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Obstetrics/Gynecology and Sublimation  

post #1 of 87
Thread Starter 
That intrathecal thread has certainly opened a lot of discussions!

When I was taking psych in college, one of the things we learned about were coping mechanisms. One of them being sublimating, where people take socially unacceptable traits and choose a career that makes them acceptable, ie; the voyuer takes up photography, the violent take up boxing, and the misogynist takes up gynecology or obstetrics.

The OB cutting my client against her wishes (posted in the intrathecal thread) did so with such glee it was sickening. I have no doubt in my mind that if he wasn't legally and in a socially acceptable way cutting women's privates up, he would no doubt be doing so in other dark and evil ways. Becoming an OB/GYN gives him an avenue for indulging in a perversion of his, and he can convince everyone, including himself, that cutting up vaginas is a good and right thing to do.
I see or hear about subtle forms of this often. Almost every woman I know detests having a pap smear done. When they come into my care, and I do a pap for them, they are amazed that it didn't hurt. Most tell me that their GYN (usually male) made it so traumatic for them that they put it off for years.
Vaginal exams that are rough and painful, interviews that take place with the woman naked and on a table with only a paper sheet to cover herself, having a woman remove her clothing before she even meets the doctor, these are all designed to make her more vulnerable and weak.
I even read a paper published in a ACOG journal about how to make a woman more compliant and less vocal by using the above mentioned techniques and others, like sitting behind a huge desk in a chair designed to make the doctor look bigger, while she sits in a small and uncomfortable chair. This is designed to bring back memories of being a child in the presence of an authority figure (think principals office) and to make her more likely to obey.

Thoughts?
post #2 of 87
I definitely think you have a point. I don't think this is true of course of every OB out there, but I've seen a lot who really get off on having control over women.
I think obstetrics as a field gets off on having control. Why else is there such amazing persistence of practices that are so clearly known to have no benefit? Why on earth is anyone in the world using routine episiotomies when dozens of studies have shown that they cause more pain, more tears and extensions, more incontinence, etc., etc.?
I have the same experience when I do pap smears, too. If I can mostly due them comfortably, surely everybody could
I don't understand how this got to be our birth culture, and how it can be reversed.
post #3 of 87
Oh no! I thought I was lifting a quote (yes I am narcissistic) from this post and replying to a post lower down on the thread, and I managed to erase my own (very eloquent if I do say so myself) post! Geez. Anyway, I think I said something like...

I DO know why our birth culture is so horrible. Patriarchy has been seeking to remove and appropriate women's power for many years. Think of Goddess religion turned Christianity, midwifery turned obstetrics, witchcraft turned priesthood, the wage gap, the devaluing of work that has traditionally been the province of women.

Birth is tremendously powerful. It is the very perpetuation of human life. No wonder the patriarchy would seek to control it, by teaching women that it is too much for us, that our bodies are not built properly to do it, that we *need* intervention, and to get it we must unquestioningly accept what the medical establishment decides to do to us.

Then I said this (the only part of my post I have left):

This is the reason why I believe taking back our births is so important. I actually don't think epidurals have major effect on babies (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point). The point is that even IF individual interventions are relatively harmless, it is the culture of dependence on and control by the medical establishment that is so harmful.

Anyway, carry on...
post #4 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
I actually don't think epidurals have major effect on babies (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point). The point is that even IF individual interventions are relatively harmless, it is the culture of dependence on and control by the medical establishment that is so harmful.
I agree with you, actually. My reasons for not wanting an epidural are really more for myself than for my baby. I don't want the increased risk of a c-section, I don't want pitocin and an episiotomy because my body's ability to birth has been dampened by drugs, I don't want to passively "be delivered" of my baby. I want to be as present as possible in one of the most dramatically powerful moments of my life. I don't want to surrender that experience, even if it hurts like hell.
post #5 of 87
Oh yes yes yes! Not enough YES in the world to tell you how much I agree with you! I think this form of "care" (huh!) is institutionalised rape and violence against women. And we are just as accepting of it in our societies as we are of other forms of violence against women. After all, if we didn't accept it, wouldn't we all be working to stop it? Running programmes like "Birth is great and you're in charge of your own body" or "Drugs in birth? Just say NO!" or "If scalp monitors don't hurt, stick it in your head first!" "Episiotomy is genital mutilation." I am always so saddened by the women I come into contact with who are almost unable to own the trauma which occurred because their brain is in conflict over it. On the one hand they know it felt bad, but OTOH they are told over and over how doctors only do good, they only do stuff which is necessary yada yada yada. There are millions of women who think it's birth which is traumatic when in actual fact it's what was *done* to them under the guise of birth which is traumatic. And there are millions of traumatised women because of this conventional medical behaviour. What happened to bodily integrity? What happened to consent?
Oh I could rave for hours!
post #6 of 87
I agree with you totally! I don't think they all are in it for that reason, but yeah. I can see that. That's a shame about your client.

I had something like that done to me with my first. It was a clinic, so I didn't get to choose my doctor, and the guy was a complete jerk. I told him I didn't want an episiotomy, and he laughed and did it anyway. At my pp visit i was *lucky* enough to get him again, and he told me I was starving my baby and that if I continued to breastfeed he's call cps... (slow weight gain). so me being naive and young and scared, quit. (much later on i when i knew so much more, i looked at her baby book and saw she had regained her birth weight plus 1/2 pound 5 weeks pp...)

anyway, yeah, i agree...
post #7 of 87
Yes, yes, yes!!!!!!
Absolutely!!!! I remember the first time I finally realized that was true. I truely remember the moment. It was a revelation, and epiphany. It change my entire life from that moment on. I was ( and still am ) angry, angry, angry about it. I have dedicated much of my life since then to helping to be part of a change. Change is slow, but I'm willing to help one woman at a time.
post #8 of 87
I always found it wierd and was very supicious of any male ob. And I am amazed you give pap smears and exams that don't hurt! I have had maybe....oh three in my life and that is all I will have. Next one I have (if I need one really bad) will definately be from a woman as I don't believe I should be taking my clothes off for a man other than my hubby even if he is a doc. My last exam I had done out of pure fear and ignorance. I had just gotten pregnant and hadn't found a mw yet and had such awful cramps that I was worried so I went to an ob. Everything was normal of course.

I left there feeling soooo awful. It hurt like heck when he stuck his fingers in me and then he stuck them somewhere else without asking! I'm like, "why do you need to check there?" Then when he examined my upper half he asked me to put my arms behind my head, ok, so I did. Then he left my legs in the stirrups and the top of my gown open while he chatted a bit about what he thought. You would think I would jump up and cover myself but strangly found myself frozen in that position feeling totally awful. I don't know why I didn't say anything, they truly do put you in a position of weakness and I felt so dumb for not saying anything about it. :

I mean seriously, why the heck would a guy want to do this for a living??? Any decent guy I know says no way in hell he would do that for a living. What is the attraction? Gee, I wonder.

And how can any man do a better job than a woman when it comes to these things? They can't exactly relate...

Oh and HeatherE: luv the sig
post #9 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenkids
Becoming an OB/GYN gives him an avenue for indulging in a perversion of his, and he can convince everyone, including himself, that cutting up vaginas is a good and right thing to do.
I see or hear about subtle forms of this often.
Years ago, I read an account by Bruno Bettleheim about a little boy cutting off the breasts of a Barbie doll...this was a little boy who was in therapy...he told Dr. Bettleheim that he wanted to take out all of the organs that women have to make babies because he did not like the fact that girls could make babies and little boys can not.

I do not know where I read this exactly, but I know for sure that I read it in reference to feminist literature.

i believe what you say, and I think that many men are in obstetrics.

Another note about obstetricians is that the cream of the medical school crop does not notably go into the ob/gyn field...the top of the class usually goes into internal medicine or cardiology.

Not always, but, obstetricians tend to come from the lower 10% of their medical class.
post #10 of 87
Question: What do you call the person who graduates last in their medical class?

Answer: Doctor.
post #11 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
epidural do not hurt the baby. (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point).
No, it is not the point, then why make it...

See the twenty year study done by Bertil Jacobson done in the Scandanivian countries on just this point.
post #12 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
...epidurals do not affect the baby. (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point).
No, it is not the point, then why make it...

See the twenty year study done by Bertil Jacobson done in the Scandanivian countries on just this point.

ETA

http://www.birthpsychology.com/lifeb...wombsafe3.html

Furthermore ask women whose mothers took DES if they were hurt; ask the third generation. No one really knows until it is too late. (seventy-eight years)

http://www.cdc.gov/DES/consumers/res...offspring.html
post #13 of 87
This is what I said in its entirety:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
This is the reason why I believe taking back our births is so important. I actually don't think epidurals have major effect on babies (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point). The point is that even IF individual interventions are relatively harmless, it is the culture of dependence on and control by the medical establishment that is so harmful.
I know many women who've given birth and opted for epidurals, and I don't like that it is yet another source of guilt for mamas disproportionate with its actual effects. Nobody I know has had a baby suffer any short-term or long-term noticeable effects from the epi, and yet many of my friends feel like for "caving" and getting it.

I don't think saying "you must give birth 100% naturally, without any medical intervention" is the answer. I think it would be nice if interventions were provided when desired or necessary, and more focus was placed on offering choice, support, and power to women when we birth. And I wish epidurals didn't come wrapped in with all the woman-hating garbage of the medical establishment.
post #14 of 87
I think this is sometimes true, but it hasn't been my personal experience. My doctor for years was the doctor who delivered me. He was a GP, but also did obstetrics. He quit obstetrics, because he got burned out on the deliveries that didn't go well. He and my next doctor (also male) did most of the paps I've ever had done, and only one or two of them hurt...my first one did, but I think that's because I was tense.

My current doctor is my GP's wife. He quit obstetrics, and she hasn't, so I go to her for prenatal care. I actually find she's rougher with pap tests than her husband is. So, I think it depends.

As for my OB/GYN...he seems to be a really good guy. My sister saw him at one point, and she says he got into the field years ago because his mother had serious "female problems" when he was young, and I believe ended up having a hysterectomy. He didn't want to see that happening to other women, so he went into obstetrics and gynecology. Maybe I've been unusually lucky - I certainly haven't been through the kind of experiences you ladies are all describing!! (My doctors do use the paper sheet, but they're very good about keeping me covered.)
post #15 of 87
gah! ... hence, why i "fired" my OB and had a freebirth.

i now have my paps & birth control stuff done with a female physician's assistant at my family practice.

i think you have a huge point.
post #16 of 87
I never thought about the cutting womans bodies/misogynist aspect and now that I do....yikes *shiver*!
I think it was thismama who commented on "taking back birth". How sad that we've given it up in the first place. That we listen to people who tell us that we are not enough, our bodies, our instincts, our milk is not enough.
We are no longer taught to trust ourselves, only "the professionals", who really are just people, trying to figure things out (and do a piss poor job in some areas).
For instance, why is it assumed that the male sex organ is designed to expand and stretch and then resume it's "relaxed' state but a woman's is not? Why 'must' our genitals be cut. I guess Mother Nature wasn't paying attention the day she made us!

It makes me want to spit. :
post #17 of 87
SaraJane, loved your post, my feelings exactly on male obs. Even before I had my first child and didn't know about midwives natural birth etc. I just had a instinct of I want a female dr. I don't want a guy, why would I want a guy for female things.

Kim Ann
post #18 of 87
obstetrics is for people who want to do surgery, but yet they don't want to be "surgeons" per se - it's a highly surgical field.

I'm always amazed that people don't get that OBs are first and foremost, SURGEONS. to destroy something so you have to surgically piece it back together makes sense if you're a surgeon.

If you don't want to be cut, don't hire a surgeon.
post #19 of 87
Thanks. And I was just sitting here thinking. Why do they have to feel your breasts anyway? I mean, they don't feel for very long, they don't feel all that hard or anything. I know what my breasts feel like and the chance of them finding something wierd is very small with the way they check (well, the way I have been checked at least). I would think I have a better chance of noticing something out of the ordinary with my own breasts than any doctor would. I carry them around all day and wash them in the shower and do self exams sometimes. I would notice lumps and things much easier than they would. Know what I'm saying?
post #20 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamamidwife
If you don't want to be cut, don't hire a surgeon.
As in if you do not like to be bit, stay away from snakes?
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