this really disturbes me..advice please

[jannan]

last year in july and family moved in two houses up. they have a 7 year old , a teenage daughter and a 3 year old. on july 4th the kids were outside doing firecrackers with my father and the 7 year old appeared. we invited him upstairs to have cake........and then he left. myself , i find it amazing that nor his mother or father came down in introduce themselves after that.. he seemed nice enought but really ignores dd , she is 5 and ds is 15. fast foward to today..... on occassions his mother has sent him to our house while she drives to go do the laundry.......well, i stopped that. i also stopped her sending her son to our house to play while there was no adult in our own house. i just do not feel comfortable with the 7 year old here with out any adult here......be it my mom, or my dad or ds's father.......and i'm thinking "how much do they have in common?'' he won't hardly interact with dd because he says "all she has is girl toys" and him and ds play video games when he is here........ these games are not meant for a 7 year old ........or anyone for that matter . but that is a battle i lost with ds dad. all the games this kid plays are for mature. also, since our backyards are parallel he'll scream ds's name until he comes out. this kid is beginnig to bug me and i feel badly about that. i mean, his mother has never, ever stepped foot in here.... and one time i came home and my father was here in the back of the house and did not know that the 7 year old was here with the 3 year old! do you believe it?! my father is sometimes out of it as he is on heavy heart meds. i should add that ds was here when the 7 year old was here with his 3 year old brother. there are times when the 7 year old is here and the 3 year old walks two houses down to stay here and play! would that be ok with you. i have no relationship with the parents... because of the past behavior of the mother I don't feel comfortable talking to her.

then yesterday i see the 7 year old knocking on doors to go into peoples houses! he was knocking on the door of our neighbor who lives with his parents, his 2 year old girl and his 20 year old wife. oh and the neighbor himself is 24!

should i call cps? this kid is neglected and obviously ignored. i'm thinking about when we have a party or an event this kid will just pop in uninvited...and i can't be responsible for him. when i have b-day parties i always have the parents here to chit chat.


advice please. i hope i don't come across as too mean. i just think the mother is not responsible.

[Doodlebugsmom]

Ugh. What a situation! I think the only thing you can do is talk to the kid's parents and tell them what's going on and how you feel about it. I know that's easier said than done. I would definitely have trouble following my own advice in that situation. Confontation makes me really nervous. Good luck!

[Irishmommy]

Don't let him in the house! You could be asking for trouble there. If he is coming over and there is no-one at home (verify this), then you should call CPS for abandonment.

[~*max*~]

The poor boy. It certainly sounds like he is lacking in parental supervision/involvement.

The details in this situation sound familiar. Did you post a while back w/concerns about this child consistently trying to hang out w/your teenager?
If so, how did you handle that? It might help w/brainstorming a way to handle this one.

[janellesmommy]

If you really think the boy would be better off being permanently removed from the only family he knows and be moved from one foster home to the next for the rest of his childhood, likely being abused and ignored there, then yes, do call CPS. :

If the family does escape permanent removal of their children by CPS, they still will have 10s of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to pay and a lifetime of stress and worry from their experience with CPS.

I've never had any personal experience with CPS, but I've read enough about them to know that it should take a lot more than a seven year old being left home alone to get them involved!

[journeymom]

I have been there, done that! In fact, that's why we moved from our last house, no kidding.

Just to clarify: you have a 15 y.o. ds and a 3 y.o. dd?

The kid's mom has sent him over to your house, basically for babysitting, without coming over to meet you? So for all -she- knows, you guys could be murdurous pedophiles? (I know, doesn't quite fit with the AP lifestyle. )

Also, this 7 y.o. kid hollers from outside for your 15 y.o. ds to come out?

Is he basically a nice kid? Just bored?

At our last home the little neighbor girl was a little more than a year older than dd. A nice enough girl, but her mom was an absolute mess, with a succession of short term boyfriends, house trashed (there was no way I was going to let dd play over there). The little girl was bored and didn't have a sense of boundaries. She'd wake up early on Saturday morning (her mom's still asleep) and ring our doorbell to see if 2 y.o. dd could play.

Honestly, I used to do this same wandering-around-the-neighborhood thing when I was little. I was bored, and this was more than 30 years ago and life was a little safer.

First, don't ever let this kid be alone with your youngest. Heaven knows, he could have been abused and might abuse someone younger than him.

Second, this is not a CPS issue, it's a good neighbor issue. You really need to go to his mom before you do something like go to CPS. I know, this is The Hardest thing! But you need to protect yourself legally. What past behavior of the mom's makes you uncomfortable talking to her? Really, you have my upmost sympathy here, but if you can talk to her in a casual, friendly way and let her know that you are concerned about her 7 y.o. son coming over when #1 there's no one at your house for him to play with, and #2 when you aren't even there. This is the kind of person who you have to be very clear about where your boundaries are.

Good luck. Like I said, you have my sympathy.

[journeymom]

Also, Paula stated it kind of harshly, but I agree with her. CPS is like chemotherapy for cancer. It's rather brutal and can do damage itself and you don't want to use it unless you're sure you have cancer. CPS is this big, dumb, inept burocracy with a big stick and you want to be sure it's justified before it sets its sights on its next victim. How's that for mixing metaphors?

[makawee]

Originally Posted by journeymom

Also, Paula stated it kind of harshly, but I agree with her. CPS is like chemotherapy for cancer. It's rather brutal and can do damage itself and you don't want to use it unless you're sure you have cancer. CPS is this big, dumb, inept burocracy with a big stick and you want to be sure it's justified before it sets its sights on its next victim. How's that for mixing metaphors?

Thank you! Well stated and totally true. Before you report anyone remember the lifetime of stress, anxiety, anger that come because you made a report. Actually there might not be anything to report - I think you need actual proof of neglect and lack of supervision doesn't fit the bill. Besides - what do you really know about the mama? Why can't you go and introduce yourself?

[stafl]

My sister does have first-hand experience with CPS, and it's nothing like that at all. Her foster son has been given back to his bio-mother three times in the last four years, only to be dropped on her doorstep whem bio-mom goes on another crack binge or gets herself arrested. At least where they live, CPS very strongly favors leaving a kid with bio parents, even when that parent is a , , , , , ! The boy has a good loving home with my sister's family, but his mother only has to say to a judge that she wants him back and she'll be better this time, and she gets him back, to live out of her car or in a motel, to sleep in a bus station while she goes off with her pimp-daddy (yes, that really happened, more than once). She has never spent one penny on legal fees, either. Yet my sister, who is for all intents and purposes that child's mother, can't get the legal adoption through the courts because at the last minute, his bio-mom changes her mind *again*... (edited to add, they live in Texas)


anyway, I get tired of hearing how horrible CPS is and how all they do is tear families apart, and that's just not true, at least not all the time. You only hear about the worst cases, never the good they do.

a seven year old left alone without any sort of adult supervision does indeed qualify as neglect. He needs help. Do not let him in your house, tell him to have his mother call you, give him your phone number, but don't let him inside without his parents' knowledge. You could be setting yourself up for a lawsuit.

[Doodlebugsmom]

anyway, I get tired of hearing how horrible CPS is and how all they do is tear families apart, and that's just not true, at least not all the time. You only hear about the worst cases, never the good they do.

I agree with this. My mom is a CPS supervisor and has been a CPS worker for 25 years. She is excellent at what she does and wants to keep families together if at all possible. Too many times a family court judge has allowed severely abused children to go back to their parents, while keeping some children away from their families when the best thing would be to go back. It's ultimately up to the family court judge.

[Irishmommy]

Originally Posted by janellesmommy

If you really think the boy would be better off being permanently removed from the only family he knows and be moved from one foster home to the next for the rest of his childhood, likely being abused and ignored there, then yes, do call CPS. :

If the family does escape permanent removal of their children by CPS, they still will have 10s of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to pay and a lifetime of stress and worry from their experience with CPS.

I've never had any personal experience with CPS, but I've read enough about them to know that it should take a lot more than a seven year old being left home alone to get them involved!

When you DO have personal experience with CPS, then feel free to comment. I'm a foster parent, and I know that it takes a lot to remove a child, it's always the last resort, and I have yet to meet a bio parent that actually paid a lawyer, they've all used legal aid. CPS is there to help, believe it or not.

[e&r]

I have to say that I've had to report twice to CPS as a teacher. Neither time were the children placed in foster care, but the parents were required to take parenting classes (paid for in one instance as the parents didn't have a lot of money).

CPS did not want to take the children in either case, but in the second case I called in the children were taken to the grandparents house (just 30 miles away, but in another state) for one night while the situation was sorted out.

Both instances involved children coming to school with bruising and a very clear description of what had happened. Both children were too young to be able to lie for their parents, but in the first case the child did try (badly) and then clarified with the truth (she was just three).

I was more scared for the child in the first case (the three year old) because I knew that her father had just the day before been released from rehab. The next day she shows up with clear handprint bruising on her arm. In this case CPS took three days to respond!!! They asked me to determine if she was in danger and I told them that was their job, not mine! They wanted an excuse to put off coming right away.

In the second case it was a different state and they responded within an hour. I was not so immediately afraid for this child, and if I wasn't a mandated reporter might have waited until after I spoke to the parents before calling. This case involved a child with Asperger's with behavior issues (only at home) and I knew that his parents struggled daily with his terrible behavior at home.

This was the case where he and a sibling went to the grandparents' for the night. The children were brought back the next day not having any clue as to what had happened, just that they got to spend an unexpected night with their grandparents. The children were not at all upset. The parents were initially very upset with me, but after about six months they both thanked me (I was shocked! I'd be pissed at me, too!) and said that the parenting help they received changed their family dynamic in such positive ways. They didn't realize how much they were struggling - they had no perspective.

Anyway, my point is that if you think that this child is neglected enough that he might be taken or sexually abused or hurt because he is approaching strangers and making himself available to them and his parents don't know this then you should perhaps first talk to them (or write an anonymous note if you can't bring yourself to approach them) and see if they respond with any better supervision and then call CPS, or just call.

While it would not be your fault if anything happened to him, you would still probably feel terrible if you had done nothing.

Good luck, what a hard situation.
Ellen

[Yummymummy74]

Originally Posted by Irishmommy

When you DO have personal experience with CPS, then feel free to comment. I'm a foster parent, and I know that it takes a lot to remove a child, it's always the last resort, and I have yet to meet a bio parent that actually paid a lawyer, they've all used legal aid. CPS is there to help, believe it or not.

WOW!!! I cannot believe your comments on this! I WILL comment CAS is horrible I know families who have lost homes and cars and their lives basically because of being harassed by this agency.. was CAS there to help Dorian Baxter? why did CAS actually get sued over that case? why do they continue to pay out people for silence? how come Ontario has such an active CAS opposition movement!

I understand you work for them (you take a paycheque from them correct?) but really to say they ALWAYS help and always mean well is just ludicrous.. what about all the poor nurslings who are denied breast milk? are you aware Jack Newman has been fighting with them for years about the infant/mother bonding issues and poor practices they employ with infant "care"

You might be biased .. I don't know you and you probably mean well but please do not advertise these people to be something they are not.
Are you familiar with the outcome of the Hadley inquest? a Lawyer friend of our familys sat on that panel.. and CAS was heavily involved in the demise of that family.

What about the recent changed that were made to the act that allow CAS to swoop in and terminate parental rights in less than 12 months? if your familiar with the court system in southern Ont then you know it takes at least 3 mos after the initial apprehension hearings to even get a court date.

As for legal aid.. are you KIDDING? :LOL eligibilty requirements are insane and the representation you get from it is sub par.. I can put you in contact with many families who lost everything paying for lawyers in order to get their babies back from the pits of that CAS is..

To the Americans reading this your system does not appear so bad.. there does appear to be certain states that are more "hotbeds" of activity than others but for the most there seems to be more pull for parents rights.

Anyhow ...

CAS is a machine... a WELL oiled one..

[Yummymummy74]

Originally Posted by Irishmommy

I have yet to meet a bio parent that actually paid a lawyer, they've all used legal aid. CPS is there to help, believe it or not.

Ok I have to touch on this again (sorry :LOL ) can you please re read this and tell me its not discriminatory and perpetuating a stereotype that families who are harrassed by CAS are always "legal aid" fare? what does that tell you about your own convictions?

I would really like to hear your response to this.

[jannan]

ok, to clarify my dd is 6 and ds is 15. i did post about this last summer . i don't feel comfortable about going to the house. i feel like the mother has set the tone..i don't want to make any friends now. But next time the kid comes i was thinking of going to the house and talking to her and saying "my daughter is 6 and my son is 15. all Luis (her son)wants to do is play video games that are not appropriate for him and i won't allow that in my house and he basically ignores my youngest...." but i do like the suggestion of giving our phone number to him and telling him to have his mother call me so he can play............but, honestly , the house is really crowded right now and i can't stand people in it. it is bad enough my sister comes over with her two kids..i just can't stand alot of toys out and noise. i know that sounds really inviting but that is just where i am right now..............

actually he has not come over without his parents being at their house in a while....when ever he comes i say "do your parents know you are here "? and he'll say "yes" but i've never confirmed it. so now i'm torn:

either put a stop to this and say to the mom"in reality, our children have nothing in common and would prefer that he not come over" that is way harsh.

or when he comes give him our number and tell the mother to call so we can arrange something.

[Raynbow]

CPS won't do anything anyway probably.
Unless there is an injury and they discover a problem in the house (like no food or extreme mess), in most states there is NO legal age a child must be to be left home alone and CPS will NOT intervene unless something happens.
They may investigate, but even if they do and find a problem, the parents MIGHT be court ordered to undergo parenting classes, etc, but in most cases, no one follows through.
My stbxH left his then 13 yr old son alone while he went on a 3 day vacation approx 2 hours from home. Apparently one of the neighbors noticed something and called C&Y, who came with a police officer to investigate - they ONLY reason they removed SS from the apt was because - there was virtually no food (some canned goods) and it had no cooling (July, no ac). They called me, I took SS in and despite C&Y calling stbxH & informing him of the removal, he stayed the remaining two days of his vacation.
On his return, SS was returned directly to him - he went to court a few months later, was apparently found guilty of child neglect, was court ordered to attending parenting classes & get psych evals on himself and child - he got one on child, but didn't do any of the rest.
C&Y did nothing.
A few months after that, he choked SS & called C&Y and TOLD them what he did (he wanted SS put in foster care). They set up a hearing - DID NOT REMOVE the child and when the child's mother arranged to have him sent to her the day before the hearing, C&Y dropped the case completely.

[stafl]

in most states there is NO legal age a child must be to be left home alone

that can't be true! I wonder where we can find out the laws for each individual state.

But I can relate to the rest of your story. I have heard online horror stories about CPS taking kids away, but in real life the stories are always in favor of the birth parents, no matter how neglectful or abusive they might be.

[4evermom]

I've have a few minor experiences with neighborkids having little or no sense of boundaries. Usually, being really clear and telling them your rules helps a lot, because they literally have no clue. Then, of course, reminding them if they forget your rules because other peoples kids aren't always used to consistancy. It's a tough situation. Good luck.

[Irishmommy]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma

I understand you work for them (you take a paycheque from them correct?)

No, I don't work for them. Foster parents do not get a paycheck. We get money to cover the child's expenses, that's all.

but really to say they ALWAYS help and always mean well is just ludicrous..

Where did I say that?

what about all the poor nurslings who are denied breast milk? are you aware Jack Newman has been fighting with them for years about the infant/mother bonding issues and poor practices they employ with infant "care"

In my experience with my agency, any birth mom that is bf is accommodated pretty damn well, and I have yet to hear of a foster mom in my area that would toss the bm in favour of formula

You might be biased ..

Nope, I've also been a child in need of care, and didn't get it.

What about the recent changed that were made to the act that allow CAS to swoop in and terminate parental rights in less than 12 months?

For a young child, it is 12 months, for over age 5 (I think), it is 24. And that's only for CAS to decide whether they want to terminate. There is still then getting court dates, trial, etc., which can take another year or more. During that time the parents are still able to work to get their kids back. The parents rights don't automatically terminate after the 12 months.

if your familiar with the court system in southern Ont then you know it takes at least 3 mos after the initial apprehension hearings to even get a court date.

They actually have to be in court within 5 days or less. It usually drags on because the parents don't have lawyers at the first date.

[Irishmommy]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma

Ok I have to touch on this again (sorry :LOL ) can you please re read this and tell me its not discriminatory and perpetuating a stereotype that families who are harrassed by CAS are always "legal aid" fare? what does that tell you about your own convictions?

I would really like to hear your response to this.

No, it's not discriminatory. It's my experience that most parents use legal aid. I apologize, I shouldn't have said all, I've just thought of one that didn't. And fwiw, I'm not in a "poor" area.