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Single parenthood as a feminist issue?

2K views 42 replies 22 participants last post by  freegirl23cat 
#1 ·
(Caveat: this is a tender subject for me; I get enough flak from my boyfriend. If you post, and I hope you do, please be gentle.)

As most of you know, I'm a solo parent and very proud to be supporting my family of two. I've mentioned that there's a boyfriend in the picture; I've known him almost a year. I like our relationship exactly the way it is: separate homes, committed but not living together, dating exclusively every weekend, plus daily emails. I feel like I've got it all: a loving family (my daughter), my freedom (SO precious!), plus a loving boyfriend to share activities and adult conversation.

Problem is: that's not enough for him. And I feel it's a feminist issue.

I want: to keep what I've got, the best of all worlds.
HE wants things to "progress" into living together, marriage, perhaps another child. He wants to "be a family." He says that by denying him this, I'm taking away his chance to have a family and forcing him to be lonely the rest of his life.
(He assumes, proably accurately, that the bio-dad would terminate rights if he petitioned to adopt. But I don't want that!)

I don't feel there's much room for compromise. I don't want to invite him into our family, just alongside it, the way he is. I do think that his wanting this "goal" of changing my family and my living situation is in essence saying there's something wrong with those, that they need to be improved, while instead I think they are perfect just the way they are. (I mean, his family -- his bachelorhood -- and his living conditions may merit improvement, but that's not my responsibility.) And frankly, what would I get out of a change? I'd lose a lot -- closet space, intellectual space (being able to go to MY home after this argument, not have to share a bed with the arguer!), family definition -- and just have to put up with more of him. I love him, yes, but as a permanent date, not a roommate! And my daughter doesn't need a father!

So I'm not asking whether to break up with the guy or not. Frankly, I'm NOT going to compromise my boundaries and my daughter's protected childhood; I will keep to the status quo and, if he keeps insisting on getting a wife, let him free to find one. (I'll genuinely offer to keep up a friendship with a weekly activity date so he and my daughter can continue their healthy bond, though.)

What I am interested in discussing is the idea mentioned in my thread title. Do any of you feel like society/boyfriends/others pressure you to fit some traditional mold of a family, to add in a dad-figure to "complete" your already perfect family -- at the loss of your own freedom and pride in leading your family? Please share your frustrations and support. I'm so, so danged proud of my family and it BURNS me to be asked to give up all that pride and freedom so that some boy can "not feel lonely."

Second caveat: I'm NOT criticising any single mom who chooses to add in an adult partner. Who knows; in five years I may choose to, even with this current boyfriend [whom I've known for less than a year, again]. I just can't say that change is my goal. All I can say, and have said, to boyfriend is that currently I have zero plans to change or "work toward" change, and that my ideal of single parenthood is at least as valid as his Leave-It-To-Beaver goal [complete with a SAHparent, which is NOT the reality of my family where I breadwin].

Boy, can I ramble! Hope this makes sense.
 
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#2 ·
I think there is still an overwhelming belief that marriage between a man and woman who raise children together is the "ideal" family. Despite the growing number of gay marriages, single parents and couples who choose not to marry or choose not to have kids, etc. I think the majority of North America culture still believes this or has it ingrained in some way that anything else is somehow, less.

I felt a lot of guilt and shame after my marriage broke up, like somehow it was my fault that this "ideal" was not achieved and I was somehow less. My thoughts after my ex left and I realized we were moving our separate ways was that I would "need a new male" for my kids.

It has taken time and is still a process for me to change these thoughts. Quite often my first thoughts are from the way I was socialized and then I have to immediately stop and think differently. I feel more complete now and that also affects the way I view my family as being complete.

I think it is ever-so-slowly changing and more people are becoming comfortable with all sorts of families. Even my mom who was widowed a couple years ago says she probably wouldn't ever live with anyone or get married again. She thinks it would be better to have separate houses. (If you knew my mom, you'd know that's progress!!!)

So, I guess I'm not sure if I've addressed the issue. I guess I have felt it, still do to an extent and believe that we are slowly moving towards change.

We are a perfect family......whatever we look like.
 
#3 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Seasons
As most of you know, I'm a solo parent (bio-dad on the birth certificate & rights not terminated, but he's never met my daughter) and very proud to be supporting my family of two. I've mentioned that there's a boyfriend in the picture; I've known him almost a year. I like our relationship exactly the way it is: separate homes, committed but not living together, dating exclusively every weekend, plus daily emails. I feel like I've got it all: a loving family (my daughter), my freedom (SO precious!), plus a loving boyfriend to share activities and adult conversation.

Problem is: that's not enough for him. And I feel it's a feminist issue.

What I am interested in discussing is the idea mentioned in my thread title. Do any of you feel like society/boyfriends/others pressure you to fit some traditional mold of a family, to add in a dad-figure to "complete" your already perfect family -- at the loss of your own freedom and pride in leading your family? Please share your frustrations and support. I'm so, so danged proud of my family and it BURNS me to be asked to give up all that pride and freedom so that some boy can "not feel lonely."

Boy, can I ramble! Hope this makes sense.
TOTALLY makes sense. I have felt this while dating and society. The first man I dated after I had my dd, she was two years old. Within a month of dating he told me he was planning on taking a promotion at work, so that he could afford a home with a large yard. For dd and I. He wanted to "take care of us". The relationship didn't last much longer.

My second relationship (maybe six months later) was with a single Dad with 3 girls, twins the same age as my dd, and another daughter one year older. This man was a DOLL, but again, talked too soon and too much about wanting to "take care of me and dd". He talked about all of us becoming a family, which lead me to assume he wanted some help as well. His 3 + my 1 = four girls(which at that time would have been 3-3 yo's and 1-4yo) for me to stay at home and raise. Maybe it's selfish but I already have a family. I was looking for companionship.

I think both of these men, as much as they are sweet, didn't see my life for what it really is. They didn't believe that I live with my parents because that is my choice, that I am needed here to help my Dad care for my Mom. They saw me as being "dependent". Maybe I am old fashioned in that way, but while my Mom and Dad need my help, I will be happy to supply it. I have a long life to live, and the memories that I am being provided daily for myself and dd are a blessing, not a curse.

I tried unsuccessfully to tell them both that I am perfectly happy, and that I wasn't looking to be "taken care of" and that is when the relationships fizzled. They wanted to be the super hero, but I already am one...LOL.
: Maybe I am sexist with my next statement but I can see where these men are coming from. I see how the "save the girl" motive could really get to a man.

I have friends, extended family, and others in the world who ask me occasionally "When are you going to get out on your own?". HUH? I was on my own. I lived independently from my parents for 6 years, part of that time on the other side of the country. At this time I am needed here, and truthfully yes I need them too. We need each other, we are family, and I don't see how that is a bad thing? I don't cost my parents money living here. I save them money and time. They supply me with a place to live, and 24/7 love for my dd.

My Mom tells me every night before she goes to sleep how grateful she is that dd and I live here. I keep telling her she doesn't have to tell me everyday, but she is forgetful and it feels good for her to say so.

As much as we would like to believe that the world is moving forward. Plus the numbers tell us that more than half of the children in the country are being raised in single parent households. People like to see others wrapped into pretty little packages. In their mind meaning, Dad+Mom=2.5 kids.

Seasons you have the right to have the life you want. If your partner feels like he isn't getting enough, that's really his issue, not yours.

People ask me all the time if I am dating, if I want more kids, if I want to be married, and the kicker (drum roll)
if I am nervous that I am turning 30 this year and I am still single (OH NO
).
I keep repeating the same quote "If I am single, never married, ever in my life, and that is the WORST thing that happens to me, I am a lucky lucky gal".
 
#4 ·
I think it just means that you have different goals.. His goal is marraige and a family.. (which based on your post he lacks) You already have a family and aren't looking for a partner.. Just a companion.. I don't think either of you is wrong.. You simply have different goals.. And if marraige and a "family" is what your companion wants.. And you don't.. It really isn't an issue you can just put on hold.. He's bound to build up resentment with you.. And you with him.

I don't really see it as a feminist issue.. Like I said.. just a seperate set of goals..

Just my.02;

Warm Squishy Feelings..
Dyan
 
#5 ·
I think this isn't so much a feminist issue as a personal issue between you and your bf. It's not antifeminist to marry or to want to do that. It just sounds like you aren't as into him as he is into you. If you're willing to let him go because you don't want to marry him, then that's up to you. but it doesnt say anything bad about any of the rest of us if we choose to marry someone. it means we're lucky to have found someone worth marrying, IMHO.
 
#6 ·
Quote:
I think this isn't so much a feminist issue as a personal issue between you and your bf. It's not antifeminist to marry or to want to do that. It just sounds like you aren't as into him as he is into you. If you're willing to let him go because you don't want to marry him, then that's up to you. but it doesnt say anything bad about any of the rest of us if we choose to marry someone. it means we're lucky to have found someone worth marrying, IMHO.
Ow, boston !

I mean it as a feminist -- not just personal -- issue because a single-parented family should be considered EQUAL TO a two-parent family. A man is NOT essential to that family (nor is a woman, for that matter, but since the great majority of single custodial parents are women, I'll stick with the woman's perspective). A man's place in my life could equally be a nonmarried, noncohabitating companion, as an EQUAL -- just different -- place to "spouse". And for boyfriend, or anybody else, to suggest that my family would necessarily be improved -- not just made different -- by the addition of a man, is anti-feminist, anti-strong-solo-mom. That's what I mean by "feminist issue."

I'm lucky to have a great daughter. I'm lucky to have folks who love me. But whether I *choose* to marry somebody, and whether he *chooses* to marry me, is hardly luck. It has nothing to do with the *quality* of the relationship, but whether marriage fits each of our lifestyles, that determines whether a particular relationship leads to marriage, IMHO. After all, none of us are choosing to marry the people we love most in the world: our kids. :LOL Marriage with my child (or my female best friend, say, to choose a less inflamatory example) doesn't "fit" me -- for legal reasons, sure, but mostly because we are bonded in a way no court or preacher could ever pronounce -- and marriage with my boyfriend doesn't "fit" me, simple as that. It fits you, sure, but please don't make a value judgement on the quality of my relationship versus yours, based on your choosing marriage and me not. It's JUST a CHOICE.

Thanks, pynki .

trinity6232000 , WOW! I LOVE your post! Thank you!

Gotcha, L.J. . I don't have any shame or hesitation in saying my family is perfect, single-parented -- guess you figured out my bias by now -- but I'm surprised that a fella who openly chooses a very open feminist (me) as a companion would still have this archaic notion. Sigh.
 
#7 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Seasons
Ow, boston !
a single-parented family should be considered EQUAL TO a two-parent family. A man is NOT essential to that family (...) And for a boyfriend, or anybody else, to suggest that my family would necessarily be improved -- not just made different -- by the addition of a man, is anti-feminist, anti-strong-solo-mom. That's what I mean by "feminist issue."
well, I am a single mom & I think I now know what you're saying...a single parent family is as deserving of respect as a "traditional" family. but that's not what I got from reading your first post. I was hearing that your bf wants to move on to the "next level" of committment with you, and you are resisting. If you think having him join your family will not improve it, then by all means, don't add him! But I believe there *are* situations where a family *can* be made better by having someone else join it. This doesnt mean that single moms are incomplete. It just means that there is something to be said for a truly loving and supporting relationship. I didnt mean to sound harsh, sorry about that.
 
#8 ·
I'm sorry, too, for reacting harshly. Truce? I'm testy and oversensitive, I guess.

Marriage CAN be a family improvement, for some; it can be a family detriment, to others; it can be a difference-without-value-change, for others. I have no problem with that; choice is what feminism's all about, right? That's why I say I respect others' choice, or perhaps my boyfriend's eventual choice, to marry. I just DETEST the (his) assumption that marriage is a better choice for ALL single-parent families.
I hate that even the seeming "good guys" still have this residual rescuer caveman crap that they haven't therapied out. Sigh.
 
#10 ·
My sister put off her guy for years and years. Then, she decided she was tired and wanted more help and that getting married was probably a good idea. Her d is almost 18.

Now HE doesn't want to.

The only thing I worry about is how do I teach my d to have a healthy realtionship?

I decided not to date for many of the reasons you list, freedom being number one. But I also didn't want her to see a parade of relationships. Plus, there are so many lunatics out there - any you never can tell ... I just don't want to expose her to all that sickness.

But to address the original question - Is it feminist to say- "I can do it all without a man"? Sure it is. But when other people would like to see you get married, it's because they want to see you with another income, and someone to help out, someone for you to grow old with and all that "stuff". It is the way is supposed to be. Just doesn't always work out for all of us, does it?

Your relationship sounds like it isn't made in heaven. You don't love him enough to want to marry, and he seems emotionally dependant on you. When and if it's right, you won't have to question it.

Sorry I took so long to get over here. I have a big sale on my website and worked through all weekend to get it all set up. But I'm here now!

Carole
 
#11 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by CaroleP
Your relationship sounds like it isn't made in heaven. You don't love him enough to want to marry, and he seems emotionally dependant on you. [/b]
Hm. That's not what I'm getting at all from Seasons' post. What I'm hearing (correct me if I'm wrong, Seasons) is that she does love this man and he her. She just has different ideas about the way their relationship should look than he does. He sees marriage as a natural and important progression to the "next level." She sees it as either a lateral step (something different, not better) or something detrimental to her quality of life. It's not about her feelings for the man at all.

I'm with you, Seasons. I'll admit that I, also, was confused by your first post. I had the same feelings upon reading it that Pynki did - that the differences in your goals are personal, not societal. Well, they're societal in the sense that his goal is accepted as the norm and yours is not. And that's where your second post helped clarify. And this is also where I am. Now that I'm two years separated and almost officially divorced, I very much get the feeling that others think my family is somehow lacking and have the expectation that I'll be doing what I can to remedy the situation. I certainly don't feel that way, though. I'm elated with my freedom. It doesn't mean that I don't want a relationship. I do! I just don't want a husband. And I'm fairly certain that I don't even want to live with another man. And I definitely don't want more children. My mom is the only one that gets it.
 
#12 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonfly
What I'm hearing (correct me if I'm wrong, Seasons) is that she does love this man and he her. She just has different ideas about the way their relationship should look than he does. He sees marriage as a natural and important progression to the "next level." She sees it as either a lateral step (something different, not better) or something detrimental to her quality of life. It's not about her feelings for the man at all.
This is my understanding as well, and I respect Seasons for sticking to her guns on this subject. Let's face it: marriages fail at an alarming rate, and divorce has repercussions through all parts of our society. If Seasons is not 100% in favor of marrying this man, then she is right to stay single. Interesting aside..... there is a growing movement of "blessed to be single" people within evangelical churches. For a distinctly un-feminist, very traditional church, this is an interesting development.
 
#13 ·
You have it exactly, Dragonfly & Soul-O .

I'm not saying there might be other, personal issues; or that we'll definitely live our lives "together" [assuming we can figure out a together-mode]; or that we definitely won't; or that I'll have exactly the same plans for my family in one year or ten. But my boyfriend's assumptions about family really struck me as worthy of discussing with other single moms, here. We moms talk a lot about our own slow progress toward independence, learning what we want as a person and a family. Well, those we love -- our parents, friends, even romantic partners -- might be progressing even more slowly, yet not maliciously. I find it all -- interesting. Frustrating, as love often is.

So yeah, CaroleP -- she's another, long-term single mom BTW -- I suspect that my boyfriend in part means "being a family" with me to mean

Quote:
want[ing] to see [me] with another income, and someone to help out, someone for [me] to grow old with and all that "stuff".
He means well, I'm sure. But just for me personally -- I respect those who disagree for their own personal situations -- that extra money & household help is too expensive because it costs me freedom and pride. I'd MUCH rather lead my family myself. Respectfully, I do disagree with you (and apparently my boyfriend) that

Quote:
It [boy-girl marriage] is the way is supposed to be. Just doesn't always work out for all of us, does it?
I don't think there's a particular "supposed to be" structure for families -- just IMHO.
 
#14 ·
I think this is a really interesting dicussion.

I think it's both a personal and a societal/feminist issue. I have thought about this a lot as I get to the point where I might start dating. (My son is 2, and now spends one night a week with his dad.) But I have to say that "dating" sounds like a big evolutionary step backward to me right now. Of course, my dating paradigm is from my childless 20s, and I'm now 37, so some of it has to do with me remembering what that was like and saying "Well, it was fun at the time, sort of, but REALLY feels wrong now."

I just feel so competent and aware and able to cope with almost anything now, and I feel like presenting myself as a possible mate or partner to someone is like pulling the rug out from all that. (Hmm, maybe that's why my marriage didn't work...) I guess even in my 20s I had a very hard time reconciling my strong feelings of independence with having a boyfriend; they just don't seem to go together, and that's the feminist issue--the way things are set up, the man gets his esteem from rescuing and supporting and otherwise keeping his woman in a separate, idealized sphere which doesn't have much to do with the real world. They might say they want independence, but for most guys that effectively eliminates most of their role in the relationship. But, it is also a personal issue--I know that I personally have a big problem with this, and have just not found a way to successfully combine the two, to the point where I don't even know if it's possible. Both my husband and my LTR before that ended up having affairs with women who were totally opposite from me--calling crying at 3 am, abusing drugs & alcohol, & basically being helpless, distraught beauties who needed someone to rescue them. I am so NOT this person, but it's obvious that even men who really liked ME also find this appealing.

I do think a lot of men are not so happy with this scenario either, actually, but that they just don't know what else to do. On the other hand, it's hard to argue with being worshipped or needed. (I just never knew why simply being loved, without the dramatics, was not enough for them.) Maybe it will be different now that I'm older, though--at least I hope so. I have a feeling, however, that it's going to be a while--my standards are so high, and my tolerance for crap so low, that I don't expect anyone who fits the bill to just appear anytime soon. And the longer I'm single, the more feminist I feel...

This didn't directly address any of the family/provider stuff, but it's I guess a related issue.
 
#15 ·
fuller2 , are you sure we're different people?

Quote:
Both my husband and my LTR before that ended up having affairs with women who were totally opposite from me--calling crying at 3 am, abusing drugs & alcohol, & basically being helpless, distraught beauties who needed someone to rescue them. I am so NOT this person, but it's obvious that even men who really liked ME also find this appealing.
Wow, that is my life!

You hit it on the head: some men want a different model, too. But what is that? How can a man be healthily in love with a feminist? Any feminist lesbians here wanna chime in with suggestions on what different models have worked for you?
 
#16 ·
Seasons I really felt you on this issue when I read and replied to your post earlier. I thought about it all evening while I waited for dd outside of dance class.

I never have felt somebody really feel me on this issue before. I was secretly comforted all evening knowing somebody felt the same way as I do.

I have plans, goals for my future. Not a forever plan, but I designing a home at the moment to build on my parents land, when dd is older I would like to move into the city again and rent a place for a time, I would like to live in New York city with dd for a year at some point. I could go on.

All these dreams/plans I never envision a man beside me. When I think about being old, I sometimes think about having a man to sit on the porch with and drink tea, but mostly it's just me I see in my future. Dd will have her own separate life someday, and I see myself traveling and relaxing but I never feel that man beside me, till death do us part.

I like to date. I love men. I mean I LOVE men
I envy your relationship (except for the new issue your both feeling). Somebody to call sometimes (not into the daily "how was your day" calls) and see if they want to go out and enjoy each others time. That sounds nice. Maybe I dated myself to death in my early twenties?

Over the weekend a bunch of friends met up to celebrate another friends birthday. We were joyful when somebody mentioned that I don't date enough. It was all in fun, and love. They love me want to see me happy. But I looked around at one married couple who don't want to have children, and are always being asked why not. Another couple whom have been living together/dating for about 10 years now, with zero plans to marry, and a single guy friend of mine who never dates. I respect all of their lives, and choices, YET me the single mom needs to find a man?

I am not saying that I would never get married, I just don't feel it's right for me. I don't know if I ever felt it was right for me. I just never thought about it much. Plus I don't see anything wrong with other people getting married. To each his own. I happen to love weddings. When a friend got married and asked me to be a bridesmaid I was excited that the dress had a train, cause I don't think I will ever have a reason to wear such a dress again.

I do (please please don't flame me this is just a honest observation) think it's odd that Seasons post led to so many people believing that her not wishing to "progress" with her relationship, that there is something wrong with her relationship. Why is it expected of everybody in a relationship to at some point marry or cohabitate. Some of us aren't looking for that, doesn't mean we think those who choose to marry are wrong, it just isn't for us. We could change our minds, we might not. But why the judgments? Why does there have to be a "problem" in the relationship if a woman has no plan on marrying a man she dates for a long period of time? Isn't there something to be said with being happy with what you have in the present, with no changes to come? Said with a
 
#17 ·
Well, I got alerted to this thread through soul-o's blog.

First, I think I agree that this is both a personal *and* a feminist issue.

For the presonal part, Seasons, when I was at your place this weekend and was hanging out with your bf in the corner of the yard, you were on the deck, and he drew everyone's attention to you to point out your digital camera belt...saying he got your old one stolen, and you wear the new one all the time...talking about your love of pictures... and I was so struck with the knowledge of... WOW! This man really, really, loves her! The look in his eyes when he was mentioning you, the tone of his voice. It was one of those rare glimpses we get of someone else's devotion.

That said, I think that for him, yes, this is about his needs for something further. PErhaps he's afraid of losing you. Or maybe just wants more of you...all the time.

And this is where feminism comes into play. I admire you for setting your boundaries and sticking to them. And I agree that there is a let-me-take-care-of-you dynamic among many men, because of societal representations of single-parent families.

Also, everyone constructs their own reality based on their own experiences. If you are looking at this issue through a feminist lens (and I would, as well) while some are not, I think that speaks to the impact or lack of impact differential treatment has played in their lives. Meaning maybe it's more about our own belief systems than other people's. But then again, maybe not. Dialogue is important with me to find out how they fiew the single-mother family and all that.

Some poeple have contributed some incredible stuff on this thread, and I'm coming in late and odn't have much more to add.
 
#18 ·
Yes - I do think there is that pressure. I have been thinking about this a lot lately, as I've gone in circles imaging what I might want in the future -And, even if it is in the cards for me to be married again. sometimes i feel a little like Katherine Hepburn, or something, lol. Just stubborn, and independent, difficult to live with and maybe, just better solo. course, now, solo with DS.
And, would that be so horrible? I mean, I would LOVE to have a companion. And someone that I could be in LOVE with, intimate with [I remember that feeling, once, eeeons ago, lol], so that DS could SEE and visualize what that is and looks like and feels like. I REALLy want that. But to be married again? I really don't know. IF, I thought I could manage on my own, I'm not sure I would want that. I have a home, and and wonderful son - I'm going to be 40 in June - so the odds of me having another child... pretty slim. and i'm OK with that, really.

So... Does that make it a feminist issue? I guess in some repsects - I know that in some respects I'm leaving this marriage on the basis of that I think - I feel completely like AXH needs to *own* someone, rather than have an equal. So, maybe, if I could find someone who didn't perceive marriage as that way, it might work, but how do you know, until you're married? It's pretty difficult, I think - at least for me - I'm slow, LOL.
 
#20 ·
Yeah don't you just love it when people say " Don't worry you're still young ..... (only just) you'll find someone (as if I'm looking) and you're attractive (whoopee) " I just scowl and say " Am I attractive now?"


You know this whole thread has reminded me of a male I know having an affair with another woman, wife and children at home - wants to have his cake and eat it.....society just laughing or maybe wagging a finger. OTOH woman who are honest and direct about what they want WITHOUT hurting anyone are considered to be somehow strange ???????????????????????

I'm right there with you - I cannot imagine even living with anyone never mind being married. I'm experiencing too much peace and balance.

Each to his / her own.

This thread is really interesting.
 
#21 ·
A pretty feminist friend of mine is getting married soon (to a really nice guy) and she was sort of stunned at how quickly the ten tons of cultural baggage about marriage come crashing down on your head as soon as you put on that engagement ring. Even when you're aware of where it comes from (we both study history), even when you have spent your adult life trying to live in a different place, even when your husband-to-be doesn't appear to care!, when you become a "wife," you are diminished somehow, both to yourself and to society. This happens when you become a husband too, of course, but at least men don't start feeling like they have to give up work they love, or agree to move away from family and friends, or suddenly become fascinated by china patterns.

I don't know. I wonder if men aren't a lot more insecure than they let on most of the time. I try to imagine a man who is just himself, not trying to impress me or make himself out to be someone he's not to get my attention, and it's difficult. I feel pretty burned out these days on men who are just playing games, even when they're merely trying to make me like them. I mean, when I'm in the mood this kind of flirting is fun--but it's hardly something to base a real relationship on. I guess I live now in such a real world, if that makes sense--what is more real than sitting outside with your 2-year-old talking about ants, leaves, butterflies, birds?--that bringing in someone who isn't "real" is not at all interesting. That's why the thought of dating is so tiring. But of course men say this too--being "manipulated" by the women they're seeing is such a common complaint. (The other one, of course, being that women are always trying to make them over.)

I often think of that part in the Continuum Concept where she says that because of our screwed-up detached childrearing style, as adults we are constantly looking for someone to replace that primary parent and give us that truly imtimate bonding. "I'll be your mother if you'll be my mother," is how she describes the deal a couple makes with each other. But this never works, because your partner is NOT your parent! When my son was a baby I had this huge AHA! moment. The love I felt for him, the way I wanted to help him find the best way in life, to support him and be there for him all the time--I had been putting that kind of energy into my relationships with men. But it was the wrong outlet for it! And the way we now date well into our 30s or longer now without having kids just makes it worse.

I mean, having someone in my life could be really nice, and now that I have a proper outlet for all that motherly energy, I feel like I might actually do a lot better job now. (What's the fatherly version, I wonder?? Here we have the problem, of course, of men's long tradition of putting children and women in the same category...)

My best relationships have come from men who were my friends for a while first, so maybe that will happen eventually. But even with them, something happens when you cross that line--I do it, they do it. That ton of bricks falls on your heads. I can't believe it's biological, because how could something so screwed up be evolutionarily advantageous? I had been married for several months and my husband was getting incredibly moody. Finally it came out that he was feeling pressure--FROM WHERE??--to get some 9-5 job, wear a tie, and move to the suburbs. (He's a musician & carpenter.) I was like, "Hello??? It's ME, the one who writes and works in a bookstore, wants to live in a cabin in the woods and would live in a cookie-cutter suburb over her dead body! Where the hell are you getting this idea??" Where? Why? I still think this is part of the reason he split up with me--and it was never what I even wanted.
 
#22 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuller2
My best relationships have come from men who were my friends for a while first, so maybe that will happen eventually. But even with them, something happens when you cross that line--I do it, they do it. That ton of bricks falls on your heads. I can't believe it's biological, because how could something so screwed up be evolutionarily advantageous? I had been married for several months and my husband was getting incredibly moody. Finally it came out that he was feeling pressure--FROM WHERE??--to get some 9-5 job, wear a tie, and move to the suburbs. (He's a musician & carpenter.) I was like, "Hello??? It's ME, the one who writes and works in a bookstore, wants to live in a cabin in the woods and would live in a cookie-cutter suburb over her dead body! Where the hell are you getting this idea??" Where? Why? I still think this is part of the reason he split up with me--and it was never what I even wanted.
AHHHHH I am LOVING this thread. My split from dd's Dad had many
issues, but one was what you describe above, and the major issue that
spread to the further issues. When I found out I was pregnant Dad was
so excited. Within a week it was like he was possessed by the power
of normalcy. I was bartending/managing a restaurant by day, doing music
gigs by night. He was apprenticing at a tattoo shop by day, and doing
his art to make ends meet. All a sudden he was putting a HUGE pressure
on me to get married, NOW! He had actually asked me the night we
conceived dd, and I said if you and I are together one year from today, I
will gladly go anywhere you wish and get married, no ceremony, vegas,
justice of the peace, what ever, but not now. But now that I am pregnant,
carrying his seed in me everybody was like "Marry him, marry him now,
what are you crazy?". We had known each other for 6 years at this point,
the first two dating exclusively, then my work in music got to him (the
attention-after every gig when I would come home he would be sitting
there drunk, asking me who flirted with, who I was f**kin) and things went
bad. I left and we dated off and on, always in each others life, but had just
recently got back together (actually, dd was conceived on our first date of
our new beginning)
.

He was expecting me to pack up, and move to him. He wanted to quit
his apprenticeship and wanted me to give up music. He started to
interview for full time 9-5 jobs. I sat there asking over and over, what he
was trying to accomplish. He was becoming a different person, somebody
I never expected him to be, somebody I truthfully didn't like very much.
I thought he should keep his position at the tattoo shop. I tried to convince
him that babies the first year really don't cost as much as people like to think.

Sleep with Mama and Dad-already owned a bed, drink from Mama-free,
clothing from consignment shops and hand me downs. I had plenty in
my savings to carry us while he finished learning his skill, and then started
making money of his own. We ended up breaking up within 4 months, he
was mad I didn't appreciate all he was "giving up" and I kept telling him I didn't
want him to give up anything. He told me I hurt his pride as a "man" because
I wouldn't marry him, and I was prepared to support us. Turns out, this is the
same man who has never paid a dime in child support.
So I did end up
supporting myself and dd alone after all.

IF (big IF) I ever get married I don't want to look at this person and be thinking
"WOW, I am soooo in love with this man". I want to look at him and be smiling
like I just stole something and think "How COOL is it that I get to spend the
rest of my life with my best friend". Two complete people coming together,
because they enjoy each other so passionately,not because it would make
their life greater or easier. I don't want him to change, I don't want to change.
This is the way I come, take it or leave it.
 
#23 ·
Quote:
When I found out I was pregnant Dad was
so excited. Within a week it was like he was possessed by the power
of normalcy.
I am LOVING and learning from the wisdom on this thread, but for avoiding-being-a-thread-hog reasons I'll just focus on this point by trinity & fuller2. This EXACTLY mirrors my experience; within a week of toasting our new, planned pregnancy, my now-ex-husband bolted (into the arms of a single friend of mine). He married her, but they have no children and are living up the spendy-yuppie-singles life. I'd tried to understand and anticipate this common male reaction to pregnancy -- I rented the bad Hugh Grant movie, "Nine Months," on the subject and bought him a dad's guide to pregnancy -- but in the end, I guess it was too powerful. In the end, his leaving for this reason really helped me process the divorce; a guy who leaves his wife AND his kid, isn't leaving them as much as his own image of himself as a flawed father.

But much as that realization brought relief, it brought distrust: the men in MY experience [no, not all of them!] cave when change comes. They don't stick with the team. And that's what I'd want out of commitment, partnership through the changes. Because with a kid, you don't have the luxury of caving. You HAVE to keep parenting; you can't leave for the weekend, y'know?

I've been thinking of what "partnership" means, after all. Many traditionalists, and even some of us pre-singlehood, joined with a partner based either on joint future goals [usually a shared home and children] or joint past experiences [those precious, bonding "firsts" of discovering independent adulthood together]. For me, just regular social dates, a commited Saturday night, isn't really partnership; it's more of a social arrangement, like an exercise buddy. So if you take away the "usual" joint goals and sharing, what's left? How can you partner with someone without living with them, without co-parenting your children with them? Do you just blindly say, "well, we care for each other's welfare, we'll each be there to hold the bucket during flu or revise resumes during unemployment"? Does that work?
 
#24 ·
I think we can have any kind of relationship we want as long as it works for all parties involved. I'd like to think that we live in a time when almost anything is possible.

I think that the logisitics of who lives where, what the relationship looks like, whether or not it is legally binding, etc. is irrelevant. The most important part of the relationship is that two whole people come together, remain true to themselves and are better as a sum than as the separate parts. Not to say that we are somehow less without a partner......just to say that what the relationship creates as a whole is even better than the parts alone. I feel that way about motherhood. I know I am a better me as a mother and as a family, the sum of us all together is greater than separating us all into little parts.
 
#25 ·
I'm coming in late to this thread... my computer has been down for daysssss and I've missed it. Hmmmm Seasons you have me thinking.


I do think that on one level it is a personal issue. He has a right to want more, just as you have a right to say no to that. Very often two people have differences in their desires for their relationship... it sounds like you are clear that you are not willing to compromise what you want just to satisfy him, and I think that's really good.

I do think we don't exist in a vacuum, and I am interested in how your dynamic with your partner is influenced by the culture in which we live - that he is talking about wanting to take care of you, for instance. It sounds like he wants more with you, and the way he sees to do that is to take on the traditional masculine provider role. And your desire to maintain your family as it is, is not understood by many, and so not validated, because the assumption in the dominant culture is that a family is not "complete" unless there is a male "head" of the household, a father/husband figure.

I am reminded of my own family, and the approval I feel from strangers when they see myself, my daughter, and my babydaddy interacting. He shows interest in her, she shows love for him, and people smile and gaze glowingly upon us in coffee shops and in public places. The usual assumption of course is that he is my husband, and I feel approved of, considered a "good girl" somehow by other people.

I have decided I don't want another babydaddy, and if I get pregnant again (and I hope to) I am going to do it via a sperm bank. Then I plan to be a welfare mama of two for several years - I am fantasizing a t-shirt that says "Dalton McGuinty [our province's premier] is my babydaddy." The image cracks me up, and the idea of getting pregnant intentionally without a babydaddy feels VERY badass, like possibly more badass than I have the courage for. Single mama-dom intentionally seems revolutionary, and much much much more radical than having a baby with a *** friend. Because there is something so safe about having a man involved, in terms of experiencing acceptance, even tho IME the man has been nothing but a major pain in the ass.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Hope this ends up making some sort of sense.
 
#26 ·
I'm not a single mama, and I hope I'm not butting in here.

Seasons, have you read Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman? I thought of it right away when I read your first post. The narrator of the novel discovers and visits an isolated country where there are only women (they reproduce parthogenically). He ends up engaged to marry a woman from this country, and they conflict about this very issue: he, being of Victorian American society, presses for them to share "a home", and she doesn't see why. She points out that they have her house and his house, and they can spend as much time as they like together in either one of those places, and struggles to understand the idealized concept of "home", and woman-as-chatelaine-of the-home, that he holds so dear.

So yes, I do think it's a feminist issue, and apparently it's been one for a while :LOL
 
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