Why?

Because ultimately this isn't about me or her, it is about my son. He will never have to be around anyone he is afraid of. While I do agree that writing a letter/email to the OP's dad is a great idea, I want to bring us back to her son-- ultimately this is about our kids. Of course, our own histories are a part of how we react, etc. but we need to protect our kids, however each of us defines that.

Just wanted to add that although I have never used this argument with a family member, in a hypothetical discussion with a colleague I pointed out that I would treat my child being hit/spanked/whatever-it's-all-violence-to-me by a relative the same way I would a stranger-- I'd call the police etc. and hope this makes a strong point to the offender that they are being abusive, etc.

[LooseyLu]

Originally Posted by abac

Actually, it is illegal in these countries:Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Germany, Italy, Cyprus, Croatia, Israel and Latvia. In Canada, it is illegal to spank anyone not between the ages of 2 and 10 years.

Originally Posted by Richelle

Regarding the law, I furthermore believe that it IS illegal to spank someone ELSE's child. I think it would be considered assault.

Well, you learn sumthin new every day...

[hipumpkins]

I don't even think people who use spanking as discipline allow other people to hit thier kids.
Your dad needs to be told that he can not hit your son EVER. Debating the merits of not spanking will probably be lost on him. I'll bet you will feel empowered b/c you couldn't protect yourself from him so many years ago but you CAN protect your child.
If your son does not want to visit grandpa for now I would not force him. You can even tell your dad that DS is frightened of him now and is't ready to see him. Maybe he will get the message that way.

[coopnwhitsmommy]

My Dad has apologized for many things that went wrong in my life, that were his fault (my parents are keisters basically) I don't know if he has apologized for hitting me. But it doesn't matter really. I love him, and he's dying, he's 46 and has had half a dozen heart attacks, a stroke, and a kidney transplant, he is in the end stages of type 1 diabetes. I'm not going to deprive him, me, or my children of a relationship. I'll just have to be more vigilant and speak to him about not spanking. Ds loves his Papa and I think it would be more damageing in the long wrong to break that bond.