Support for Parents of Gifted Children, #4

[eilonwy]

Wow, is this really the fourth one? Crazy stuff!

At any rate: here we are, a new thread. Soon to be linked to the old thread, just to keep things neat.

Britishmum-- how exciting! I hope that the preschool works out well for you and the girls.

My kids and I are still sick; Mike's feeling a bit better than he was, though. BooBah and BeanBean still have fevers, though not as high as before. Today they both had appetites again, and niether of them gave their lunch back, so despite the fevers I think that they're recovering.

Right now, I'm having problems installing the antivirus software that Mike downloaded. It seems that our version of Windows requires a specific version of the software. Who knew?

[NoHiddenFees]

From the old thread:

Originally Posted by ChristaN

This is my first time posting here & I apologize if I am jumping in just as it looks like you are about to start a new thread.

I saw this addressed a bit in this thread (Paganscribe's post, I think), but I am wondering how you all go about dealing with other parents who are jealous and/or competitive. We have really been having a hard time with this this year w/ my dd's bestfriend's mom. Our kids are 4 months apart in age, but in different grades b/c mine just made the cut-off to start kg last year. This whole year since dd's friend started kg, I have heard non-stop from the mom of this kid how smart her kid is & how much better than my dd.

She called me yesterday to tell me that her kg teacher told her that her child is reading level 8 books & is at a 3rd grade reading level. Now, I know that there are other children who are brighter than my dd. My dd is a smart girl & is above grade level for math & reading (4th-5th for reading & 2nd-3rd for math - she's in first), but I know that she is not the smartest kid around. If a parent whose child truly was academically beyond my dd told me so, it would not bug me in the least. It would just be the way things are.

However, I know how the reader level system works in this school & level 8 books are late year kindergarten books. They expect them to be at 16-20 level at the start of 2nd grade, so I know that level 8 isn't third grade level. I have also seen her dd read (since mom keeps sitting her dd down in front of us & having her read) & she can read really basic stuff like Dick & Jane okay, but she isn't above grade level.

This mom seems to be on a mission to show me how her dd is doing as well (or generally better) than my dd despite being in a younger grade. It is really irking me although I'm sure that it is coming from insecurity or maybe she really does think that her kids is smarter than she is. I don't want to ruin a friendship, but I really would like her to lay off. I also feel badly if the kg teacher (who is pretty inexperienced) is really telling her that her dd is that advanced b/c she is going to be in for a rude awakening at some point when she has a more experienced teacher. Do I just let this drop & try to work on not getting irritated myself when a mom whose kid is very average (but a just fine kid) keeps telling me that her dd is smarter than my child (who really is advanced)?

[NoHiddenFees]

ChristaN:

I have one friend like that and I've just had to stop seeing her very often. I tried gently explaining that I believe that younger kids learn mostly from play in a noncompetitive environment. Practically every time DD1 said or did anything that showed her to be even the slightest bit advanced, she would start literally drilling her son. One day when the kids were about 18 months old, we were at a local children's restaurant and DD1 referred to a "blue" something or other. My friend proceeded to point colours out to her son for a full 10 minutes and encourage him to say the colour name after her "just like DD1." Mind you, he wasn't even very verbal at this point. It was just painful and I felt so badly for the boy.

I'd encourage you to try to look at the situation without factoring you and your daughter in at all. This friend may be irking you, but I fear that she may be doing some real damage to her daughter. She probably wouldn't be receptive to that suggestion, but perhaps you could find a way to communicate to her that you are uncomfortable with the idea of comparing your children. I hope you have better luck than I did in salvaging a friendship.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees

I'd encourage you to try to look at the situation without factoring you and your daughter in at all. This friend may be irking you, but I fear that she may be doing some real damage to her daughter.

Christa, when I read your post, all I could think was "that poor little girl!" Her mother is really laying a headtrip on her.

As to the reading levels: maybe her mother doesn't know what they mean, and thinks that "level 8" means it's for 8 year old children and that's how she gets her whole "third grade" idea. It could be an honest mistake from someone who just has no clue what the teachers are talking about (and really, they speak jargon so that noone will know; those reading levels are practically indecipherable because there are so many different scales). That wouldn't excuse her behavior (making her daughter sit down and read to prove something to you) but it might explain some of it.

I'm not sure what I'd do in such a situation. Truthfully, I work hard to stay out of them at this point. : My kids are still very young, so I can generally avoid the conversations by saying things like "isn't it amazing how every child develops on their own timetable?" or simply "I'm not worried about him/her." BeanBean has made friends with the boy next door who is 4.5 and they get along very well; his mother and I don't discuss child development/levels at all. He'll start kindergarten this year or next (I'm not sure what the cutoff is in this district; I'm planning to homeschool), and I'm sure that school will eventually come up, but by keeping BeanBean out of school I'm hoping to avoid the competition with other parents.

[ChristaN]

Thanks NoHiddenFees (also for moving my post here). This mom & I seem to be drifting a bit anyway & it seems the topic of most of the conversations that we do have now are about how advanced her dd is. I figure that no one other than my, my dh & my parents want to hear that I think that my kids are really bright :LOL , but I guess that she just hasn't gotten to that place yet.

I really have been trying hard to not get into the game of comparisons; I just say that it is great that her dd is doing well, but I find myself really bothered inside. I think that (my internal irritation) is what I need to work on for the most part. As to whether she is pushing her dd, I really don't know. I think that she seems to be interpreting normal development as signs of genius. I am thinking that I just need to not go out of my way to find reasons to call her since we don't seem to have much to talk about anymore anyway, but to leave things at a pleasant, if distant, place.

She seems to have taken to hanging out a lot with two of the moms in her dd's class who are in their early 20s (we are early to mid 30s) right now anyway. Maybe they are filling some need to make her feel really good about her and/or her child right now that I am not.

[ChristaN]

As to the reading levels: maybe her mother doesn't know what they mean, and thinks that "level 8" means it's for 8 year old children and that's how she gets her whole "third grade" idea.

What she told me was that the teacher said that "they stopped testing [her child] because she is now reading level 8 books, which is 3rd grade level." So, I am scratching my head (I know there are a bizzilion scales), but I have seen her dd read & where she is at seems to be right about at the level 8 that I am familiar with (the one used in this school that correlates with kindergarten reading). The only conclusion that I have been able to draw is that the mom is lying in order to inflate how smart her dd looks (the teacher said level 8, but not the stuff about it being 3rd grade level) or the teacher is totally incompetent & doesn't know what 3rd grade reading level looks like at all.

I just don't know.

[NoHiddenFees]

Originally Posted by ChristaN

As to whether she is pushing her dd, I really don't know. I think that she seems to be interpreting normal development as signs of genius.

I don't think it's necessarily a question of pushing so much as her sending screwed up signals to her daughter not only about how she is valued but also that her value determined by comparison with others. Even if her child were indeed a genius, I think it's harmful to encourage the development of self worth using any reference other than yourself.

[oldcrunchymom]

Yeah, what NoHiddenFees said. That lady's attitude seems pretty messed up. I have a friend sort of like that who is always trying to compare our sons (we lived near each other until our sons were 5... now she compares them via email!). She's one of those ones who puts her kid in 8000 activities to try to make him a more "well-rounded" person.

Lisa

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees

I don't think it's necessarily a question of pushing so much as her sending screwed up signals to her daughter not only about how she is valued but also that her value determined by comparison with others. Even if her child were indeed a genius, I think it's harmful to encourage the development of self worth using any reference other than yourself.

Yes, you are definately right there, but I don't know how to communicate that without causing a huge blow-up & making her very upset with me. I guess that I am hoping that it is just a proud mom with her first school aged child (kind of how many people compare their babies development with their first children) & that mom will 'outgrow' it by next year after she has had more time to get used to being a parent of a school aged kid.

It does seem that public schools in general do encourage children to view themselves in comparison to how they stack up to others. My dd's teacher broke the entire class up into color-coded groups based on ability which led to natural comparisons of the childrens' abilities (especially since the groups were red, yellow & green & the kids are also given behavior rankings based on the same colors).

We have had a very difficult year & have actually taken dd out to homeschool at this point. She will be going back to a much better fit of a teacher next year who doesn't feel the need to push the more advanced kids to make herself look good as a teacher. My dd is much happier learning at home at this point and she isn't missing recess every day in order to work more & get to the next higher level on books, math, etc. I just sound like a big complainer, don't I? This has just been a tough year in many ways.

[NoHiddenFees]

Originally Posted by ChristaN

I just sound like a big complainer, don't I? This has just been a tough year in many ways.

Not at all. Have you read:

A Nation Deceived

or

Genius Denied?

The Yahoo group GT-Familes is a good browse to see how parents of gifted kids are faring with public and private schools. We're going to homeschool, so I only read occasionally, but some of the stories are heartwrenching. Hoagies also has a tonne of info on how to deal with school systems.

Gotta run... baby...

[ChristaN]

Well, I guess the situation with the friend came to a bit of a head anyway. Our kids were together earlier & the other mom called me up very upset b/c she said that my dd told her that I said that her child could not read certain books. I was racking my brain to figure out what I had said to my dd & apologized if I had led her to believe anything of that sort. She then told me that I had been blowing her off when she was telling me how well her dd was doing since I just have been responding that that is great & moving on. She feels that I am being competitive & self absorbed b/c I am not responding more favorably to her dd's progress.

Anyway, so when I talked to my dd later, she said that her friend's mom had been quizzing her on what she was able to read & asking her what "level" she was reading at. My dd said that her friend's mom told her to her dd could read as well as she does & apparently my dd responded something like, "oh, my mom said that she couldn't read some book that my younger sister was trying to read."

Now, in thinking about it, my younger dd was trying to read a rather difficult book a few days ago & getting very frustrated & I think that I did say something like, "that's a hard book & even big kindergarteners as big as [friend's child] can't always read that." I was really only trying to lessen my dd's frustration by telling her that she was trying to do something that was very difficult & she shouldn't expect so much of herself since she isn't even a "big kindergartener" yet, but I may have messed up. I apologized to the friend's mom & my kids for putting them in that spot, but I do feel bad. I'm sure that I shouldn't have added "as big as x child" into my discussion with my younger child .

However, I also find myself rather bugged that she was quizzing my kid on her abilities & comparing the two of them right in front of the kids. Given how mad the other mom was during this conversation, I don't think that I want to get into this discussion again, so I don't even know if I bring up the fact that my dd's story is a bit different than the way she presented it to me. I don't want my kids getting dragged into this, though. Just venting... no need to try to solve all of my problems!

eta: And, no, I haven't read either of those two books. I will check them out. My dd's "giftedness" hasn't really been a problem up to this point. I just kept her adequately challenged at home & all was well. We've just had a hard time this year since the first grade teacher seemed to be on a mission to get all of the kids in her class (especially the higher achieving ones) to do more, more, more, faster, faster & stressed them all out in the process. Then there has been the friend issue. I'll try to stop making this all about me now!

BTW, are most of you homeschooling or planning to do so? Anyone having an okay experience with gifted children in public school?

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by ChristaN

It does seem that public schools in general do encourage children to view themselves in comparison to how they stack up to others. My dd's teacher broke the entire class up into color-coded groups based on ability which led to natural comparisons of the childrens' abilities (especially since the groups were red, yellow & green & the kids are also given behavior rankings based on the same colors).

Wow is that ever a mistake. I'd like to say that it's related to inexperience, but good lord haven't these people ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecy? Doesn't she realize that telling a child "You behaved badly, you're in the red group" and then telling them that they're in the red reading group is the same as telling the kid flat-out that they're "bad" readers?

Public school and the gifted child: In the last thread, Charles Baudelaire wrote a really good post about it. I think it's on the second-to-last page, but I'm not sure. I can tell you that as a profoundly gifted child, I was never challenged at all, to say nothing of educated. It was a complete waste of time. My kids are homeschooling. If you can do it, I say go for it, but I would encourage anyone who has the time and energy to consider homeschooling, regardless of how gifted the child is or isn't.

[Foobar]

Hey! Found you! I was wondering where my daily email was!


Goo is fighting potty still (TELL ME THIS ENDS!!!) She decided to wear panties the other day just to refuse to pee in the potty. Apparently, The floor at Radio Shack is better for peeing.

The other day, Goo blew us away by iusing the phrase "the Clouds are parting" to describe something on Dora. Wow. I think it must be because I get very descriptive when talking to her and Moo.

I am planning on sending my kids to public schools. That said, I think Goo is advanced, but not willing to go all the way gifted. I was labeled gifted and did ok in public schools, but I think I would offer my kids some extra challenge if they showed signs of needing it.

Ryanna- Moo is trying to walk!! YIKES! She used the walking toy the other day and yesterday she climbed a flight of stairs before I noticed! (bad mommy)
I figure since Boobah and Moo are the same age and they are doing the same things, you'd get a kick out of it!

[USAmma]

Originally Posted by Foobar

Hey! Found you! I was wondering where my daily email was!


Goo is fighting potty still (TELL ME THIS ENDS!!!) She decided to wear panties the other day just to refuse to pee in the potty. Apparently, The floor at Radio Shack is better for peeing.

Abi learned to read before she learned to use the potty on a regular basis. I have heard it's hereditary so in that case our girls don't have much of a chance with early potty training. Abi potty trained at 3.8 years old, and at age 4.5 still has the occasional accident.

Hang in there. When she starts school she'll stop having accidents because of peer pressure. Sometimes peer pressure is a good thing.

[Foobar]

I was thinking today about potty.. It is MY obsession.

We don't call her a big girl. We use medium girl because she does some little girl things and some big girl things.

I wonder if she is afraid of dissapointing me. She really needs approval on these things and I think she is afriad of me getting upset. (which I do, but I try not to show it...WHY am I obsessed about having her out of pullups???). I know she was doing well until her teacher at daycare criticized her to us infront of her (yes, I talked to the daycare director and got that all settled out)....I wonder... She is in preschool at daycare. Just started and I am hoping the peer pressure kicks in....

[oldcrunchymom]

Neither of my kids was fully potty trained until 3.5, IIRC. I think with MOST kids if you leave them alone about it, and don't count "mommy training" as potty training, that's probably the average age.

[eilonwy]

Hm. Well, BeanBean uses the toilet at home all the time (he especially likes to flush) but when he's playing outside he often gets distracted. If I'm feeling energetic, I'll ask him to use the baby bjorn seat but usually that's too much of an argument while he's busy playing with his friends, so I just put a diaper on him. As often as not, it's dry when he comes inside. His friend is 4.5 and his mother will periodically ask him to use the potty, and when that happens BeanBean is willing to come in and use the toilet, too.

It's a very individual thing, though, and it's all him. He tried to get himself out of diapers while I was too pregnant to comfortably squat with him. :LOL Most of the time during the day, I only find out that he's gone to the bathroom when I hear the toilet flush or hear him washing his hands afterwards. He's just an independant litte fellow.

Mike and I were discussing dependance. It comes up a lot at work for him, because his coworkers know that our kids are both in bed with us and both nursing. They think that Mike is nuts, but he gets more sleep than they do. :LOL Anyway, I was talking about how "early weaning and putting kids in their own cribs from birth" is the way to make them independant. We had a good laugh about it, because BeanBean is one of the most independant 2.5 year olds I've ever seen.

Foobar-- that's so cool! There's one baby who's fully walking in the June Babies thread over in LWAB, and one who's very close like BooBah (Killy, who's actually a May baby ). I think a few others have started standing, and there are a few more cruisers and some who are crawling and wiggling. Anyway, now that BooBah's not "the first walker" I can talk about her a little bit again. I'm waiting for another baby to start singing or clapping in rhythm or dancing next. :LOL There are a few more babies who say some words, too, and that's great. The first year is such a busy time, and the kids grow and change so much, but unless you have strong reason to suspect that they're likely to be gifted (as I do) you can't really say anything about their future based on how early they crawl/walk/sing/etc. I just wish that when I say something like "BooBah is trying to walk" others wouldn't interpret it as "my baby is smarter than your baby" or "I'm a better mother than you are because your kid is barely crawling." They're so totally unrelated! I think that BooBah's physical skills are certainly an expression of her giftedness, but if that was all there was I wouldn't feel confident saying "she's probably a very bright kid."

ChibiChibi is totally impressed by BooBah's rhythm. :LOL She loves tapping something out and watching BooBah tap it back. :LOL Super cute!!

[Foobar]

Ok- THis probably should be in toddlers, but can I ask here? How do I, as the mommy, NOT get stressed about potty? It drives me nuts! I can't stand that she has poop up against her butt or that she will stand and pee on herself. I change her ASASLM (as soon as she lets me), but still...

This does appear to be a competative thing for me? Or is it? I can't tell....
UGH!

[LeftField]

Wrt potty training, I thought my son would never do it. He trained at about 3.5 yrs old, in two weeks. Really, it was less than that, but that's as long as it took for me to feel comfortable that he wouldn't have accidents. His issue, if you will, was that he is a huge perfectionist. He will not attempt most things unless he's sure that he can do it. And he doesn't like to make a mess. So he wouldn't even attempt toileting, because it was too much of a "what if" for him. When he was finally ready, he did it all the way. It took minimal coaching on our part. I'm biased from my one measley experience, but anything less than 3yrs old seems really early to me.

I have a question, totally unrelated. Do any of your extended family act weird about your dc's giftedness?

My ILs are wonderful people. I adore them so much. They are wonderful with my children. My MIL is in early education and not only is she a natural with children, but she's a huge supporter of our decision to homeschool. But she's a bit weird about ds1's abilities. They get regular emails from me, updating them on the kids. Dh talks to them every week too (we live a long way from them).

Ds has been writing/copying words for almost a year. I've mailed them things that he's made, including a recent note that I dictated to him. But on a recent visit, MIL said, in an astonished voice to me, "Wait until you see this. Ds wrote the letter, 'B'!" Later, they were drawing and ds wanted to draw seaweed. They were going to "help" him, but he talked over them, saying, "First, we need to draw a rectangle for the bottom." Then, he apparently traced his hand above that to make the seaweed effect. I was reading in the other room and I heard MIL ask him, in a hushed tone, "Did your mother show you how to do that?" I heard him reply, "No." and then she asked, "Did your Daddy show you that?"

In the past, when he was comfortably doing 60 piece puzzles, she would "help" him do, like, 24 piece puzzles that he mastered at 24 months. I didn't care, as long as he was having fun, but then, she'd make a big deal to me how he got some sky piece in by himself.

Also, at our recent visit, she exclaimed, "You know how to use scissors!!", when I had recently sent a photo of a detailed paper digger that ds created by himself; among the many cut pieces were tiny cut triangles for the shovel of the digger.

She's a great MIL and a wonderful grandmother. The way I look at it, she's excited about spending time with the kids and ds1 is having fun. He has the kind of personality that "hides" a lot of who he is. If you met him, you might not hear much out of him. Plus, he jumps at the chance to do anything with his grandparents. He'd gladly do a 4 piece puzzle if it meant spending time with them. He's very unaware of levels right now; he just does what makes him happy.

So, I realize this is probably a non-issue since they're all having fun. But it drives me nuts on some level, because now I'm paranoid that they think I'm exaggerating his abilities. I guess I don't want them to think that I'm a braggy mother who is making things up or embellishing things for attention. I'm not! I am very matter-of-fact about things. If he were learning the alphabet for the first time, I'd have the same approach and tone.

Anyway, I guess that's more of a vent than anything else. I'm curious if anyone else's family is skeptical or weird about this sort of thing.

[eilonwy]

Well, my mother is stuck in "my baby is better than your baby" mode, despite the fact that her youngest "baby" is 23 years old and has two children of her own. She thinks that normal kids are abnormal, and was very concerned when BeanBean wasn't speaking in full, clear sentences just like a grownup at 11 months. Seriously. She knows that he's gifted, but because he doesn't do the strange highly/profoundly gifted things (and I mean *all* of them, *all* the time) she's just got to point out all the things that he doesn't do and she refuses to be impressed with anything that he can/does do.

Mike's parents are similar to your IL's, except that they want to brag about him so they'll tell anyone anything. I worry a little bit about it, because FIL in particular likes to "show him off" and I really don't think that's healthy behavior. MIL is much more relaxed. She didn't really understand how exceptional his behaviors were until she started talking with co-workers who have grandchildren/nieces/nephews the same age. She's pretty cool for the most part, though. She knows we're not exagerating because she sees him every weekend and he's very comfortable with her. It's all good. Yeah, my mom's the big problem.

In your position... well, my first thought is "don't worry about it too much" but I have to tell you, someone accused me of unwarranted bragging about BeanBean in my blog and it really offended me. :LOL I don't want to be percieved that way, I don't think any of us do. I dunno, I'll have to think about that one.