Loved my intrathecal! No natural childbirth for me EVER again! - Page 6

[sugarbeth]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma

You can disagree all you want.. I think your reply to me is arrogant and rude I stand firm I have birthed 8 babies in varying places and headspaces.. I also am drawing on the collective experience of other groups I belong too.. to each their own.. birth was not designed as a flawed process .. attendants were not part of the intitial plan for evolution

For the record, I'm the one who called your comment misogynistic. For you to insinuate that I wouldn't feel pain under better circumstances (I was Bradley trained and well-informed, loved my birth attendants, my husband was awesome, I labored right where I wanted to be - I think my circumstances were perfect) belittles my experience and my feelings.

Birth comes easy to you. I get it. For you to assume that it comes easy for everybody and that I'm somehow to blame for the pain that I felt is so very condescending.

And I would contend that human childbirth IS an inherently flawed process. If it was perfect, mommas and babies would never die or be harmed during it. And it sure wouldn't hurt like a son-of-a-b****.

[jessemoon]

I remember reading somewhere that humans sacrificed easy childbirth for great big brains (evolution wise) and that is why we have had attendants going back as far as any kind of records/artifacts referrring to birth exist.

This is not to say that UC is unnatural or wierd, but having had my baby at home with wonderful midwives and my husband and my mom present, I can say (purely from my own experience) that it was painful and their presence didn't do much one way or another to change the amount of pain that I was feeling. What I did appreciate, though was their calming influence.

I think that I handled the pain better because they reassured me that I was fine. And when it came time to push out my 10 1/2 pound guy and he got stuck, I was very grateful for the presence of cool-headed women who had seen this process before. He was my first baby...maybe if I was on baby number 7, I wouldn't have wanted or needed attendants.

I think that marsupialmom's experiences are valid and I am delighted for her that she has found ways of birthing her babies that work for her and that she trusts her body and advocates that other women do the same. On the other hand, I also believe that part of the point of empowering women to take back their birth experiences has to do with choice.

I made the choice to have attendants and I don't believe that it was the wrong one. If I look back on my birth experience fondly and wouldn't change anything (including the pain,quite frankly) then it was the best experience for me.

I think it is a little presumptious to assume that the pain that I felt was my fault for choosing to have a support system with me during my labor. My support system was what helped make the experience of birthing my first child a positive one. If we are to be supportive of women who choose to birth unnassissted, then I believe that we need to be supportive of women who birth surrounded by a community of women that they trust as well.

[homebirthing]

Wow, I wouldn't ever give birth without another woman present. Even if it is my sister, my mother or my doula. I love my midwife and I am lucky to have her as a friend as well...but I think that *most* women are lucky to have a compasionate caring woman with them. I understand not wanting anyone there, but as far back as history goes, there are women supporting women in the birth tent. Midwifery is an old and much needed role in our culture as humans. There are hieroglyphs dipicting women helping women to give birth.

[Yummymummy74]

Originally Posted by sugarbeth

Birth comes easy to you. I get it. For you to assume that it comes easy for everybody and that I'm somehow to blame for the pain that I felt is so very condescending.

And I would contend that human childbirth IS an inherently flawed process. If it was perfect, mommas and babies would never die or be harmed during it. And it sure wouldn't hurt like a son-of-a-b****.

Huh?? you dont know a thing about my birth history! I have been through alot aside from c-section.. now THATS condescending to say "birth comes easy" to me.. : I have spent years on my journey.. making mistakes, bad choices..being victimized by the medical establishment.. and yes my hospital births hurt.. the ones that were not drugged.. I have had ones where the drugs never worked.. where the drugs went into my blood stream and almost killed me and my baby.. I have had good ones that did work.. I have had unmedicated hospital birth..I have had forceps birth I had had lithotomy birth I have had squatting birth I have had 7 posterior births and one anterior, I have had induction birth I have had spontanious birth... geez anything else you want to know??? crap the list could go on.. ( I wont call it natural because there is nothing natural about a hospital to me anymore) and I have had an beautiful.. basically painfree home freebirth resulting in a 9 pound 8 ounce darling girl. Why was it NOT painful?? because I had no one shoving their hands up me every hour.. no performance anxiety.. no person between my legs who does NOT belong there.. I was safe.. in control.. on my own terms.. and I did not even beleive I was IN labour until my daughters head was literally falling out of me... yes its true.. and I am NOT the only one who will tell you this..There were no machines to go ping.. no ridiculous curves to adhere too, no midwife with her own biases and fears to bring that into my space to make my sacred birth space toxic... please do not compare attended birth to unattended birth, the semantics around it fine.. but there is a WHOLE world of difference in terms of pain and its not just been my experience.

Please do not insinuate I am off the ball with my remarks, I never slammed your opinion I just stated mine and you did not agree with it..I have had more babies than most people I know, and while that does not make me an expert it does however give me a very distinct advantage in terms of real life comparison.. life is about continuous learning learning (well hey it is for me) and if people are too close minded to see that possibly..just *maybe* there is more to birth than whats on the surface and what they are seeing and living .. well then thats sad 5 years ago I was NOT where I am now.. I too thought birth was just this painful ordeal to get through I am eternally greatful to the womyn who opened my mind and allowed me to see that it did not have to be that way.. gosh there is so much that ties into this and I can see now that this forum is not the place for it.. so I will bow out now and stay in forums pertinant to my I guess *whacked out beliefs* about birth :

[Nabbe]

I am one of those who comes the other way around. I had two medicated births with the "walk-around-epidural", hurted like hell, then i had a natural birth with only acupuncture after, and it was just as much pain, but yet, it was NATURAL. I DID IT. My body DID IT. What a rush! And i now withdraw every word i said about homebirth, cuz if its medically recomendable next time (if ever), I will give birth at home, i hope! So i would say more and more natural childbirths for me! Who gives a sh*t about epi, it hurts just as much anyway!

[thismama]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma

So please do not insinuate I am off the ball with my remarks, I never slammed your opinion I just stated mine and you did not agree with it..

I'm sorry to hear about your bad birthing experiences, and glad to hear about your positive one.

However, you cannot simply extend your experience and assume it fits that of all women. It is appropriate to share what works FOR YOU, and for people you know who have similar experiences.

For me, I thought my birth attendants were wonderful and exactly what I needed. The special and empowering experience that my labour was had a lot to do with the people present. That is MY experience. I felt a LOT of pain, that was also MY experience. And I know it was NOT because of my birth attendants... it was because for me, my labour hurt a lot.

When you discount my experience and replace it with what you think should be true for all women because it was true for you, that is disrespectful and offensive. Please respect that my experience is as valid as yours.

[Greaseball]

My mother had one 1960s hospital birth and two unassisted homebirths. She says they all hurt equally.

I suppose when a UCer has birth pain, it could be blamed on her attitude. :

[Jane]

Originally Posted by thepeach80

Do you have anything on this I could read?

When Survivors Give Birth

[Yummymummy74]

Originally Posted by thismama

That is MY experience. I felt a LOT of pain, that was also MY experience. And I know it was NOT because of my birth attendants... it was because for me, my labour hurt a lot.

With all due respect how can you say this in such a concrete manner?? you have nothing to compare that experience too?? I guess this is the problem people are not going to see it until they live it.

>>>>>>>>exiting this thread

[wasabi]

Originally Posted by thismama

When you discount my experience and replace it with what you think should be true for all women because it was true for you, that is disrespectful and offensive. Please respect that my experience is as valid as yours.

This was my take on it as well. If one woman has no pain when she is not attended well that's wonderful for her but I still had pain when I had no one with me. I was not afraid. I was not uptight. I felt my body knew what it was doing and everything was fine and I still felt pain.

Captain_Optimism asked if we were arguing about whether or not birth attendants can affect pain in labor. No I don't think that's the question at all. I think we all agree that birth attendants can very much affect our labor experiences and our pain with labor. What we do not agree on is that all pain in labor is caused by birth attendants and that if we all just had UCs we wouldn't have pain in labor.

[Rainbow]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma

With all due respect how can you say this in such a concrete manner?? you have nothing to compare that experience too?? I guess this is the problem people are not going to see it until they live it.

>>>>>>>>exiting this thread

Well, a lot of people labored alone for some time before the attendant showed up. It didn't magically start hurting when others arrived. The labor brought pain, and for some attendants brought more and for others attendants eased it. While others may not have birthed alone, the labor is more painful than the actual birth for many and many have labored alone and with company so there is some basis for comparison.

I definately think it is a factor, but IMO it isn't the bottom line.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by wasabi

Captain_Optimism asked if we were arguing about whether or not birth attendants can affect pain in labor. No I don't think that's the question at all. I think we all agree that birth attendants can very much affect our labor experiences and our pain with labor. What we do not agree on is that all pain in labor is caused by birth attendants and that if we all just had UCs we wouldn't have pain in labor.

What she said.

[Rainbow]

Personally I believe it is a lot of "mind over matter" the reason some can walk on hot coals and be ok, while I can't bump my hand on the oven rack without tearing up. The more you practice, experience and focus on getting the mind over the pain the more succesful you will be at pain free childbirth. *Believing* you know what causes the pain and eliminating that is just one more tool in getting your mind over the physical affects.

[homebirthing]

marsupial- I agree with you that "midwifes" at the hospital (which I have other terms for) are veyr invasive. I would MUCH rather give birth behind a dumpster then ever have another one try to "manage" my birth or put hands in places that don't belong! I am truely blessed with a midwife who does NO vaginal checks, NO testing, NO scare tactics. She has me make all decisions regarding my labor and birth, and she is there for me and my husband completely. She stands back and we do everything. She does check heartbeats at prenatals and birth, and she does the well baby check and completely attends me postpartum. I am so blessed to have her. SHE is a true midwife, and I can only be so lucky to be half the midwife she is. She empowers me to find my own power. If you find your power alone with your family, I think that is wonderful.

[Yummymummy74]

Originally Posted by thismama

ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS?????? My birth experience is not valid or "concrete" because I have "only" done it once? You are ridiculous. I am glad you are exiting this thread because I am exiting conversation with you. "With all due respect" my .

Hmmm tres mature! I never once called you names or insulted you directly I can see you have some major issues about this I am really sorry about that...

There was no need for you to get flippant and nasty.

[2+twins]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma

and I have had an beautiful.. basically painfree home freebirth resulting in a 9 pound 8 ounce darling girl. Why was it NOT painful?? because I had no one shoving their hands up me every hour.. no performance anxiety.. no person between my legs who does NOT belong there.. I was safe.. in control.. on my own terms.. and I did not even beleive I was IN labour until my daughters head was literally falling out of me... yes its true.. and I am NOT the only one who will tell you this..There were no machines to go ping.. no ridiculous curves to adhere too, no midwife with her own biases and fears to bring that into my space to make my sacred birth space toxic... please do not compare attended birth to unattended birth, the semantics around it fine.. but there is a WHOLE world of difference in terms of pain and its not just been my experience.

I too birthed a 9lb 8oz baby girl unattended and it hurt more than I could ever explain. MUCH MUCH more than my attended homebirth (with wonderful midwifes who I adored and I felt adored me) which was backlabor, btw, asynclitic head & compound presentation. I don't doubt that you had the experience you described. But it could be luck of the draw, it could be that *you* can't be comfortable enough during labor with attendants there, any number of other factors, or a combination thereof. I don't think it's fair to making sweeping generalizations on any topic and this is what it seems like you're doing. I think that attendants at birth are a necessary comfort for many women (not all). I personally prefer to be left alone - I'm more of a primal hide-in-a-cave-in-the-dark type of birther. For people like us maybe unattended *is* the less painful way to go. I honestly couldn't say if that's true in my case - I simply don't know as every birth (and it's sensations) is different. I guess I'm trying to say that I see both sides to this but it doesn't seem like you're open to the possibility that UC does not necessarily equal pain-free (or anything even close).

[homebirthing]

I have given birth in a hospital with strangers and family, at home with family and at home with A LOT of family and freinds. Next time, I am trimming in down to only...I don't know...5 or 6 people. That is a little for me!

[thismama]

DoulaSarah - my birth experience only included myself, my midwife, and a doula (who I didn't really like actually). I wanted it to be "private" and thought I would want that. Next time I'm thinking - I need more peeps! I needed a lot of strong counterpressure in labour to manage the pain, and I could tell it was physically exhausting for my birth helpers. Also it would be nice to have an extra body or two to make food, bring me things, and generally organize and arrange. So I'm going the opposite way that I thought I would.

I think it's funny that you are "trimming it down" to ONLY 5 or 6!

[Yummymummy74]

Originally Posted by DoulaSarah

marsupial- I agree with you that "midwifes" at the hospital (which I have other terms for) are veyr invasive. I would MUCH rather give birth behind a dumpster then ever have another one try to "manage" my birth or put hands in places that don't belong! I am truely blessed with a midwife who does NO vaginal checks, NO testing, NO scare tactics. She has me make all decisions regarding my labor and birth, and she is there for me and my husband completely. She stands back and we do everything. She does check heartbeats at prenatals and birth, and she does the well baby check and completely attends me postpartum. I am so blessed to have her. SHE is a true midwife, and I can only be so lucky to be half the midwife she is. She empowers me to find my own power. If you find your power alone with your family, I think that is wonderful.

Of course Sarah, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule right? my main contention with midwives, ob's and attendants in general is that they just CANNOT leave well enough alone.. almost every variation of normal to them is almost universally an accident waiting to happen I don't understand why people are not understanding my main point here.. when you introduce someone into the *birth soup*.. a complex mix of hormones, chemicals and primal instincts you are going to alter something somehow! everyone brings a bias with them everyone has their own fears.. and when your near a labouring woman she is a sponge .. open to ALL energy..

I just feel that on a subconscious level attended birth is more diffucult for the mother than unattended birth... the kind of midwife you describe is how they all should be.. but sadly its rare

[Yummymummy74]

Originally Posted by thismama

Marsupialmuma - Oh are you still here? I thought you were "exiting this thread."

Buh-bye.

Nope I can see you love me too much