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UC article in FL newspaper - Page 3

post #41 of 132
6/3/06 at 2:06am

Actually Florida Law is amazingly clear

It is VERY legal there to have an unassisted birth. But I guess what that means is no "half midwives". I am sure if all they had done, is come to comfort and support her they would not be on trial. I am not an unassisted birth supporter but there is a certain logic in leaving the mother to decide if something is wrong rather than relying on a "sort of midwife". Certainly in this case I suspect the mom would have made the lifesaving call if they had not been doing all these other weird treatments and telling her things were ok. Better not to pretend to have expertise you don't have.

What do you think?

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post #42 of 132
6/3/06 at 2:19am

good question

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
I am not just defending them, but the many mothers who give birth without midwives or Western Medicine.

If what they did was so wrong/illegal, why weren't they charged the first time the same mother gave birth?

One of the trial pundits wanted to do the trial without letting the jury know the outcome had been the mother's death. My take on it is in Florida they take their civil liberties seriously and generally look the other way. But when the mother died it was time to enforce that law. I actually lived in Miami and know some of the original midwives who worked to get the licensure in place. This sort of thing was debated. Many felt that it was better not to legislate midwives at all for the reasons you speak of. I think however, the laws in Florida are good, because women now really do have access to home birth with qualified midwives.

They also might have done better at trial had they not decided to do DIY lawyering. But I think convicting them, and a max sentence, is just.
post #43 of 132
6/3/06 at 2:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabearing
They also might have done better at trial had they not decided to do DIY lawyering.
ITA. I have no idea why they went to trial without a lawyer. It does seem to imply they get 'something' from acting as 'professionals' that they are not.

I really think no one should be held accountable for the death of the mother.
Why is it okay to believe Western medicine would have saved her life, when the fact is 95,000 people die at the hands of Western Medicine every year?
post #44 of 132
6/3/06 at 3:11am

you got me there

:

I really think no one should be held accountable for the death of the mother.
Why is it okay to believe Western medicine would have saved her life, when the fact is 95,000 people die at the hands of Western Medicine every year?[/QUOTE]

She might have gone to the hospital, gotten in a car accident on the way and died.

She might have gone to the hospital and they made a mistake and gave her the wrong blood type and she died.

But I think the odds of anything but her living if she had been sent quickly are slim.

I am obviously coming from a brainwashed Medical Model here of the Evil West...I'm thinking you just don't want to see birth legislated in any way. I am pretty mainstream in my choices, I like to read about all the alternatives but I tend to choose the mainstream approach to most medical issues ( not always, but mostly ) I guess. But I have enjoyed talking to you about the case. It is fascincating.
post #45 of 132
6/3/06 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
So, it is only okay to assist at a birth if you have been trained by the Midwifery association?
Why do ppl believe Western Medicine is the only medicine?
Why do ppl believe Birthing is a medical thing? It is not. No where does a person need to have a degree to check a females cervix. Should my DH be charged for "practicing medicine without a license" when he checks my cervix? He would know better than some stranger what is going on with it.
I never even implied that. I have no problem at all with unlicensed midwives but they damn sure better know what the hell they are doing and these women did not apparently. I'm having a UC and believe in UC 100% so I do not share the views you are speaking of. I do however think that if you are going to assist a woman during labor and act as a birth "professional" you need to know what your doing. At the very least you shouldn't watch while she bleeds to death. And I already stated that her dh is at fault as well and I think he too should be held responsible.
post #46 of 132
6/3/06 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
I never even implied that. I have no problem at all with unlicensed midwives but they damn sure better know what the hell they are doing and these women did not apparently. I'm having a UC and believe in UC 100% so I do not share the views you are speaking of. I do however think that if you are going to assist a woman during labor and act as a birth "professional" you need to know what your doing. At the very least you shouldn't watch while she bleeds to death. And I already stated that her dh is at fault as well and I think he too should be held responsible.
They honestly believed they were doing right and they did not just watch her bleed to death. They gave her fluids. Yeah, I wouldn't want a Gatorade enema, but at least they were trying.
You do what you have to do to avoid the Medical Industry. Either no one or everyone involved should be 'punished'.
NONE of their actions killed the mother. As soon as they realized they could not heal her, they called the ambulance.
For all we know, the actions of the Medical Staff killed this mother.
I personally, have been told I would die/need surgery/skin graphs, etc by Western Medicine. Never happened.
Like I have said, Western Medicine is not the ONLY medicine, and it actually causes more deaths than they heal/cure.
post #47 of 132
6/3/06 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
They honestly believed they were doing right and they did not just watch her bleed to death. They gave her fluids. Yeah, I wouldn't want a Gatorade enema, but at least they were trying.
You do what you have to do to avoid the Medical Industry. Either no one or everyone involved should be 'punished'.
NONE of their actions killed the mother. As soon as they realized they could not heal her, they called the ambulance.
For all we know, the actions of the Medical Staff killed this mother.
I personally, have been told I would die/need surgery/skin graphs, etc by Western Medicine. Never happened.
Like I have said, Western Medicine is not the ONLY medicine, and it actually causes more deaths than they heal/cure.
Whether or not they believed they were doing right is a moot point. Testimony of witnesses lead me, and the jury, to believe that they were trying to cover their asses. You know why they waited an hour after Mara lost consciousness to call EMS? Because they were washing the sheets, cleaning up the blood, and hiding the birth supplies. Doesn't sound like they had Mara's best interest at heart to me.

None of their actions caused her to bleed. This is why the State did not charge them with manslaughter. But their actions certainly did not help in any way. And once they have taken the role of caregiver, which they undeniably did, they are responsable. There are reasons why there are laws against impersonating health care providers. It's to protect you, me, and Uncle Joe from nut jobs who read a few books and consider themselves experts.
Mara did not have a fatal medical condition. She had a bicornate uterus, which increased her risk of bleeding, but nothing that skilled medical care could not have prevented. I don't think anyone in their right minds would deny that some skilled care, any kind of skilled care, would have saved this young mother's life. Western medicine is not the be all, end all of health care, but it definately has it's place and time.
post #48 of 132
6/3/06 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenkids
You know why they waited an hour after Mara lost consciousness to call EMS? Because they were washing the sheets, cleaning up the blood, and hiding the birth supplies.
Can you provide a link, because I looked at every link available in this thread and cannot find anything of the sort.
post #49 of 132
6/3/06 at 3:50pm
I don't know if there is a link, I didn't read it. This is from witness testimony. I'll look for one though.
post #50 of 132
6/3/06 at 4:18pm
If they were going to attend her during her labor/delivery they needed to know how to stop excessive bleeding (and if they couldn't in a reasonable amount of time they should have either taken her to the hospital or called 911, not when it was too late). There are plenty of legit things they could have tried. Maybe they were ignorant but I don't think that makes them less responsible. I also believe in avoiding the medical establishment but not enough to die (sometimes medical attention is truly warranted, this was one of those times). I think she could have lived had she gotten help earlier. She was failed by the people who were obviously acting as her midwives or birth attendants if you'd rather (and her dh) and I do think they should be held responsible.
post #51 of 132
6/3/06 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
She was failed by the people who were obviously acting as her midwives or birth attendants if you'd rather (and her dh) and I do think they should be held responsible.
So, I am not certified nor licensed, yet, I attend and assist. Should I be 'punished' every time a mother or baby dies?
No one 'failed' this mother. She made a decision and that decision was hers to make. No one forced her to stay home. No one forced the mother to not educate herself on the risks of her choices.

If the Medical Staff fail a mother, why are they not held accountable and punished every time?

If those who did their best by your wishes, why should they be punished?
post #52 of 132
6/3/06 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
So, I am not certified nor licensed, yet, I attend and assist. Should I be 'punished' every time a mother or baby dies?
If you are acting as a birth "professional" then yes I do believe you should be held responsible, circumstances taken into account of course. Now I don't think you are acting in that compacity, and that you are only there for support.
Quote:
No one 'failed' this mother. She made a decision and that decision was hers to make. No one forced her to stay home. No one forced the mother to not educate herself on the risks of her choices.
I assume she wasn't coerced (although actually she very well might have been) or forced but she put her health into those woman's hands as many women do when pregnant (right or wrong).
I disagree and do think they are
responsible and I just don't think we are going to agree about that.

Quote:
If the Medical Staff fail a mother, why are they not held accountable and punished every time?
Well imo they should be!
post #53 of 132
6/3/06 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenkids
And once they have taken the role of caregiver, which they undeniably did, they are responsable.
They admit in court that they were not in charge and were attending the birth at the request of the mother and father.
http://www.courttv.com/trials/taped/...tv.html?page=3
Quote:
Keith McGlade ... said he and Mara were calling the shots
post #54 of 132
6/3/06 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
NONE of their actions killed the mother. As soon as they realized they could not heal her, they called the ambulance.
Um, okay.

Failure to act IS the action that killed her. Once blood volume loss approaches 50%, the chances of a successful resus become extremely small, regardless of any, even (gasp!) Western, intervention. In a term gestation, that's a lot of fricking blood -- liters of it. There's no way they missed, oh, say, the equivalent of a two-liter bottle of blood. Or two of them, for that matter. A reasonable response to seeing that much blood lost, mom passed out, might be to, say, think that more blood going IN might be a good idea. And that an ambulance might be a useful thing to call.
post #55 of 132
6/3/06 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmama
Um, okay.

Failure to act IS the action that killed her. Once blood volume loss approaches 50%, the chances of a successful resus become extremely small, regardless of any, even (gasp!) Western, intervention. In a term gestation, that's a lot of fricking blood -- liters of it. There's no way they missed, oh, say, the equivalent of a two-liter bottle of blood. Or two of them, for that matter. A reasonable response to seeing that much blood lost, mom passed out, might be to, say, think that more blood going IN might be a good idea. And that an ambulance might be a useful thing to call.
Did you read the article or any of the other posts? She was bleeding internally from an undiagnosed condition.
post #56 of 132
6/3/06 at 5:32pm
Yes, I did. Did you? The article about the trial specifically refers to bleeding from retained pieces of placenta. I don't know how many births you've seen, but I've seen a lot, and bleeding from retained placenta is VAGINAL. As in, comes outside the body? Obvious to the naked eye?
post #57 of 132
6/3/06 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmama
Yes, I did. Did you? The article about the trial specifically refers to bleeding from retained pieces of placenta. I don't know how many births you've seen, but I've seen a lot, and bleeding from retained placenta is VAGINAL. As in, comes outside the body? Obvious to the naked eye?
I have been attending births for over 25 years.
Quote:
The bleeding was due ...primarily because of an undiagnosed condition called a bicornuate uterus
post #58 of 132
6/3/06 at 5:52pm
So, again, a uterine anomaly that creates postpartum bleeding is not going to create concealed bleeding. This isn't a ruptured AAA, where you have no idea where the blood is and why it's not where it should be. Bicornuate uteri are more likely to have retained placenta, but are not, in and of themselves, the source of bleeding, nor does it matter, since the bleeding would be vaginal, and, again, clearly visible to anyone with half a brain.
post #59 of 132
6/3/06 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmama
clearly visible to anyone with half a brain.
Read the trial, it was NOT clearly visible, even by Medical Staff, who didn't figure it out until she was deceased.
post #60 of 132
6/3/06 at 6:08pm
Yes, you do tend to stop bleeding when you've exsanguinated. Body is funny that way.

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