What's wrong with Disney movies? - Page 4

[apmom]

What kind of sick mess is a young girl with a bunch of old dwarfs?

I could go on and on, but I dont have the time right now.
__________________
:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Yemaya1 : 04-19-2005 at 11:03 PM.

I have no idea why, but this comment cracked me up!!!

[Christeeny]

Originally Posted by ~lioneyes~

I totally agree with Lynsage's comments. Disney is a clasic case of commercialism.
I used to spend time with two children ages 10 and 5, and they refused to watch any cartoon movies that were not Disney. To me, Disney is the McDonalds of movies, clothing, toys ect. It is a place many people go, but I would never want to take a child there. This is all my opinion, of course!

You have the right to your opinion. (Not just you lioneyes, everyone ) And I respect that. However, I am a big Disney fan. My DH and I actually met while working at Disneyland, and now we have season passes, and take ds there all the time.
My Ds is only 2, and mainly we go for fun family time and the rides. My son is not one to sit and watch tv for long periods of time, and has yet to watch an entire Disney movie.
I totally love Disney. Yes, there are some awful stereotypes, and other issues that have been brought up here in this thread. And when ds is old enough, I will discuss this stuff with him.
What about the Disney Channel? Particularly, the playhouse shows. Like JoJo's Circus, Bear in the Big Blue House, and even the Wiggles. (Which I know is not Disney owned, but still)
My family is a Disney family, and we are proud of it. IMO as long as you don't become too involved with the storylines of the movies, and just enjoy them as entertainment. I don't see the harm. I don't think that my son is going to grow up 'poisoned' by Disney movies.
But hey, we all do what we feel is best for our kids. And if banning Disney products is something you feel strongly about, than more power to you. I respect your choices to parent your children the way you choose.

[LadyMarmalade]

The Uses of Enchantment by Bruno Bettleheim ( I think I spelled his last name correctly) is a good read.

Eeeek! Bettelheim (you just need to swap the L and E) plagiarised most of his work! He wasn't a qualified psychologist, and he was a child abuser. Please take 99% of whatever he says with a fistful of salt.

http://www.famousplagiarists.com/sci...htm#bettelheim

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/068...lance&n=283155

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bettelheim

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/vie...egacy%20Online

In 1976, the very year when the Sunday Times exposed the fraudulence of Sir Cyril Burt, Bruno Bettelheim (an immigrant from Austria who boasted of a heroic past as a resistance fighter) published his bestselling book The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales,produced with one of the lucrative grants he obtained. Bettelheim made himself famous as the foremost authority on childhood autism, and operator of the private Orthogenic School for severely disturbed children in Chicago. Bettelheim stressed the authenticity of exact story details that developed "through the centuries (if not the millennia) during which, in their retelling, fairytales became ever more refined." In light of the fact that he focused upon tales from the Brothers Grimm, which were faked and "refined"at one fell swoop in the 1800s, the authenticity of the allegedly meaningful details evaporates. Now the authenticity of Bettelheim has evaporated also.

After his death in 1990 a professor of anthropology at the University of Berkeley sadly announced that The Uses of Enchantment was copied from a 1963 book titled A Psychiatric Study of Fairy Tales. Bettelheim was a plagiarist and, worse yet, no psychiatrist. He was an imposter. After his death, it came out that he was a child-abuser. He claimed, "As an educator and therapist of severely disturbed children, my main task was to restore meaning to their lives." To the contrary, he misdiagnosed normal children as mentally disturbed in order to claim later that he had cured them. Bettelheim vindictively blamed autism on bad mothering (a cruellie). All that desperate parents got for trusting this slick predator with their children and their money was false guilt and true grief; yet he remained a venerated celebrity in his lifetime. As autism expert Bernard Rimlandhas observed grimly, "He will not be missed."

I'd recommend Jack Zipes as a great author if you want to look further into fairy tale study.

[lisalou]

Originally Posted by Christeeny

My family is a Disney family, and we are proud of it. IMO as long as you don't become too involved with the storylines of the movies, and just enjoy them as entertainment. I don't see the harm. I don't think that my son is going to grow up 'poisoned' by Disney movies.

But isn't part of entertainment getting involved in the story lines? I sat in on a class of stereotypes and mass media. The professor asked students to tell him the first thing that came into his head when he said the word, "Muslim". Students said dark skinned, turbans, terrorists, etc., etc. Then he showed scenes from Aladdin, what did the bad guys look like? The stereotype the students came up with for Muslims. I certainly wouldn't say that Disney is the only one who does this by any stretch. But I do think you need to be careful with the idea that you don't read into things when it's just harmless entertainment.

My real problem with Disney movies is just the dumbing down from the original story.

[johub]

Originally Posted by lisalou

But isn't part of entertainment getting involved in the story lines? I sat in on a class of stereotypes and mass media. The professor asked students to tell him the first thing that came into his head when he said the word, "Muslim". Students said dark skinned, turbans, terrorists, etc., etc. Then he showed scenes from Aladdin, what did the bad guys look like? The stereotype the students came up with for Muslims. I certainly wouldn't say that Disney is the only one who does this by any stretch. But I do think you need to be careful with the idea that you don't read into things when it's just harmless entertainment.

My real problem with Disney movies is just the dumbing down from the original story.

But this is not an issue with Disney, but with all media and transfer and dumming down of information and the fact that the human brain has a limit to how many variables and details it can notice at any given time.
While we all know very well that all Moslems are not Arab and not all Arabs are terrorists.
It is not Disney's fault that most Moslem terrorists are also of Arabian ancestry? It is not any more Disney's fault than CNN's.
I agree that Disney movies carry on and perpetuate the stereotypes and biases that permeate our society. But only because Disney does not exist in a vacuum and it reflects our society. As does all other media.
They create a product for people who already think the same way the writers and producers think.
It is our jobs as parents to help our children judge media and information critically. But boycotting Disney alone would not reduce these messages, because they are everywhere and in every thing. Disney is only one example of these things that are prevalent in all media.
The same goes true for the labor examples above.
Disney may be one known group which purchases goods from such sweatshops. But the truth is that just about any cheap article of clothign or toy etc. . whether it has the Disney logo or not was manufactured in those same sweatshops. The only way to know if your product is not is to research the actual manufacturer.
So refusing to purchase Disney items because of the Sweatshops only works if you do not purchase other comparable items instead without checkign their place of origin.
My children are growng up in this society and culture. And keeping Disney away from them is not going to immunize them in any way against the ideas my culture holds that I do not agree with.

[lisalou]

Dumbing down from the original story - I mean what they did to Mary Poppins, Beauty and the Beast (the Jean Cocteau version), Peter Pan, etc., etc. compared to their original text. That's my problem with Disney.

I certainly agree that the attempt or concept of keeping people in easily definable groups is done by far more than Disney and thus is not actually a good reason for not watching Disney movies. I do think that you can't just discount it as harmless entertainment since it does reinforce stereotypes.

[johub]

Originally Posted by lisalou

Dumbing down from the original story - I mean what they did to Mary Poppins, Beauty and the Beast (the Jean Cocteau version), Peter Pan, etc., etc. compared to their original text. That's my problem with Disney.

I certainly agree that the attempt or concept of keeping people in easily definable groups is done by far more than Disney and thus is not actually a good reason for not watching Disney movies. I do think that you can't just discount it as harmless entertainment since it does reinforce stereotypes.

Yes but all Entertainment was written by humans and most humans have subconscious biases. No Entertainment is "harmless entertainment" because it all reinforces stereotypes. It would be next to impossible to find any entertainment at all that did nto contain stereotypes. Even the greatest of all literature is full of stereotypes and archetypes.
The only way to get around it is to not consume packaged entertainment (meaning, movies, tv, books, stories, the news, newspapers, magazines, classic literature)

[Christeeny]

Originally Posted by lisalou

But isn't part of entertainment getting involved in the story lines? I sat in on a class of stereotypes and mass media. The professor asked students to tell him the first thing that came into his head when he said the word, "Muslim". Students said dark skinned, turbans, terrorists, etc., etc. Then he showed scenes from Aladdin, what did the bad guys look like? The stereotype the students came up with for Muslims. I certainly wouldn't say that Disney is the only one who does this by any stretch. But I do think you need to be careful with the idea that you don't read into things when it's just harmless entertainment.

My real problem with Disney movies is just the dumbing down from the original story.

Well all I can say to that is that you have a very good point.
And yes, they do dumb down alot of the original stories.

[swimswamswum]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but. . .
I have two major beefs with Disney:

1) the ways it markets to kids
I think that marketing to children should be illegal and Disney and McDonald's are the absolute worst. The cross marketing that happens between them is terrible! They bombard commercials with what ever the newest character is and flood stores with all kinds of junk until the stuff from the last movie is obsolete. It makes kids always want more and beg for food and toys that are unhealthy for them (and the toys are probably made by children in other countries).

2) the ways in which women and girls are (usually) portrayed
Almost every Disney movie involves a dead mother (so disturbing!). There are only princesses and witches- not many other women are shown. Most of the girls (with the exception of Mulan) are skinny, show way too much tummy and are head over heals for some guy who ultimately "completes them". What kind of message does that send to our girls? Why do they need men to complete them? Why does the prince charming myth need to be taught to girls? The whole princess thing really drives consumer culture too.

[swimswamswum]

I also agree with those of you who pointed out the racism in a lot of the films. I totally agree that it is time for a black princess who isn't just Belle with darker skin (the way Jasmine was).

[lisalou]

Originally Posted by johub

Yes but all Entertainment was written by humans and most humans have subconscious biases. No Entertainment is "harmless entertainment" because it all reinforces stereotypes. It would be next to impossible to find any entertainment at all that did nto contain stereotypes. Even the greatest of all literature is full of stereotypes and archetypes.
The only way to get around it is to not consume packaged entertainment (meaning, movies, tv, books, stories, the news, newspapers, magazines, classic literature)

So we agree, right?

[JesseMomme]

I grew up watching disney movies new and old and feel quite aware of the subtle and overt stereotypes, racist images, etc that are there. Disney isn't the only perpetuator, and they aren't the inventor of all the plot moving devices either. That sounds a lot like "I watched disney and I'm fine!", no, I watched disney stuff and I also personally sought to become as aware of of the world as I could when I was older - rewatching movies as a teen and as an adult, a lot of it is suddenly obvious. Peter Pan and Dumbo is a real biggie in my mind.

I would of course respect any parent's choice to not have their children watch Disney or any other thing they don't want their children to watch.

My biggest problem is the mass marketing. uke: The logos and characters on shirts, the fast food toys, the sheer number of regular toys, ugh drives me bananas. My "princess" will NOT be wearing pink frilly disney princess crap, especially if there's a good chance it was sweatshop labor that created it. The items are tacky, ugly...Sesame St. products aren't much better (hello dancing Elmo) but, I don't mind the kids watching Sesame st. (I yearn for old school Sesame Street however!) eh, I am a hypocrite here b/c we do have a lot of Star Wars stuff. (Luke, loses both his parents at birth and his adoptive parents at 15 and the story begins )

I do have a big mickeymouse sweatshirt that I hate but I wear it b/c it's the only thing that fits and covers my behind and it was a handmedown... :

Meandering here...we've gotten more TV free in the past year, and even more so when PBS stopped coming in with the antennea. I stopped saturday morning cartoons a while ago b/c the commercials in between were affecting my kids and it drove me nuts.

ETA _ I forgot , we do have a handful of Disney movies and actually the kids don't really care about watching them at all. I think Dh and I have most of them out of pure nostolgia.
Oh, I love Mulan though, can someone tell me why THAT one is racist? (thinking) Is it the "large brute, dark, evil eyed" bad guys?

[johub]

Originally Posted by JesseMomme

Oh, I love Mulan though, can someone tell me why THAT one is racist? (thinking) Is it the "large brute, dark, evil eyed" bad guys?

Yeah I dont see any racism in Mulan either.
And while I saw racism in Pocahontas I really thought it was because the message was supposed to be against racism (so there had to be racists in the story to be made to look wrong and uninformed)

My husband calls me "Oblivoline" because I am habitually oblivious and see the world through rose colored glasses.
Maybe that is why Disney and I get along just fine.

[JesseMomme]

Ohhh and I also think Disney is long over due for a strong AA hero or herione.

And forgot to mention Lilo and Stitch - Nani is by no means a stick with boobs.

[JesseMomme]

Originally Posted by johub

Yeah I dont see any racism in Mulan either.
And while I saw racism in Pocahontas I really thought it was because the message was supposed to be against racism (so there had to be racists in the story to be made to look wrong and uninformed)

My husband calls me "Oblivoline" because I am habitually oblivious and see the world through rose colored glasses.
Maybe that is why Disney and I get along just fine.

Good point about Pocohontas (I've never seen that one - I remember it came out when I was in high school and my friends would joke "Poke-a-ho" b/c of her scant attire).

My Dh likes to tell me that sarcasm is a foriegn language to my ears.

[greenmama_1963]

Disney Movies

I like some movies from Disney, but please answer me- Where are all the African- American heroes and heroines in these features??? Please tell me!!!!

[JesseMomme]

Originally Posted by greenmama_1963

I like some movies from Disney, but please answer me- Where are all the African- American heroes and heroines in these features??? Please tell me!!!!

There's none...making progress I think has been Lilo and Stitch (lower class, Native characters), Mulan (Chinese), Lion King has African American actors doing voices although the characters themselves are animals. Don't even try to watch Dumbo if you want something positive to see.

[KaraBoo]

If you don't like your children knowing a "dumbed down" version of a story, introduce them to the original story. (MANY movies you see are not the same as the original idea/story.)

I was anti-Disney for many many years. I'm not any longer. I've even been to Disneyland (paris), which is something I thought I'd never do. And I had fun there I allowed Disney into our home a few years ago and even after changing my mind about it, I STILL had a hard time with the Pocahontas movie. It's only been in the last year that I finally bought the movie...I had a block about that one, moreso than any other. Finally, I told my dd all I knew about the real woman and history and looked online for the rest. I felt I did what I could to help her see that Disney was going to distort the truth and turn it into something else. After watching the movie, I think she sees it not as a True Story but as entertainment. And that's what it is for us. I'd never look to a Disney film to give me historical background and FACTS.

We talk a lot in our family. We also looooove movies. Therefore, we talk a lot about movies LOL We talk about where the idea for the movie came from, the way it's filmed, what the director is trying to make us feel when we watch it, what the colors/costumes/characters might represent, etc. Of course sometimes, we just want to sit and enjoy a movie without talking about it. What I'm getting at is that you can boycott Disney if you like. But you can also choose to let your child see one of the movies and talk about what you don't like about it. There are many ways to deal with not liking Disney and what it stands for.

[meco]

KaraBoo, I respect the fact that you made a decision for your family and lifted your ban, but despite this, I still will not be accepting of Disney any time soon and I think others should also stand by their beliefs. I know I am sticking by mine as Disney violates many of my ideals and beliefs repeatedly.

The thing you are neglecting to mention is Disney as a company--who they are, what they support, what kind of business they run. I do not boycott them simply because of they aggressively market their racist, prejudiced, misogynistic, stereotypical movies, clothes and toys to my son. In addition to this, we do not support Disney because they market this image to all kids (and unfortunately not every single parents can or will explain the truth and details of every movie. I am guessing less do than more.) everywhere and because of their aggressive marketing of cheap, licensed tie ins everywhere.

The biggest issue I have with them is that they promote and profit from child labor, slave labor and long since been accused of many human rights abuses in many countries. Serious offenses. I simply cannot support a company with this horrific track record.
http://www.salon.com/may97/media/media970529
http://www.hrw.org/about/initiatives/corp.html
http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/shahmakhdum/
http://www.geocities.com/cslnews/arc...ney_world2.htm
http://www.pineight.com/nemo/

This is just a start. I could go on and on.

I am not worried about my son's impression and interpretation of the films because we talk about and value thinking for yourself, never believing everything you see/read/here, researching info, perspective. He knows movies are not real, that they are someone's interpretation of something. But the subtle messages and impact are harder to see and harder to address. Sometimes discussing issues will overlook something or not fully refute a falsity.

Simply put--everything is wrong with them IMO. I consider them the Wal Mart (and no I do not shop there) of child media consumerism, and I refuse to support their company in any way, shape or form. And I hope the others who do so do not lose sight of this.

The off base, stereotypical content of the movies is the tip for me (especially since I usually do not censor things based solely on content). And when my son is interested in Pocahontas, I will be buying an intelligent, truthful film or book for him to learn or I will be giving him access to the info he needs. As for entertainment, I do not necessarily think my son needs entertainment in the form of TV all the time. But if he does, there are so many wonderfully made movies (not to mention better quality clothes and toys not made by kids) for children that there really is no reason to support Disney.

http://www.cultureforkids.com/ is one of our favorites.

[alexsam]

We are tv-free, so most of the movie stuff is a "non-issue" for us, but Disney is bigger than that.


The thing that gets me most (as well as others who have posted and have said it much better than I am about to!) is the machine. The fact that the movie is like a 2 hour commercial for the products. Everything from toys to party themes to lunch boxes to clothing. Of course, logic says that you don't HAVE to buy anything and you can still see the movie, but the Disney promotion is everywhere you turn and it is virtually impossible to avoid it. The theme song is is even on the radio! And that grind- that mass media presentation- just seems to make everything bland, flashy, abbreviated somehow. Drained. It's just too big. Like, the Wiggles. When they were a fun little Australian gig with creative songs and a silly-fun presentation, it had a feeling of being genuine. A find. A slice of someone's creativity. Now that they are "Disneyfied", they have really lost something when everywhere you go it's Wiggles dolls, videos, on floats, tv shows, parties themes, clothing, etc. It's like another thing that you must "collect" for your child to assure them a happy childhood. Bah.