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Sexism and our sons - Page 5

post #81 of 105
My english is not good/advanced enough for me to participate in this discussion.. I know exactly what I want to say, but not quite how to say it.. :LOL

Soooo, I will just say THANK YOU to Asherah and Marsupialmom for writing everything I feel and think about this topic. Amazing posts, ladies!
post #82 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb123
The reason for the "making excuses" remark was from the part where she said her Dad beat her Mom, but not his new wife, because now he feels "safe" It came off as "it's ok, he had a reason" to me.
I absolutely believe that violent, predatory, and abusive men are developed. And I absolutely agree that it is a feminist issue.
First you learned to quote!!!! WOO HOO!!! LOL

You need to understand my father's journey to feeling safe. It was not my step-mom’s doing it was his own doing but with the help of his wife. The for most thing she did was NOT PUT UP WITH IT. She put him in the position of having to figure out his problems and supported him. She in this process learned how to deal with her own demons. They learned how their fears controlled many of the negative behaviors. She learned to fight fair, this does not mean walk on egg shells but argue fairly. Their marriage is not perfect, but we are all imperfect people. It was not like my step-mom came in and puff everything was ok, it was a long journey. It was dealing with issues and understanding were his fears and actions were coming from. This is because my step-mom is not abusive like my mom is.

My father was very wrong for beating there is no excuse for it, he is very sorry about his behavior. At the same time you have to understand that as physically abusive my father was my mom was emotionally abusive and manipulative (actually at times I do wonder if she wasn’t the more abusive person). She could not beat him with fist but she could beat the hell out of him with her words and actions. At one point in time I thought this was just symptoms of being a battered wife, then I had my son and grew to see my mom in a different light. I have started questioning her behavior and things that happen. My mom is still an emotional abuser and manipulator. Neither abuse is right both leave deep and ever lasting scars. I can see my mom’s fears and insecurities now. I can see how unsafe she feels(now and then) but she needs to take responsibility for her actions and quit blaming other people. At a 31 year old woman looking back into my parents marriage they are both at fault for it all. There is just too much to try to blame it all on my father.
post #83 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
There is just too much to try to blame it all on my father.
I'm SURE there is. So many families live with that kind of disfunction. It's nice to hear when someone can work on their sh*t and get out of it, and change their behavior as your father has.
post #84 of 105
I have a small fetal boy living in me right now who NEVER seems to stop moving so right now, it feels like he and I are living in a little secret world where I know he thinks and feels and exists right now.

And I can't help thinking of a night 6 years ago when his father and I were lying in bed together and he was in the depths of a very deep clinical depression. I asked him to tell me about the saddest day he remembered in his life because this was one of those times when he needed someone to stay "down" with him, not to try to "pull him up."

He told me about his grandfather's funeral. His grandfather did not have a "good" death and he felt tremendous guilt over that. He was in medical school at the time and so angry about how dumb the system around death is in the U.S., how stupid people are about death in this country (even very smart people who just seem to get into their 50s thinking death is NEVER going to visit them personally and therefore never needs to be dealt with).

Anyway, he was standing over his grandfather's casket and a few tears came to his eyes. His father came up to him and said, "Hey, buck up kid. We don't cry, remember?"

DH is named for his grandfather. His grandfather was there for every significant event of his life. It washis grandfather that DH went to to open the letter about whether or not he got into medical school.

His death demanded its tears and DH was not allowed to shed them. Even now, although he feels things deeply it is incredibly difficult for him to cry. Every time I find him holding our daughter and marveling at her with tears streaming down his face, I rejoice that he has allowed himself one way to get those tears out.

I want my daughter to have the freedom to get PISSED at this world. And I want my son to have the freedom to mourn.

Jen
post #85 of 105
What a moving story, Jen. It brought tears to my eyes just reading it.

That must have been so, so hard for you DH..
post #86 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
I do think we need to compare the pain and consider the pain our boys are going through. This pain is what they carry into adulthood. Us not tending to boys pain is why we have men than cannot deal with their pain.
I agree with that.

Quote:
This pain is why more men are sexual predators. This pain leads to more men being killed and to kill. This pain is why men are 4 more times likely to commit suicide.
I don't quite agree with that...I think men have been allowed to get away with these behaviors for centuries, so haven't really bothered to learn other ways to deal with pain. That, and they don't want to be "sissies", you know?

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Most feminist talk just about violence against women. All though I think it is important to address these issues we also need to address the issue of violence against men.
Well yes; I would guess the thinking was, women are victims of violence by men. The law doesn't care. We as women have to take our limited resources and try to STOP this violence against us. I do believe that as times change, as more resources and knowledge becomes available, women are doing more to address mens violence in general. Do you understand the timeline here?

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Men do no only feel they don’t measure up to other men, but very importantly they worry about measuring up to women. So it is not just as simple as changing male society (patriarchy). We also have to change women and what they expect from men.
Who exactly set up this system? It wasn't women. If women couldn't even hold a job (!!!), or couldnt' get a job that would allow them to survive, of course they had to find a man to support them!

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Overwhelming amount of females still expect the guys to pay for the date to be at least financially superior (or have potential for financial superiority over other males).
Maybe because men generally make more than women?

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If you look in high schools females are more likely to give attention to males that prove their superiority by sport/competitions or financially. We need to help our daughter not get hooked into looking at the physical and financial potentials (superiority) of males because it sets the expectation on males to perform and isolate their selves in what is or modern patriarchy. We have to guide our boys through the girls that reject them because they are the sensitive guys, nerds, et. I think we all understand rejection. I think society has over looked male rejection and how it affect males for the long term. How it makes them insecure, lonely, isolated, and depressed.
Yep, there are two sides to that coin.





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A grown man will more often not win custody of children for the sole fact he is male. Males are told in court they cannot possibly raise their daughters. But you don’t hear this towards females not being able to raise their sons. Custodial mothers have more power to get a dead beat dad than a custodial fathers.
This may have been true in the past, but it's certainly not true now. Men who want custody generally get it, regardless of other issues.

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Try to be a custodial father and get WIC. WIC’s system can be very sexist.
I have no experience here, and have heard no anecdotes.



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Males are expected to give their life for our safety and protection, the existence of a draft is a perfect example of sexism against males. If a male does not register he can be thrown in jail, denied federal monies for grants, drivers license, federal jobs, et. If there was a draft that did this against only women we would say it is sexist. For women to be truly empowered we need to be held to the same accountability. I personally would like to see draft registration system completely demolished but the point is it is sexist to only have one sex accountable this way.
I disagree with you here, women have fought for decades for the right to fight in the military. The fact that men can be drafted and women can't, at this point, is a government issue. And I do agree with you in that I don't think there should be a draft anyway.

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There is sexism in how males often choose jobs. Males are expected to provide for their families. This forces males to take jobs that are more likely to kill them. We acknowledge the sexism in low paying jobs for females but what about the sexism in men being more likely to die on the job supporting his family.
I think this is acknowledged. There are women who want those jobs, but can't get them; or are harassed off the job.

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We talk about the sexism in pharmaceutical/medical about not studying women but what about the sexism that men are/were expected to be the guinea pigs of science? Or the sexism of funding for studying cancers. Males are far more likely to die from prostate cancer than females of breast cancer but breast cancer research is funded more. The sexism of allowing circumcision. It was mention about women’s body being at hostage what about our little males? Males are still likely to die at least 7 years younger than woman, yet nobody is up in arms about this (I am very disturbed by this because there is racism and sexism against men in this issue.)
This is because for forever, women were never included in studies and were being prescribed medications based on how they affected men. Womens diseases were ignored, so women fought to have them funded.
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Males are more likely not be taught about testicular cancer self checks. Media teaches females about breast self checks but we ignore our males need to learn about testicular self checks Why is a female breast exam any more important? This ignoring and ignorance is caused by sexism against men.
Actually, i've seen several ads directed AT WOMEN to have their men perform those self checks. Why do you think that is? Maybe men are embarassed by it? Maybe women are supposed to be responsible for their spouses? I don't know. I do see this issue coming to the forefront though, which can only be a good thing.

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Society has been addressing sexism in schools against females but what about males? There is enough brain science that proves the brain differences between males and females. This affects learning. Young males are biologically slower than females when it comes to skills of writing and reading yet these issues have not been addressed? Why because it is against little males. We talk about female science and math deficiencies in schools but were is the mentioning of male deficiencies in reading and writing? It is not being mention because it is a male issue, ignoring an issue because of it being just a male issue is a form of sexism.
Yes, it should be addressed. I think maybe it wasn't before because being male automatically meant you got the better opportunities, better jobs, in the end. That may be changing.

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We are empowering females against date rape. We are working hard against sexploitation of girls but what about our boys? Our society makes it ok for young teen males to have sex with older woman. They are gaining experience we do not acknowledge the fact how this can harm them. That is wrong, and it is a sexist view.
I see this attitude changing, thankfully. It's disgusting.

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I see sexism like racism a river flowing in all directions. Until we address all the issues and empower all the people then we will truly have a better society. It is not just as simple as looking at the wrongs against one sex. It is not just looking about the wrongs caused by one sex. Nor is it as simple as looking at the wrongs against males. It is many issues that are deeply intertwine with each other.
Yes, I agree with you here. As I mentioned earlier, do you see how, with very limited resources, women had to evaluate what hurt them the most and concentrate on that? I have to add that if men think they are so victimized, they need to step up to the plate and do something as well. It's not fair to expect women to do it for them.

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I think many feminist fail to see how males need to be empowered. They need to be empowered to show emotions. They need to be empowered to say no I want to be a family man and put them first. They need to feel safe, like women need to feel safe. I think understanding male fear will help us make change. I think understanding how males feel pressure to perform by females and other males will help us understand why so many males are angry, violent, and suicidal.
I agree. and I think feminism does recognize this. If people would stop sucking up and believing what Rush and O'Reilly say about feminism, and see where it's really at, they would see that this is happening.
post #87 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
Most feminist talk just about violence against women. All though I think it is important to address these issues we also need to address the issue of violence against men. Men are killing men at higher rates than women. I think it we can crack into the clues against male on male violence we will have a major break through against violence on women. Our sons are more likely to be killed by another male than our daughters.
It is true that our sons are more likely to be killed by another male -- but our daughters are more likely to be killed their husbands or boyfriends than anyone else. This is why feminists focus on violence against women.

More men are killed than women overall because they choose to engage in activities that carry a risk of death (mostly, drug use and dealing). I really fail to see why feminists should care about men's violence against other men.

I do understand one of your more general points, I think -- there are so many ways that our culture demeans, shames, and creates other negative feelings in men. However-- while I am sympathetic towards anyone that has any of these feelings, I believe that it is an individual's choice what they choose to do with these feelings. So if an emotionally wounded man abused by his wife uses his fists to strike back at her or anybody else-- sorry, he's just as much of an abuser as anyone else. While I support cultural changes and individuals struggling with their emotional pain (and believe men are entitled to this just like women are), I believe that once you use your pain as an excuse to hurt others, you lose my sympathy and I will argue to my death that you should be held accountable for your actions.

Karla
post #88 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifetapestry
More men are killed than women overall because they choose to engage in activities that carry a risk of death (mostly, drug use and dealing). I really fail to see why feminists should care about men's violence against other men.
Because these violent men are going to be the ones killing, beating, hurting our daughters. They is why we should care plus they are HUMAN.

I am going back to my slavery example earlier. Maybe people should just let slaves stand up for themselves. Maybe we should have just let the sixty’s equal rights happen completely with out white people help. Maybe we should just let people in third world countries starve and die at hands of dictators until they realize and stand up for themselves.
post #89 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
Maybe we should have just let the sixty’s equal rights happen completely with out white people help. Maybe we should just let people in third world countries starve and die at hands of dictators until they realize and stand up for themselves.
I guess that's another point I meant to make and forgot. Men have NOT embraced feminism. They have not. It's a fight women have fought on their own...

I see a lot of care in the feminist movement, and as I said before, if men think they've been given the short end of the stick, they need to stand up too and not expect women to do all the work.
post #90 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
Because these violent men are going to be the ones killing, beating, hurting our daughters. They is why we should care plus they are HUMAN.

I am going back to my slavery example earlier. Maybe people should just let slaves stand up for themselves. Maybe we should have just let the sixty’s equal rights happen completely with out white people help. Maybe we should just let people in third world countries starve and die at hands of dictators until they realize and stand up for themselves.
Um, you need to educate yourself about domestic violence. Domestic violence perpetrators come from all walks of life, not just generally violent men. Focusing on helping men who are generally violent will leave most of the batterers unattended to.

And what you are missing in your slavery example and related ones is that those groups of people were/are being oppressed. They lack economic, political, and social power-- and, in that way, are pretty much the opposite of generally violent men. It is women who are battered who are the oppressed ones, not men who batter. That is why I do not believe feminists should care about violent men-- because they are choosing to oppress others with their violence. No matter what personal pain may drive their choices to be violent, it is the bottom line--it's their choice. They are NOT victims.

You've got it turned around, I think.

Karla
post #91 of 105
I thought about my comments all day yesterday. I typed off right before I rain off to work, it was haste. I did think all day what I type did not say what I meant. So forgive me on that. I am not stupid I know domestic violence reach a cross all social economic factors but why? What causes all these men to do this? Do you honestly think it just because of the Patriarchal system we have? A violent person is a violent person.

I do think we need to care about violent men because their violent acts are killing our children’s fathers, brothers, sisters, and mothers. Their actions do affect us. I am going to take it you never held onto your friend after their child, son was shot. Have you ever gone to a friend’s brother’s funeral from from murder? You never held her daughter or a friend because she was slicing her arms up due to the violence around her. They might not have ever been physically hurt by the violence but their hearts bleed deeply. In my junior and senior year I went to 7 funerals for male class mates. I saw all to well how these boys death affected women and myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the sunshine
Yes, I agree with you here. As I mentioned earlier, do you see how, with very limited resources, women had to evaluate what hurt them the most and concentrate on that? I have to add that if men think they are so victimized, they need to step up to the plate and do something as well. It's not fair to expect women to do it for them.
The problem is men that are victimized cannot speak up. Several things happen:

1. Men label them less than worthy, gays, whiners, momma’s boys, et
2. Women label him as a wimp or whiner, or they will say something like “Well so what? Look what women have to go through. Grow up. Deal with it.” Criticized unrepentantly as being heartless and uncaring. This totally devalues them and their feelings.

It is not only men calling men sissy’s but women. If you go into a high school the guy that is less likely to have a girl friend is the “wimp, geek, cry baby” This does not mean we need to ignore the injustices to girls in high school but acknowledge and deal with the injustices of boys that are hurt by not being the strongest/most physically popular. This means we need to step back and teach our daughters it is acceptable for guys to be this way. Guys that deal with it and try to deal with their emotions with tears are outcasted by both sexes.
3. Many men don’t understand their own feelings or understand they are allowed to have those feelings! In another post on rape/sex abuse I mention male rape to plant ideas and to make people think. I did this because I recently had a discussion with a man that was raped (sodomized/molested depending on definitions) and he did not realize it was not his fault. It was not until he saw photos of the Iraq prisoners did he realize or learn that his erections and ejaculations did not mean that he really wanted it. He has spent many years questioning his sexuality and his feelings. He works with teens and it was never taught to him that a male erection and ejaculation does not equal enjoyment.

My dad was/is another example of a man that did not know or understand his feelings. Once he understood what he felt and were it came from did he change. (PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE this does not mean I think it was OK for him to be violent but an understanding to how to stop it in other people.) It also shows how male depression and other mental illnesses are often ignored or not diagnosed. (Health issues also. He was given viagra for prostate cancer).

Many men do not understand why and how isolated they feel and they have not been socialize any differently. They have grown to learn this is how men are, how they feel, and they are wrong for feeling or wanting anything different. You ask a father of a new born if he wishes he could stay home. Most will say yes, but they can’t because they have to work.

Look at how many men that do not know how they are harmed by circumcision? How many men won’t let anyone know that they feel violated and mutilated by it? They are and have been expected to deny the affects of circumcision. Told not to question the system or what it did to them. Look at the strugles and criticism of men that try to restore. How often they are told to get over it by their men and women? They get called and referred to psychs.

How can men step up for themselves when they are afraid to. They are afraid to be seen as “less” than. They are afraid they will be told to shut up and buck up once again. It is hard to admit something might be wrong with you. They are stuck in a system that is abusive to them the same restraints that hold/help women to a certain role holds men to another role.

How can I socialize my son, and all boys to help boys understand their feelings. How can I socialize my children to make it acceptable for boys to show emotions? I need to be careful not to accidentally raise my dds to think a boy that is less physically or financially superior is less and unworthy of their love (actually this goes for both genders). I need to make sure my girls and boy know that women don’t need “Protected” like the Patriarchal system has lead/set us to get accustom to. How they are raised will depend on how they turn out as men. How I raise my daughters will determined who they will choose as husbands what type of man(partners) to accept.

Once when my daughter was about two she was in a sand box with another girl and boy. My daughter hit this little girl and before I could get up and correct my child this other girls mom just laid into this little boy. This mom could not/would not phantom that another girl was mean to her girl. What message does that send to the little boy? What message did it send to the boy when he was not apologized to or emotionally validate? What happens to this boy when this happens year after year? What happens when these little boys get into the school setting and get put on Ritalin because their educational needs are not being met? We have made great strides in girls educations with science and math? But if you mention the fact that boys are behind in reading/language arts you get told so boys do better in science and math many women get stuck on only one part of the statisic? Many people never hear the other parts of the big picturs. If you mention boys drop out of school at higher rates, you get the same answer as so? More females than males plan college or further education, again you get response so, men make more money (totally ignoring most of the higher paying jobs are the worse and most deadliest jobs. I know someone before mention how many women are harassed off the jobs, but men are still socialized that then need to protect women. Kind of a paradox.) We have seen great strides with getting women and ethnic minorities on student governments but in high schools now girls are more involved in student government than boys. What does this unbalance lead to? Why are boys becoming so uninvolved and disengaged in their government and communities? Does this really benefit us all when they no longer care or don’t think they are worthy of them? How do we/society benifit when we hear the boys say why bother they (girls/women) won't listen? Why do they feel this way? I don't think my dds benifit from this nor my son.

My son has been made to feel that it was his fault over and over again. When he has wanted to run in the play ground and I sent him off to an area with no other children, he expected to stop if there is a girl that doesn’t like it. He is except to change his game to fit a girl. The girl cannot run as fast he has been asked to slow down for her. There are times I tell him change the game, because it is appropriate but there are times it is inappropriate for a game to change just because the girl is slower. We are talking about times when the boy/s were at least 3 years older and there are plenty other kids begging the girl to join in their game of tag. My girls have been told they play with boys too much because they are too rough. What message does that send 1. Boys are suppose to be rough. 2. That being rough is bad. I have been left a little dumbfounded when he has left the group to be by himself and have been warn that is anti-social behavior. My son has been told he was mean because he refuse to play with a girl instead of reading a book to himself. I was told he was beign sexist when he stopped reading allowed, never mind his motive was he didn't know this book if this book would be parent approved by her parent. I have had my son been the bad guy for defending his sister when the other little girls were being mean to her. I have had my friends whose sons were put in the same accusing position.

When he was in 1st grade and he had a crush on a little girl it was us that got a talking to more. He was not suppose to hold this girls’ hand. He was not suppose to be affectionate in anyway towards this girl. He was wrong for feeling this way. He was being over sexual. It didn’t matter that she willingly reciprocated. I remember one day this little girl got up in class and kissed my son. When I came to pick him up the teacher talked to me about it. She told me that my son could not be doing this. Then she looked shocked when I asked what he was doing? Sitting in his desk? I asked if she had talked to this girls mom, she said not yet. When I called this girls mom (because we did have an issue of not appropriate behavior not putting haloes on either kids head) The mom was never informed by the school. This happened over-and-over, this other mom only heard half of the story/situation. This girls mom was given the impression that my son was the aggressor. When reality was it was between both children and it was mutual (not all was appropriate behavior). It is hard to explain to your child why it is not ok to kiss a girl or just hold a girls hand but it is ok for two girls to hold hands. It is hard to explain why it is not socially acceptable for him to be friends with this little girl and it was the adults making it unacceptable. He got angry because he was always at fault in the situations. We he got talk to at school he said it was always him that got in trouble. The teacher would scold him and punish him more severly for the same crime (and I believe him because of what I saw personally).

How advance have we gotten when boys don’t want girls on their hockey team because if they fall on them they might touch them and get in trouble? On of our friend is a hockey coach, when they got girls on the team that was the response of the boys when they got question about isolating/ignoring the girls. These boys know the physical ness of this sport. They can fall on each other and they are afraid if they fall on a girl they will be accused of something sexual: in part because this had happen to one of the boys on another team, in part they are still socialize not to hurt girls. How advance are we if a woman is going up a ladder aboard ship is allowed to fall because the guys are afraid of getting accused of sexual harassment for grabbing her butt (same place they would grab a man in this situation)? Why hasn’t the necessary bonds not been made to make ship life functioning? How can we understand these issues if we don’t take time to learn or understand what the men are thinking and feeling when they are in these situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the sunshine
Who exactly set up this system? It wasn't women. If women couldn't even hold a job (!!!), or couldnt' get a job that would allow them to survive, of course they had to find a man to support them!
Have you ever stopped a moment and ever thought about or wonder if women ever benefited by this system? Have you ever thought about why it has lasted for so long? Yes, women paid a crappy price for this system but this system at one time did protect women. It was the men that went off to fight wars, be the slaves/indentured servants, take the physically deadly jobs that protected the women, children, and home. The necessity of this system has LONG been outdated, but a 1000-2000 years ago (or when ever it started) it did serve a purpose called survival and protection. It provide women protection from horrible deadly jobs. Was it ever right?? NO!! THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE SYSTEM RIGHT!!

This idea of women needing protection still comes up. Look at the military and all the lame reasons given why women shouldn’t be in boils down to people being socialize to think women need protection. Men are socialize to think that they need to protect women. We need to ask ourselves how are our men being socialized this what how are we (both genders) teaching these lessons. My dad has been in the military for 31 years. He will tell you that he doesn’t want a woman beside him because he feels obligated to protect her, his wife agree with him because if he is busy protecting a woman he might die. He fought my mom when she went in (mom is retired AF). My mom acknowledge this fact that men felt they needed to protect her, especially after she divorced my father. When I was in, I saw this happening. I saw women benefiting form this and yet being “held back” by this. This most startlingly example was what happened in the motor pool. Women got away with not moving heavy tools, they were protected from this hard work. Yet, they could not understand why the guys didn’t want them there. How their actions of getting the guys to do it also negatively effected them. These women also go very mad when a woman step up to the plate and did the job and “proved” herself (that a girl can do it). I had a traditionally male job. I did quite well at because I made sure I was not letting the guys protect me from part of my job.

Paying for dates: Women are now starting to have more money than men. Yet a guy still has to pay even if a women makes more money. When the tables are turn men still pay. Also, how often do you see a women even date a man lower than her status (or at least have potent ional to be at a higher status)? It is a rarity and people question the guy’s abilities. This sends the message to boys that they need to earn the $$$$ so they can provide these things. So they don’t choose lower paying jobs like teaching. And if they do, they end up in administrative because it pays more. It sends the message that women need to be protected and provided for.

My dh works with a young man (22ish) that is in college. He meet this girl at their job (restaurant) she wouldn’t have anything to do with him, but when she ran into him at Wash U. It was another story. He was not worthy on her attention when she precieved him as poor. Then he was a jerk for not giving her attention when she figured out he has great potential for future money. How does this behavior and expectations effect him later? Why is it shocking that he gets embittered and develops an attitude that women don’t truly care about him unless he is making money? This does not make it right for him to become violent but it is an understanding to how we get from point A to point B. It shows us how we need to change how we socialization our children (not just boys but girls). Why is it socially acceptable for a woman do be this way?

Also about male activism. When a man stands up and argues for equal rights he is called horrible things. He is force to spend more money on getting custody and enforced visitation. Statistic do not support your lady’s argument about men getting custody of children after divorce.

"Ninety percent of divorced fathers have less than full custody of their children." Jonathan M. Honeycutt, Ph.D.(c), M.P.A., M.A., I.P.C. Director of Research, Clinical & Consulting Psychotherapist, National Institute for Divorce Research, Panama City, Florida.

But to look at this situation properly you have to see that fathers are getting JOINT custody of their children and they are spending more money to gain this right.

When you dig into men organization sites and then verify information (which can be difficult at times) you find facts that men are being betrayed wrongly. You hear about how men abuse there kids however, 70 percent of confirmed cases of child abuse and 65 percent of parental murders of children are committed by mothers, not fathers, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. This is cross social economical factors. This is not only happening in homes were their is an abusive man. So when you make this a gender issue you make it a gender divide and it does not help the victims.

I have spent time digging reading into sites I don’t like, reading books I don't care for. Trying to understand the world I must send my children off into. I find myths and statistics that are poorly studied, studies that were not done at all, statistics that were oversimplified then these thoughts/ideas/assumptions became a status quo on how many people think and view the world. Any study that disagrees with a feminist view is often ignored or buried. It is hard to dig into the research to find out if they are valid or not.

If you dare say anything that disagrees with feminist you are criticized and attacked not listen to called a fool. I am trying to stand in the middle between the feminist and the people that would like to see the system completely stay the same (the political “right”). Two poles that actively manipulate the statistics and issues. I see that there are valid points and issue from both sides but we need to listen to the other side. We need to understand so we can help people overcome these feelings.

When society hangs on to one cause of domestic violence blaming completely on the Patriarchal system it totally ignores other issues that could prevent it like mental illness, drug abuse, and alcoholism. It completely ignores issues that statistically lesbian relationships are more violent than gay relationship (why is this? Why don’t you hear of studies that bring this information?) It completely ignores that women can be violent too. Many people give the excuse well a women was trying to protect herself but the studies I have seen this is not always the case. When asked being physically at danger does not always lead to women violence.

When we polarize issues as only male or only female we create a further the “battle of the sexes”.
post #92 of 105
Hey, Marsupialmom,

No one has called you stupid or a fool, but you do have a tendency to misreport information and state facts that are just not accurate. Another example of that is your assertion in your most recent post that lesbian relationships are more violent than hetereosexual or gay relationships. That is absolutely not true, but many people find it hard to believe that the incidence of violence is the SAME whether you are in a gay or straight relationships, regardless of the gender of the parties involved.

I also want to tell you that when you start trotting out experiences you've had such as comforting those who have lost loved ones to violence or the like, you should keep in perspective that if it is an attempt to try to claim authority from them, I start to get agitated because you seem to presume that if only those who see it differently had these experiences, we would see the light. In domestic violence, we call this kind of argument d*ck (not deck, dock or duck btw) sizing, along the lines of "look what I can show you, from what I've seen." I am not really inclined to engage in the same sizing up-- but I can tell you after nearly 20 years of working with victims of domestic violence, with murderers in maximum security prisons and those accused of it outside of it, mine is definitely WAY bigger than yours.

I do think that what I have missed in what you are saying-- and what I think is your main point that should absolutely be acknowledged, is that women are affected deeply by violence that happens to the men in their lives and in our general culture, even if it doesn't physically impact them. You are so right about this, and you are also right that we should "care" about the violence that men suffer and more generally care about how our culture creates emotional pain for men.

Where I disagree with you is probably much less than I originally believed-- I do believe feminists should "care" about male violence against men, but when it comes time to putting resources and raising awareness about violence, there is so much work to be done directly with the female victims of male violence that anything broader can't possibly be accomplished without compromising resources to these oppressed groups. So while I think that feminists can (and do) acknowledge the impact of general violence in our culture, they/we cannot devote resources to addressing it when there are battered women's shelters that need funding, etc.

Lastly, I also want to point out that all the research on domestic violence cannot get a handle on why violence occurs. It is clear that the reasons for it are complex and multi dimensional, and different for different people. I personally think a more productive task is to focus on what has the best chance of stopping it-- in which case the clear answer is holding batterers accountable, through arrest and prosecution and conviction and sentencing, for their violence. And it also seems that many other social problems, from drug abuse to teenage pregnancy to school dropouts are linked to domestic violence. In my mind, if we end domestic violence we will see corresponding drops in other social problems.

Again, I'm sorry if you feel attacked or unduly criticized in this discussion-- but that can happen when people disagree.
Karla
post #93 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifetapestry
Hey, Marsupialmom,

No one has called you stupid or a fool, but you do have a tendency to misreport information and state facts that are just not accurate. Another example of that is your assertion in your most recent post that lesbian relationships are more violent than hetereosexual or gay relationships. That is absolutely not true, but many people find it hard to believe that the incidence of violence is the SAME whether you are in a gay or straight relationships, regardless of the gender of the parties involved.
Karla
Several points You have made are good. I am short on time. I did not say lesbian reltationships are more violent than heterosexual relationship. The statistics I have seen compared gay men to gay/lesibian women. I currently cannot find them becasue I keep on popping up porn sites. Later tonight/tomorrow I will try to find this information when I don't have little eyes around and spend more time on a responce.
post #94 of 105
Unhealthy relationships can happen in any combination.

When it come to the rest, instead of going point by point, I'll just generalize my feelings...

There is a REASON why many are "suspicious" of men in general. It didn't just happen out of the blue. We could look at Ted Bundy and feel sorry for him, but it doesn't change the fact that he murdered lots of women. Excuses are just that, excuses. Much of Marsupialmom's posts sound like denial to me. My first insticts were right. I don't feel sorry for those poor, poor misunderstood abusive men. Not the ones abusing thier wives, not the ones running our country.

If our culture was matriarchal, do you think we'd be where we are today? I THINK NOT!

I agree that when it comes to our children, it is equaly important to empower our sons as it is our daughters, but when it comes to the Big Picture, it's not the men's rights I'll be busting my ass to fight for.
post #95 of 105
Yes. It's bogus to assert that women, the oppressed sex still fighting for equality, should be giving energy to liberate men, who are still by-and-large fighting against feminism.

The patriarchy hurts men too, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's men who are in power in a patriarchy. Being in power gives them an, um, unique opportunity to change the framework of that power, and they need to use that opportunity instead of whining about how hard they have it.

I think there's 2 issues here: boys and adult men. I totally agree that how we raise our sons is a key part of the fight for gender equality. I totally agree that little boys just as much as little girls have the right to be mothered and fathered in a way that frees them from gender stereotypes.

But adult men are not little boys, and when they expect that women work to liberate them, they expect women to fulfil that mothering role they were deprived of as infants and children. It's sad that they didn't have it when they needed it, but it's inappropriate as adults to expect mothering from other adults. Does that make any sense?
post #96 of 105
yes, that makes A LOT of sense, Kristin!


There are many factors that make men violent, abusive, and misogynistic, that are totally in men's control, and have their roots in patriarchal heirarchies and institutions, designed and maintained by men and for men. Like my mom's second physically abusive husband, was severely damaged by Vietnam, and had post traumatic stress disorder, He had many problems. My Mom played the all sacrificing mother role to him for 5 years, always trying to be there for him, always forgiving him, always trying to be helpful- and it didn't help him change, ... she lost five years of her life dealing with a lot of pain, and it was hard on me growing up too.... The problem was created by arrogant white men in power, who could care less about the masses of poor kids they send off to fight their immoral wars for their plans for power and control of resources, and then they could care less that those boys come home violent and screwed up husbands and fathers- why? because the women are there to deal with the mess, like always. Women in no way caused that bastard to be violent, men did.
Men need to be responsible for themselves, and if they would understand history and learn to listen to women and heal themselves, they would be partners in the struggles for humanity, for feminist struggles. They need to meet us half way, we shouldn't feel like we need to go the extra distance...
post #97 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlndocs
But adult men are not little boys, and when they expect that women work to liberate them, they expect women to fulfil that mothering role they were deprived of as infants and children. It's sad that they didn't have it when they needed it, but it's inappropriate as adults to expect mothering from other adults. Does that make any sense?

I see what you're saying Kristin, and for the most part I agree. But I still hate to see ANY child not receive gentle, loving parenting regardless of his or her gender.

And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men. It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL
post #98 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer3141
I see what you're saying Kristin, and for the most part I agree. But I still hate to see ANY child not receive gentle, loving parenting regardless of his or her gender.

And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men. It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL

I think we all agree that ALL children should have the love and care they need regardless of gender.
Adult men need to be held accountable for their actions.
I know many wonderful, supportive, feminist men ( married one), but unfortunately they are not the ones controlling our gov't, major corporations, mass media, etc.... so the circumstances we are living with have a lot of problems that have roots in patriarchy.....
post #99 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by musingmama
They need to meet us half way, we shouldn't feel like we need to go the extra distance.
Yes, exactly! That's what I was trying to describe, but you did it much more concisely.

It's bogus to expect women, who are fighting our own battles still, to go the extra distance for men instead of men working to liberate *themselves*. And it's even more bogus to take chunks out of feminism because it isn't doing the job of liberating men. That's like lumping your blender 'cause it doesn't make toast.

ETA: and don't even get me started on the dynamic I sometimes see of "mean old feminists, making men feel bad".
post #100 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer3141
And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men. It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL
I know some really fabulous men too. I work at an vegetarian restaurant/feminist bookstore owned by radical feminists (from the good 'ol days). I've had the opportunity to meet some really fantastic men there. It is good to see.
I blame the Republicans too...
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