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Do you eat organic/natural foods and vaccinate your children? - Page 5

post #81 of 157
Not once did I say anyone was an idiot. I thought I was being civil, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

As I said, I can relate to the concern over the additives in a vaccine, and to the timing and frequency of them, I'm careful about what I put into my system, but to say that the body doesn't respond to invasion with inoculation is a bit much for me.

This is close to home for me right now too because I need to have a blood titre done to see if I have chicken pox antibodies. I didn't have it as a child, and, I can't risk catching it when I get pregnant, so, I'll need to get vaccinated against it. My mother tried giving it to us as children, but it didn't work. My sister got it as an adult, so, I doubt I have immunity.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4170387.stm

So, we've been doing such a good job providing clean drinking water to people that the WHO has managed to slash worldwide polio cases from 350 THOUSAND to 1,185? That's a pretty dramatic drop in numbers over 17 years.

I thought that the world was having great difficulty providing people with clean water, yet, aid workers have nearly wiped out this crippling and deadly disease. And where are they having a relapse? In countries who have banned the vaccine because of fears that the West is trying to kill off African children though the vaccinations.

I've listened to plenty of people claim to be "science-minded" and then say that the T-Rex was a vegetarian because all beasts ate no flesh before the flood in the Bible and that we all suddenly sprang up from dust ten thousand years ago.

If you have religious opposition to vaccination, then, well, there's not really much I can say to that. Your beliefs are your beliefs.

But, if you really question the science of vaccination, you're going to have to provide more proof that they don't work other than the apparent global spread of clean drinking water.

Again, I understand the concerns over the preservatives and the cultures of the vaccinations, along with the sheer volume we seem to be pumping kids full of, which is why I'm going to scale things down - but to say that the polio vaccine isn't responsible for the near eradication of polio doesn't make any sense.
post #82 of 157
Ideally we eat organic (in practice since my car accident, we are at the mercy of whatever our moms cook), and will never vax.
Quote:
OMG another mama here who actually chooses to put her faith in SCIENCE!!
Seems she's putting her faith in other people's belief systems masquerading as science. Not insulting her or anyone - we've all done it. But I personally am no longer confused by other people's agendas - even if they sound really official and all.

BTW, I've never met a REAL scientist (without personal agenda regarding vax) who thinks they are remotely sound scientific practice. Starting with the fact that the gold standard of scientific process is double-blind study. There have been *NO* such studies of vax for either safety or efficacy. They've been around long enough to have come up with a well-constructed study, but no dice.

Science?? Not according to any sound scientific practice I'm aware of. But of course, any scientist or doc who dares mention that is immediately slandered and labeled "quack".

I do, for example, really have a hard time swallowing the idea that vaxes can give immunity for diseases that the disease itseft doesn't give immunity! How exactly does that work?? Yet that is passed for "science" too...
post #83 of 157
We buy and eat organic food-but we do occasionally eat out in restaurants that don't serve organic food. I wish there were more that did. We are not vaccinating our 9 mo old. There are so many chemicals in vaccines, even if you forget the thimerosal-formaldehyde, aluminum, etc see
http://dem0nmac.mgh.harvard.edu/foru...gredients.html

I liked this article for those who wish to vaccinate:
http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/29/v...n_schedule.htm
post #84 of 157
Regarding the polio outbreaks...

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...TL&type=health

Quote:
The Yemeni children found to have polio, from 18 months to 7 years old, all are in the Red Sea port of Al Hudaida and first showed signs of paralysis in February or early March, said Dr. Mohamed H. Wahdan, the WHO's Eastern Mediterranean polio coordinator. In poor countries, it can take weeks to confirm a polio case because stool samples must be sent to distant laboratories.

All the children had been vaccinated, Wahdan said, but apparently not enough times. In countries with hot weather, open sewers and many intestinal viruses, it can take six to eight doses of vaccine to produce the same immunity that three or four do in cooler, cleaner countries.
Yep they had been vaccinated. Apparently the vaccines dont work in communities with filthy water. Hmmm I wonder why??????

Always look a little deeper.
post #85 of 157
We eat organic as much as we can afford, and we do not vax. However, to me, the issue of eating organic vs. non-organic is pretty simple - organic is clearly better (or at least most can agree it's not worse), it's just a matter of being able to afford it or not (and in many cases we cannot). The whole vaccination issue is extremely complicated in comparison, which is why I don't think it makes any sense to put these two issues together. If food contains nasty additives it's easy to say "no I don't want to eat that, because there is natural food available that is better for me", but if vaccines contain nasty additives, it's a whole different question of what the alternatives are - such as, are you making your child more succeptible to certain diseases, etc. Obviously we are all trying to do what is best for our children with what knowledge and resources we have available to us, and I don't think you can really logically compare the organic food issue to the vaccination issue.
post #86 of 157
The medical defination of polio changed in 1955. Prior to 1955, polio, aseptic meningitis, and cocksackie virus were all recorded as polio. After 1955 they were recorded as separate diseases.

While polio was going "down" cases of aseptic meningitis was going up (Los Angeles County Health index):

July 1955 (before the new defination): 273 cases of polio reported 50 cases of asceptic meningitis

July 1961 (after the new defination) 65 cases of polio/161 cases of asceptic meningitis

Sept 1966 (also after) 5 cases of polio but 256 cases of asceptic meningitis

Another factor in decline of polio is the use of DDT. Exposure to DDT causes polio like symptoms (which was sprayed around bodies of water for mosquitos). It was not banned until 1972. There are many other causes of polio LIKE symptoms, such as extreme Vit B deficiencies, etc.

Studies show that 95% of those exposed to polio wont exhibit any symptoms, even under epidemic conditions (Physicians Desk Reference, 55th edition, 2001 page 78.) 1 in 1000 of those who contract polio ended up with muscular paralysis. 999 did not.

Not to mention that over 100 million american children (and lots of others in other countries) who were given the OPV between 1955-1963 received vaccines contaminated with SV40, which is linked to brain, lung, bone cancers and leukemia. It is evident in the high cancer rates we see today.
post #87 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Lori
I don't think you can really logically compare the organic food issue to the vaccination issue.
Why not? Eating healthy is by far the best way protect the body from illnesses and disease. Apparently everyone just bases their logic on different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Lori
but if vaccines contain nasty additives, it's a whole different question of what the alternatives are - such as, are you making your child more succeptible to certain diseases, etc.
BUT, you cannot leave out all the tons more that they become succeptible to by choosing to vaccinate. It's a double edged sword, but I think the side of vaccinating is a lot sharper.

Either way, our conclusions are the same, we just got their on slightly different paths.
post #88 of 157
<<BUT, you cannot leave out all the tons more that they become succeptible to by choosing to vaccinate. It's a double edged sword, but I think the side of vaccinating is a lot sharper.>>
Right, I agree, which is exactly why I am saying the vaccine issue is far more complicated than the food issue. The organic question is an easy one and has mostly to do with what you can afford. I don't think very many people out there would argue that conventional is actually healthier for you than organic (though maybe I'm wrong, I don't know). With vaccines, I believe there are valid arguments on both sides, or at the very least, it is a complex issue (which anyone who has done the research knows).
post #89 of 157
Quote:
quoted by Klothos

yes they have a lot of nasty ingredients, but in such tiny amounts that there is very little risk associated with them... whereas not vaccinating carries the giant risk that your child might contract a nasty incurable disease.
I'm doing a case at the moment, and in front of me is a letter from an American cardiologist advising that her child, with a heart defect should not be vaccinated, because the aluminium in the vaccines is cardiotoxic, and the mercury in the flu vaccine could present additional problems as well.

When a cardiologist says something like that, then I'm very interested.

There is no disease on the immunisation schedule that is NOT curable. Contrary to conventional medical wisdom. Not vaccinating, does not carry a giant risk of dying from those diseases.

Were that so, you wouldn't have a family tree at all.

In terms of nutrition, this is hugely important Klothos. You need to access microbiology information on this.

Start with two older books. The first is called "Nutrition, Immunity and Infection Mechanisms of Interactions" by R. K. Chandra, and was published in America by Plenum press.

The second is another by the same author, no 12 in current topics of Immunology series, and should be available from your medical library.

its called "Immunology of Nutritional Disorders.

When you have read those two, then read the more recent ones by him, and others in the field. After that, do a pubmed search using critical nutrients and the immunological processes you know.

When you have finished all that you will understand that the key determinant of how a body reacts to any disease in normal day to day life, is nutrition. EXTRA stressors, which can step you outside of nutrition are war, famine and "pestilence".

When you've reaqd all that, go back over the history of USA, and do comparative graphs charting the influence of depressions, war etc, and compare that with death totals for immunable diseases.

Then chart obesity, junk food, sugar, and look at how they are now responsible for the first three of your death totals, because malnutrition doesn't just mean "not getting enough food". I can mean living your life eating garbage.

We can't, of course, blame nutrition of preventable medical error. Well, actually, maybe we could. Because if people ate properly all the time, then apart from accidents, and aberations caused by immunodeficiencies, they might not have been in the system in the first place, and placed themselves at risk of preventable medical error.

Mamatowill:

Quote:
I am vaxing partly due to the fact that many of my family members have had to live with the consequences of polio.
Yes, there is a genetic component to Polio. Dr V Wyatt's medical articles prove that. But Dr Sandler's book, also shows that those people who have a genetic susceptibility can avoid polio provided they never eat refined sugar or white flour. Part of that is also explained in Chandra's work, where he explains how sugar completely bombs in the cellular immune system for three hours each time you eat it.

Quote:
Also when I was doing my research one of the statistics which I found pointed out that 10% of people who contracted tetanus would still die- even with all of the current medical treatment and early diagnoses. The question I ask myself is which is the smaller risk to me- the vaccine or the disease.
The problem with the way you've worded that, is that it reads as if you have assumed that your child WILL get tetanus and therefore have a one in 10 chance of dying. If wounded soldiers, in Flanders (horse country) in the first world war, only had a 2 per 1,000 chance of gettting tetanus, why would you think your child would have much chance of getting it? Yes, its ubiquitous.... but my dad who was brought up in third world countries as a baby and child, and whose father was a horse breeder and racer, is 93. He's never had a tetanus shot in his life. To what should I attribute his old age? Good luck, or good management?

Quote:
If my child had been damaged or myself by vaccines that would definitely change that balance. Both sides carry risks.
Here is where you are right. Both sides carry risks. But it doesn't change the balance IMO. If your child gets a disease, your child is the 100% risk of getting that disease. the outcome will depend on your child's nutrition, immunological status and how you manage it, not "luck". And if your child is damaged from a vaccine, that risk is also 100%.

All the population based models for risk/benefit equations go right out the window in both scenarios.

Quote:
Plus i know one person mentioned chicken pox. Chicken pox stays in your body forever and can keep flaring up as shingles throughout your life. My mother gets it frequently. Also my doctor mentioned that the cases of chicken pox that go to the hospital can have the added complication of flesh eating disease. I discuss the vaxes with my doctor before giving them.
Can you explanin your reasoning please? The chickpox virus from the vaccine also stays in your body forever, and does exactly the same thing as chickenpox caught naturally. In fact, it's worse, because now there is a lot more shingles in children now, as a result of the vaccine.

So the argument could be made that had the child caught chickenpox naturally, then the immune system might have impounded the virus more effectively leading to fewer rebound outbreaks. Given by an "abnormal" route, the chickenpox vaccine doesn't alert the immune system the way it does when it has to come through the cellular immune system first.

As to the necrotising fasciitis with chickenpox, that's only a risk as I understand it, in a person who uses anti-pyretics to keep the fever down. Every single case that I've seen documented properly, where the person has had NF, the person used substantial quantities of non-steroidal anti-inflammatories or something like paracetamol, to keep the fever down. In which case, the NF is self-inflicted.

NF is also caused by normal skin bacteria (usually staph aureus) gone berserk. You also have to ask what the person has "done" to their skin and their immune system to have bacteria which is sitting on the ends of your fingers, right now, go berserk and try to kill them.

Trinitty:

Quote:
Okay, just so I am clear:

Do you folks not... see,/believe in/recognise the efficacy of vaccines? The very science of it I mean?
Okay, sorry if I'm thick.

Could you explain the science of it please? But before you do, please elaborate on what these scientists mean when they now admit that they don't know the "science" behind vaccines:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...al-2305100.php

>>>>Vaccines work simply by producing antibodies, right? Well, probably not. And this misconception coupled with basic ignorance of how they do work is stalling the urgent quest for an AIDS vaccine, claim leading HIV researchers. They say no one has bothered to find out how highly successful vaccines like polio, measles and hepatitis B actually protect people from disease.<<<

I notice they assume the highly successful nature of vaccines, without justifying the historical decline graphs, but that's another issue. I would just like to understand the "very science" of vaccines if possible.

Another quote from the above URL:

>>>The assumption that successful vaccines work by simply producing antibodies is almost certainly wrong, Neal Nathanson, director of the US Office of AIDS Research, warns.

.....Even if researchers can plug these huge gaps in their basic understanding, they may face another obstacle in their pursuit of an AIDS vaccine. Inducing antibodies against HIV might, in the initial stages of infection, do more harm than good, claims Ron Montelaro of the University of Pittsburgh. <<<<


And this one on 11 February 2005 here:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/...0825201.htm?1c

<<<<Even for diseases that have vaccines, scientists don't understand completely how the vaccines work or how they might be improved. Scientists at the institute seek answers.>>>>

If they don't understand how vaccines work, how can they make "safer" vaccines? Seems an oxymoron to me. Also, when I read paediatric immunology text books, I notice that they don't really understand how a baby's immune system works either.

So I wonder what the science is, of a vaccine that they don't know how it works, being put into a baby's immune system about which they are also unclear?

And when you've done explaining that, I'd be interested if you can suggest an explaination as to why it was that in spite of lovely high rubella titres from a vaccine, 12 weeks before my first pregnancy, I got rubella when I was 8 weeks pregnant?

Or the many other cases like me, in the medical literature.

Trinitty, why do you think you might not have immunity to chickenpox? I mean, you could be right, but research done in your own country shows this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


Quote:
Most ten-year-old children with negative or unknown histories of chickenpox are immune.

Boulianne N, Duval B, De Serres G, Deceuninck G, Masse R, Couillard M.

Institut National de Sante Publique du Quebec, Quebec, Canada. nicole.boulianne@ssss.gouv.qc.ca

To evaluate the proportion of children to vaccinate against varicella in a catch-up program targeting 9- to 10-year-old children, a study was conducted among children age 10 years to assess the age-specific incidence of varicella and document the immunity against varicella in those with negative or unknown chickenpox history. Of the latter 62% were seropositive for varicella.

PMID: 11734718 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
But given that the medical literature ALSO now says that "repeated chickenpox is more common than previously thought" your sister might also get it again. You never know.

As to the rest of your arguments, I could expand, but feel this is tome enough for this time.
post #90 of 157
Thread Starter 
post #91 of 157
In terms of vaccines in foods, they've been at this one for ages.

Here is one of the latest URL's on the topic:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=343702005

Quote:
VACCINES against a whole range of diseases could be put into soft drinks and ordinary foodstuffs such as confectionery, fruit and yoghurt, according to a Scots scientist.

Dr John March, of the Moredun Research Institute near Edinburgh, is investigating a new method that allows vaccines to be administered orally rather than by injection.

This raises the prospect of immunising the general population with specially modified food - something which could be particularly useful in Third World countries with few health service facilities.

Currently, putting vaccines in food is not particularly effective because they are often destroyed in the stomach.

Dr March’s method, which uses DNA vaccine in a harmless bacterial virus "container", has been shown to be more effective in early tests. He is hoping to trial a cancer vaccine within two years, as revealed in The Scotsman yesterday.
But there are many other "food" vaccines in the pipeline.

Already, they've done specific antigens in cows milk, others in hen's eggs, Hepatitis B in bananas and tomatoes.

they've also looked into vaccines in black-eyed beans

A parvovirus vaccine for dogs in cowpeas, and there are laboratories world wide looking at genetically engineering virus fragments into spinach and other vegetables.

Another one that has been developed is a cholera vaccine in potatoes, which they see has having huge potential in India.

the problem they have yet to resolve is the issue of "overdose" and resultant "auto-immunity".

they are also looking at what I call "designer" insects, one of which is using mosquitos as flying vaccine syringes.

I kid you not.
post #92 of 157
Oh yes, and I forgot to mention a biotechnological company called ProdiGene in Texas which is creating and HIV-type genetically engineered vaccine in Maize.
post #93 of 157
Thread Starter 
Ok, can you guess what song is in my head now? :LOL



Seriously now, this is all absolutely awful and I hope it never happens, but I bet someone'll have an "accident" and it will. Do ya think a "designer" mosquito would just explode if it got the west nile virus?
post #94 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
Ok, can you guess what song is in my head now? :LOL
... nope

Quote:
Seriously now, this is all absolutely awful and I hope it never happens, but I bet someone'll have an "accident" and it will. Do ya think a "designer" mosquito would just explode if it got the west nile virus?
Does a mosquito explode when it gets malaria?
post #95 of 157
Quote:
Does a mosquito explode when it gets malaria?
I could be wrong, but I think she is wondering what effect there would be if a designer mosquito carrying an immunization were to ALSO acquire the "wild" version of the disease it was meant to immunize against.
post #96 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breathless Wonder
I could be wrong, but I think she is wondering what effect there would be if a designer mosquito carrying an immunization were to ALSO acquire the "wild" version of the disease it was meant to immunize against.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
Ok, can you guess what song is in my head now?
...from the halls of Montezuma...
post #97 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
...from the halls of Montezuma...
....



I must be thick, but I have NO IDEA what y'all are yabberin on about!
post #98 of 157
post #99 of 157
MT- your posts!


Trinity, what province do you live in? I am in Ontario, and our vax schedule is diff from what you posted (I know all provs are diff). The one for ON is: http://www.publichealthgreybruce.on....sResources.htm
post #100 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Brite
MT- your posts!


Trinity, what province do you live in? I am in Ontario, and our vax schedule is diff from what you posted (I know all provs are diff). The one for ON is: http://www.publichealthgreybruce.on....sResources.htm
Aren't they fantastic? Very impressive.

MT, I hope you aren't mad about the song in my head!!
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