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Why do I even bother?  

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I have been having some weird feelings about discipline lately and I wanted to share, in case anyone else out there ever feels this way.

The question- Why do even bother asking or telling my dd to do things?

The whole cornerstone of the idea of "Discipline" is getting your children to do/not do stuff. But I am starting to feel like nothing I have ever done "discipline"-wise has ever made a difference.

Well, I suppose dd understands better about carseats, toothbrushing, the road, hitting, and MAYBE sharing than she would have with no guidance whatsoever, but other than that I don't think my expecting/nagging/reasoning/cajoling/or even forcing has had much of an impact.

The thing is that dd is actually pretty well behaved. Certainly she doesn't do anything out of the ordinary for an almost three year old. But I wonder if my attempts to encourage/mould her are akin to how I talk to my computer when my internet is slow.

I say "Come on, COME on" to the screen as if somehow I can make the computer go faster. I feel like telling dd to do stuff is the same way- she's going to get where she's going either way, but as a "good parent" I feel the need to press her forward. Ugh- I annoy myself when I do this!

Example- We went through a phase of being very insistent that everyone sit at the table for dinner. It involved whining, convincing, tantrums, time outs (which I have realized are pointless), etc for many nights. Finally I decided that making an issue out of it was making it worse. Now I don't even tell dd it's dinner time. And guess what- she wanders over and sits down on her own!

(I can imagine her little brain when I used to announce dinner in my most saccharine encouraging voice- "No REALLY mom? Is THAT why all the food is on the table and everyone's sitting down"- I don't know if 2 year olds have sarcastic thoughts like that, but I sure would.)

Likewise- I sometimes worry that I'm not doing enough to make it clear to dd that I expect her to clean up her stuff. I invite her to clean, encourage her, etc. Well, today I did nothing and went to go work and dd cleaned up all her paints, brushes and got out a sponge and washed the table.

Maybe there are some other kids out there who are more malleable? I hear stories about children who don't mind being told what to do- and are actually more likely to do something when told than otherwise. Maybe my next one will be this way.

But dd is an island unto herself. I wonder sometime if I'm becomming a negligent parent because I'm starting to think that best thing I can do for dd is not say anything.

Anway- I feel like I'm washing my hands of the whole concept of discipline. Something must be going right because dd is growing and developing just fine. But heck if I know how it's happening!
post #2 of 15
I know how you feel! I do think that to some extent what we label 'discipline' is really just finding a way for the parent(s) to fulfill their needs. Some methods of doing this don't care about the child's needs and others are very careful to take the child's needs into account, but I'm convinced the real purpose is just to help the parent get his/her needs met. That's not a bad thing, but I think its worthwhile to call a spade a spade, y'know?

For example, rules surrounding cleaning up the house, going to bed at a certain time, your rule about the dinner table - all that seems to me to go toward fulfilling the parents need for order. I think if you see that for what it is, then you can start to balance your own needs against each other - "Am I enforcing these rules to fulfill my need for order at the cost of my need for peace?" You can decide, hmm, I would rather have a peaceful household than an orderly one, and try to find with other ways to fulfill the need for order. Some things you won't compromise, especially those surrounding the need for safety, for example.

Okay, I'm just rambling, but I do think its a very interesting concept.
post #3 of 15
I totally agree. This is how I try to be with my 3 yr old DD. I don't MAKE her do things like sit at the table for supper, clean up after herself etc... Sometimes she does it sometimes she doesn't. I know she will learn to do what is right for herself.

I will only step in if she is going to hurt herself or someone else or if she is going to cause damage to something. I try to treat her with the same respect I give to any adult.

She rarely has meltdowns. We have a pretty peaceful home (this carries over my relationship with DH as well because we treat each other with more respect).

I figure the time it takes for me to stop her from doing what she wants and going through a tantrum can be much better spent helping her get what she wants.

You know what? She "behaves" just as well and often better than a lot of other children I see whose parents are always telling them what to do.

The difference that I see in the long run though is that she will learn to trust herself to be able to make her own decisions
post #4 of 15
Thread Starter 
I guess the thing I'm feeling it's pointless to push is obedience.

My dd is pretty well behaved, cooperative, considerate, etc. But obedient she is not. And nothing I do is going to change that IMO.

I guess I feel that rtaditional discipline is very obedience focused. It's not a big value of mine (though it would be convenient at times.) It's hard for me to recognize that what I'm doing is working when dd is totally defiant of disobedient. (even though, in general, she does what I hope she will do.)

Does that make sense?
post #5 of 15
If I'm understanding you correctly, I don't think it's the "discipline" part you feel you "needn't bother with". So, for example, you are disciplining your child when you sit at the table each night and eat YOUR dinner. She sees you doing that, and eventually will want to model that. Just like my daughter started putting her little toys to bed and laying there giving him "milkies". I've certainly never told her to give her toys milkies, but she sees me doing it all the time so why not?

I know not all issues are that simple, but I definitely believe in picking my battles. It really does make for a peaceful household. I have to keep reminding myself that 'discipline' means "to teach" and that doesn't have to involve "obedience". It just involves showing them what needs to be done, and letting them find their own way there.
post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo
I guess I feel that rtaditional discipline is very obedience focused. It's not a big value of mine
Obey/Obedience are definitely trigger words for me. I do not want to teach my child to obey! I think that is the problem with a lot of society today - too many people have been taught not to question authority. I don't see how you can expect a child to obey you without question and then be able to think for themselves the moment they leave the nest.
post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo
I guess the thing I'm feeling it's pointless to push is obedience.


I loved the example of the dinner thing. I think the more we just sort of go about life, and show our kids how it goes, they just follow along.
post #8 of 15
mommyofshmoo, I think we're having a very similar (if not the same) thought processes these days. Have you been reading, "Unconditional Parenting" by chance?

I have to say that I'm pretty frustrated with how our society views the idea of "discipline." It has indeed become less "teaching" based from which the word itself originated, and more "technique" based. I too with a GD slant of course, have searched for this or that technique to basically get compliance in the moment. What I realize is that usually my need for compliance is heightened when out and about, because I'm more concerned about what other people are thinking rather than what DS needs in the moment. In other words, MY problem, not his. Moreover, the word "discipline" is often used as a synonym for punishment which makes me very uncomfortable.

There is a great quote from Alfie's Kohn's wife in the book I mentioned, something about, (paraphrase), "I can't seem to make the children do as I say, without resorting to things that are not at all appealing to me." Something like that anyway. Indeed, lately when things get hairy, DH and I are starting to ask the question, "Maybe it's not that he's not obeying, and it's more what we're asking of him." KWIM? And so much of the time it's about checking ourselves first. I came home from the store the other day, and DH pulled me in the kitchen and told me that he and DS were having a major power struggle about cleaning up some crayons DS had dumped in the kitchen (they were playing the part of a snow storm apparently). DH tried to engage some cooperation from DS to clean up and DS flat out refused. DH says to me, in the absence of coercion, consequences, whatever, how do I handle this? I asked him what he said to DS and he said and the conversation went like this:

DH: In our family, when someone makes a mess, they clean it up.
DS: No reply.
DH: Buddy, when mom and dad make a mess, who cleans it up?
DS: Mom and Dad.
DH: When DS makes a mess, who cleans it up?
DS: Mom and Dad

The thing is, most of the time DS is very good about cleaning and helping about the house. He's not a huge mess maker to begin with, which is also a plus. He thinks nothing of grabbing a towel when he's spilled something, and usually loves cleaning up when we make a game of it. Most of the time. Add to that, DS had a horrible intestinal infection this past week. Awful. The day in question here, he was still healing and in general, out of sorts. Prime time for a power struggle, and indeed, a time when Dad might want to think better of engaging in one.

And lastly, with regard to DH's comment that when we make a mess, we clean it up, I had to walk DH around the house arm in arm and gently point out things like, his dishes on the counter that had been there since the evening before. His kleenex on the floor in the bath NEXT to the trash can. His pile of running clothes on the bench by the front door, etc. etc.... cased closed.

Anyway, lately I've relaxed about so many things. Like you said, goes my thinking: my DS is reasonably well behaved, but he's not perfect by any means. Hm, sounds like most adults, eh? I was musing with a fellow mom the other day, that our society not expects our kids to be minature adults like ourselves, we want them to behave BETTER than we do. We expect so very much from our kids in this society and from day one when they can't deliver for no other reason than our expectations are not anywhere near developmentally appropriate... yada yada yada. I could go on, but I've made a habit of rambling on the boards way too much lately. Must. learn. to. consolidate.

At any rate, excellent thread/discussion topic and yes, I'm right there with ya!

Regards,
Em
post #9 of 15

Listening and Obedience

I am reading the posts on this thread and I agree with the sentiments.
But on another note, I do wish that my dd's would not necessarily "obey" me, but yes, I do wish that I had some confidence that their listening and responding would improve. All too often, their "lack of obedience" comes through as not listening and in case of an emergency (the overactive imagination of a mother) I do wish that I could instill in them that their responsiveness to my authority is important.
post #10 of 15
Maybe discipline is more like how language develops. We don't correct them when they use less than perfect grammar or vocabulary because we don't want to make too big of a deal of their mistakes. We speak to them, we read to them and for the most part, their diction and vocabularly and grammar are going to be as good as the people that raise them. Maybe we should just teach behavior by example and be much more patient. Joey is so polite and cooperative and sweet but then he has a three year old moment and throws a fit because he can't understand why I want him to take a bath for the first time in... I admit, weeks. So- this is not something he is going to cooperate with, he hates them. This one I just have to do to him, and know he will hate it. I get so frustrated that he isn't cooperative all the time but realistically, of course he isn't. I think mostly we should focus on our own behavior and they will turn out pretty good.
post #11 of 15
Thread Starter 
Yes Embee, many of these thoughts stem from U.P. I'm starting to sound like a broken record methinks, but I really think so many of these issues are worth considering.

ITA with PP that said that much of the time the word "discipline" is used interchangeably with "punishment." It's really problematic. The fact is that punishments do very little to create good behaviors IMO. Very much the same way that jail tends to increase the criminal activity of those who go there, punishments can totally backfire.

My current problem is that I feel a tremendous pressure to correct my dd about stuff that I don't feel she can understand at this age. It's like I feel I have to show other adults that *I* know what the right behavior is. It's totally juvenile.
post #12 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo
Yes Embee, many of these thoughts stem from U.P. I'm starting to sound like a broken record methinks, but I really think so many of these issues are worth considering.
You and me both. I can't stop posting about it, talking about it. recommending it, etc. Hey by the way, have ya read that new book by Alfue Kohn? Its in a word, excellent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo
My current problem is that I feel a tremendous pressure to correct my dd about stuff that I don't feel she can understand at this age. It's like I feel I have to show other adults that *I* know what the right behavior is. It's totally juvenile.
The pressure. Yes, I hear you. This is something I struggle with all the time and I hate it. I'm sure we're not alone and yet, overall, the pressure exists. Unconditional Parenting, for a lot of reasons has helped me to relax and focus less on this, and more on what DS needs, but I have moments where I know my focus is totally skewed and it takes everything I have to turn it around. And, if I'm tired, if I'm hormonal, I have a difficult time doing that. Today was one of those days. Ugh. I'm currently amidst a serious internal guilt fest. Truly loathing myself right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMoMpls
Maybe discipline is more like how language develops. We don't correct them when they use less than perfect grammar or vocabulary because we don't want to make too big of a deal of their mistakes. We speak to them, we read to them and for the most part, their diction and vocabularly and grammar are going to be as good as the people that raise them. Maybe we should just teach behavior by example and be much more patient. Joey is so polite and cooperative and sweet but then he has a three year old moment and throws a fit because he can't understand why I want him to take a bath for the first time in... I admit, weeks. So- this is not something he is going to cooperate with, he hates them. This one I just have to do to him, and know he will hate it. I get so frustrated that he isn't cooperative all the time but realistically, of course he isn't. I think mostly we should focus on our own behavior and they will turn out pretty good.
Ok, this is beautiful, and exactly what I needed to see today (it was a rough one). I've definitely had thoughts along these lines, and you've expressed this sentiment perfectly, with an excellent analogy. My only wish is that society as a whole could wrap their minds around this concept. Let kids be kids, not be so hard on them or expect so darned much. The pressure is overwhelming on them, on us. And the majority of kids I meet are all so beautiful in their own ways. Not perfectly behaved, but exactly how they should be any given age. I admit, I do get wrapped up in what others are thinking at times and while I hate myself for it, I can't always reject the thinking out of hand. But that's no reason to stop trying.

(Had to giggle about the difference in our boys. Your kid won't get in the bath, my kid won't get out. I think his record is 3 1/2 hours. )

The best,
Em
post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo
But dd is an island unto herself. I wonder sometime if I'm becomming a negligent parent because I'm starting to think that best thing I can do for dd is not say anything.
My dd is just the same way. I can encourage her and suggest the course of direction, but order her about, no. I posted just today about what we do when we need to go home from the park. I just tell her "Hey, dinner time now. I am walking away slowly with your little sister, I am sure you will catch up with us". Period. No micromanaging. Especially no ordering: "Time to go, get off the swing".
In fact, she knows full well what she should be doing. In all circumstances, she really does know that she should not hit her sister, should not put her food in her glass, not eat the paint, etc. I mean what normal 4 years old does not know that eating paint is not OK?
So what is the use of repeating this a thousand times over? Just one: creating conflicts. I do not mean that I am allowing her to do all the above and more. However, I try to be creative in terms of getting her to comply, and in my best days, things go very well just by playing around things, defusing tensions, etc.
One thing that struck me - however - with Kohn's book is how odd it is that parents in general (and for once me included) focus so much on behaviour and so little on moral education. Explaining to dd that people have feelings and how she may hurt people's feelings or make them so very happy is honestly not something I have done much so far. So, I think one of the message from his book - at least for me - is stay silent as mommyofshmoo says on trivial things that dc they know so well and instead do some talking on profound values that we are trying to transmit.
post #14 of 15
Thread Starter 
I tried yesterday to work on moral development when dd didn't want to share a toy. I didn't force her to share, but did point out the girl's face and said- Doesn't she look sad? Maybe we can find another toy for her to play with...

I played with the other girl with another toys while my dd played, then when dd finished, the girl took a turn.

The thing is that when we left the play area dd told me "I'm sorry I didn't let that girl have the toy." I said, "Well, we came up up a good solution in the end. Maybe next time we can come up with an even better solution." That made dd really genuinely happy.

What I did didn't effect any change at the momen, which was pretty charged, but did leave a lasting impact- which I think is more important.
post #15 of 15
: This is a great thread. Thanks for all the food for thought, mamas. Keep it up.

Jill
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