GD and table "manners" for 20 month old: and do you say "that makes Mama angry?"

[Elijah's Mom]

Hi all,

Elijah is definately in the "testing whether Mama means her limits" phase -- and it is such a wonderful and difficult challenge -- to help him internalize limits, to feel safe that an adult is limiting his world in a predictable way and yet, to enable him to feel expansive, exploratory, etc. WOW!

So ... when I'm certain in my gut about a limit I need to set, I have no problem setting it. In such situations (involving hitting the cat, putting stuff in my printer -- Elijah already broke one b/c I wasn't careful, hitting me in the face), I have little difficulty being emotionally available, open and all of that great Mama stuff. In such situations, I usually need to both verbally limit Elijah and then gently take his wrist and move it from whatever he is doing ... either to show him another way or to stop him from touching it, etc.).

BUT ... when I am confused about what is reasonable to expect and also confused about a natural consequence/GD route, I find myself reverting to old, not particularly useful family-of-origin ways of dealing. In particular, I am most confused about table manners.

Generally, Elijah is wonderful at the table ... exploratory in all the usual ways, but he loves eating, he loves to be at the table, he doesn't dump things all over his head, etc, he is learning to cut his food and uses utensils, drinks from a real cup, etc. ...

However, lately, his limit testing has been around table rules (we have two: 1) water/milk is to be for drinking or sitting in the cup, not to be dumped on the floor or playing with and 2) food can be anywhere on his mat or in any variation of bowls he wants to play with them in ... but not thrown on the floor.

Today, for example, Elijah looked at his milk glass ... fingered it ... looked at me. I said, "milk is for drinking, Elijah." He looked at me ... smiled ... and spilled it very deliberately on the floor. Now I KNOW he was testing me ... his scientific skills oriented on my reaction and not on gravity. In response, I took him out of his chair and said, "that annoys Mama and I think you are done eating, or else you wouldn't be playing." Something about this feels off ... maybe because I don't want to deprive him of food/drinking if he is still hungry; or maybe because I couldn't think of an age appropriate natural consequence ... and this felt disconnected?

What would you do and what is kinds of natural consequences do you carry out with table issues?

Becca

[LoveBeads]

Originally Posted by Elijah's Mom

Today, for example, Elijah looked at his milk glass ... fingered it ... looked at me. I said, "milk is for drinking, Elijah." He looked at me ... smiled ... and spilled it very deliberately on the floor. Now I KNOW he was testing me ... his scientific skills oriented on my reaction and not on gravity.

Have you thought about getting him a cup with a lid? I think that it is key to avoid as many frustrations as possible and there is no reason why you have to clean up spilled milk - you can buy him cups with lids so that issue will go away.

Secondly, I have to disagree with your assessment that he is testing YOU. I think he is testing, but not you. I think he is testing to see what happens to milk when you spill it, what happens to mommy's face when I spill it, what happens to the floor when I spill it. I don't believe that he is thinking "this is going to piss mommy off so I'm going to deliberately disobey her".

I think the first thing is to assign him the most positive of intentions. He is a normal, bright and curious child who wants to explore the way his world works. A huge part of that is figuring out how you react to things - after all, you are the center of his world. But he is not doing is to make you mad.

I don't see a problem with labeling your feelings to DS and I do think that he is probably done with dinner when he starts throwing food :LOL . When DD would do this, I would cheerfully declare "okay, dinner is over" and take her out of her highchair. I would also hand her a wet paper towel and ask her if she would help clean up the floor which she was always thrilled to do.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Almost 2 is certainly old enough to at least "help" with the clean up from a deliberate spill, or a careless one for that matter. Milk gets spilled, milk must be cleaned, he who spilled it must help. After that, I think its appropriate to inquire about whether he is done or wants more.

And, of course, you never pour more in the glass than you are willing to clean at any given time.

[sadie_sabot]

My dd has done a fir amount of deliberate pouring. and yet I ahve no advice :LOL We mainly use sippys with lids, unless I'm feeling adventurous.

I don't tell dd "that makes mommy angry." i read somewhere that you want to avoid giving your child the idea that they control your emotions...first so that they don't then intentionally try to manipulate your emotions ( mor eof the scientific typw testig and what not) but also so that they don't come to feel like they are responsible for your feelings, ie, if you are sad, it is their fault, etc...that's a heavy load for a kid to carry.

Huh, actually now that I think of it I do sometimes tell dd i am angry or frrustrated or whatever, but only when i'm really feeling it strongly.

[lilyka]

How about instead of saying "mom is mad/irritated/anoyed" you just say "I said 'that is not what milk is for' you are all done with milk "

I do thinkhe is old enogh to test yoru boundries. First bear in mid that consistancy is everything. once he sees the boundry is firm he will move on. seconly you may have to teach a lesson 100 times. before they get it. each time you teach it just think of yourself as one step closer to him learning (instead of one step closer to losing your mind )

If you know he is being espcially testing of some boundry (table manners perhaps and i think for the record, that those are perfectly reasonable expectations) I would stay a little bit closer to him so that you can catch him before he actually crosse the line. So instead of waiting until the milk hits the floor you can stop him as soon as his finger starts heading toward the cup. That way he is very clear on where the boundry starts. it isn't when the milk hits the floor. it i whenever you chose to play with milk. Does that make sense?

[Elijah's Mom]

Hi

Thanks for your responses. I think the issue for me was less what I actually did and more that I felt angry and punitive -- "why isn't my child listening to me" -- so my rational thoughts about his motives (see below) weren't enough for me to not feel as though I was being punitive.

First, I very much agree that Elijah isn't spilling milk to make me mad ... that is not at all what I meant. The point I was trying to say was that his exploration of the world and causation was not, in this case, about what happens when milk spills (i.e. gravity), but instead, "what will Mama do?" That, to me, isn't a negative thing at all and I certainly don't think of it as manipulative. But it is testing his world and me ... as the central part of his world.

For that reason, I think it is important that I am consistent and need to figure out what to be consistent with.

In terms of wiping up his spills ... actually, we already do that all (its totally normalized between us) when the spill is on the table, etc. but do you all think it would be appropriate, when he deliberately spills onto the floor to affirmatively take him out of his table-attached chair and have him wipe it up then and there? And then what? Put him back in to finish if he wants to? I like the poster's idea about handing him a cloth afterwards ... I just hadn't done that when it goes on the floor. Hmm...wonder why that didn't feel "right" to me?

About sippy cups ... Elijah absolutely hates them ... and really really loves drinking from a grown up cup. I don't want to stop that because he seems so proud when he drinks successfully from a cup.

On expressing anger/etc.... hmmm...I see the point about not making kids feel responsible for our feelings. They aren't. BUT, I also think that part of natural consequences and part of natural socialization (as opposed to coerced kinds) is to let kids know that their actions DO make people feel certain ways. That is part of teaching him about his world and also, in my view, about teaching him about his own feelings. "It makes you sad when X doesn't let you take a turn with his truck," for example. This is a really tough question, I think.

Becca

[captain crunchy]

I completely agree with Lovebeads' response!

Secondly, about feelings, I do think it matters how you say it. I would probably never say to my children "It MAKES me mad when..." or "it MAKES me sad when..."

I feel that is kind of manipulating and putting my own feelings on the children or anyone else for that matter. I don't believe people *make* you feel certain ways. I believe you allow people to evoke a reaction from you. In other words, does a wife "make" her husband angry enough to hit her? Extreme example I know, but that is the spirit I mean when I say that...

I am completely in agreement that children should know how we feel, how their actions effect us, etc...however, I prefer to use I statements without assigning blame.

"I begin to feel angry when you spill milk repeatedly." "I feel sad when you hit me because hitting hurts."

Instead of "you make me..."

It may seem like a small semantics issue but I do believe there is a big distinction.

[allgirls]

My DD did almost the same thing with her glass of water(she likes to drink with an open glass and protests..it's just water so waht the hey) but yesterday she deliberately poured it on the floor...it was so hard not to :LOL but I kept a straight face, calmly went and got a towel and had her wipe up the mess. I said "please don't pour water on the floor" and that was the extent of my reaction because I think she was doing it to see what my reaction would be. She wiped it up, came over and said "sawwy mama" and that was it.

After she went back to playing her sister(she's 11) and I cracked up! :LOL :LOL cause it was such a deliberate thing and somehow so funny!

It didn't make me mad and I certainly wasn't going to tell her it made me laugh. If she does it a lot I am sure I will get frustrated and I am sure she will know when I am frustrated.

I think children need to understand that their behaviour causes reactions in people...it's what we want to teach them...that we don't do certain things because it hurts people's feelings.

[Daffodil]

When I talk to my dd about what I do or don't want her to do, I don't usually bring my own emotions into it. If there's something I don't want her to do, there's a reason for it, and I guess it makes more sense to me just to focus on the reason. "You can't hit people because it might hurt them." "Don't dump milk on the floor because it makes a big mess."

I've never really thought about it consciously until now, just did what came naturally, but now that I think about it, I guess I don't want my daughter to feel like the main reason to do as I say is to avoid making me angry or sad. I'd rather have her think about the reasons behind what I say, and listen to me if the reasons make sense to her.

I don't know if this will make sense to anyone else, but if milk is repeatedly getting spilled, the fact that I'm angry about it seems sort of irrelevant to me. I mean, the REAL problem is that it's making a mess, right? And the anger is just a side effect, so focusing on that just confuses the issue.

[Elijah's Mom]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I completely agree with Lovebeads' response!

Secondly, about feelings, I do think it matters how you say it. I would probably never say to my children "It MAKES me mad when..." or "it MAKES me sad when..."

I feel that is kind of manipulating and putting my own feelings on the children or anyone else for that matter. I don't believe people *make* you feel certain ways. I believe you allow people to evoke a reaction from you. In other words, does a wife "make" her husband angry enough to hit her? Extreme example I know, but that is the spirit I mean when I say that...

I am completely in agreement that children should know how we feel, how their actions effect us, etc...however, I prefer to use I statements without assigning blame.

"I begin to feel angry when you spill milk repeatedly." "I feel sad when you hit me because hitting hurts."

Instead of "you make me..."

It may seem like a small semantics issue but I do believe there is a big distinction.

This makes a lot of sense to me ... I think you are right and I'll frame things differently. Thanks!

[sadie_sabot]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I completely agree with Lovebeads' response!

Secondly, about feelings, I do think it matters how you say it. I would probably never say to my children "It MAKES me mad when..." or "it MAKES me sad when..."

I feel that is kind of manipulating and putting my own feelings on the children or anyone else for that matter. I don't believe people *make* you feel certain ways. I believe you allow people to evoke a reaction from you. In other words, does a wife "make" her husband angry enough to hit her? Extreme example I know, but that is the spirit I mean when I say that...

I am completely in agreement that children should know how we feel, how their actions effect us, etc...however, I prefer to use I statements without assigning blame.

"I begin to feel angry when you spill milk repeatedly." "I feel sad when you hit me because hitting hurts."

Instead of "you make me..."

It may seem like a small semantics issue but I do believe there is a big distinction.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about, I hadn't thought about it in awhile and had kinda forgotten, so I'm glad for thereminder...yeah, my dd doesn't MAKE me feel anything, but I do feel certain ways when certain things happen...

[asrmom]

I find myself saying "mommy does not like that" when my daughter does stuff like tipping over her cup. Anything inappropriate with that?

[sadie_sabot]

I don't think "mommy doesn't like that" is inappropriate, but it is probably more useful to offer a different reason to not do something, ie, don't dump your milk because it wastes milk and makes a mess...saying mommy doesn't like that only offeres pleasing mommy as the reason not to do it.

[Proudly AP]

Originally Posted by Elijah's Mom

Hi

On expressing anger/etc.... hmmm...I see the point about not making kids feel responsible for our feelings. They aren't. BUT, I also think that part of natural consequences and part of natural socialization (as opposed to coerced kinds) is to let kids know that their actions DO make people feel certain ways. That is part of teaching him about his world and also, in my view, about teaching him about his own feelings. "It makes you sad when X doesn't let you take a turn with his truck," for example. This is a really tough question, I think.

Becca

i agree with what you've said here. they are not responsible for our emotions or reactions. we are. to that tune, i say, 'i feel really frustrated right now that you're not/doing X'

when describing situations like the one above, i would say, 'you feel sad when X...' i might throw in a description of what i see that suggests DC is sad (frown, hiding face, crying...), for clarity.

i have a 3 yr old, with whom i am certainly NOT winning any mommy of the year awards these days. sigh. i have trouble with getting her motivated to listen to me. i love the suggestions above, and have ordered both playful parenting and unconditional parenting.

[Piglet68]

Before I get to answering your question, can I just say that I loved your first paragraph - what a wonderful, loving, positive description of GD!!

I also loved what you wrote here:

Originally Posted by Elijah's Mom

... when I am confused about what is reasonable to expect and also confused about a natural consequence/GD route, I find myself reverting to old, not particularly useful family-of-origin ways of dealing.

This is so true for me, and I don't think I really understood that until I read what you wrote. Thanks for clarifying something I struggle with too!

Now, to your question. I think what doesn't feel right to me about your response was when you said "I think you are done eating, or else you wouldn't be playing". To me that is sort of assigning his own emotions and thoughts to him. Like you are telling him what his state of mind and/or body is. I'm betting this is probably what you didn't feel right about, too.

I have been known to say something "makes mama feel very angry". And that is usually those situations where I'm rapidly losing my self-control, and almost certainly due to what you wrote above about being unsure and reverting to old, ingrained patterns.

What I would do is simply repeat the rule "Elijah, milk is not for dumping". If he kept it up I think I would explain to him that he needs to use a sippy cup until he can handle an open cup. For my DD, she really likes being able to drink from a big cup, so it's an incentive for her.

[MamaE]

DD (24 mos) also loves to pour and I do think it's a great fine motor skill, so I don't want to completely discourage it. I don't know if this fits within the parameter of your rule, but... here's what we do. We allow DD to pour her drink (always water, in our case) into a clean bowl or into another cup. If it looks like it's getting out of hand, I would set it back from her reach, but usually this controlled pouring seems to satisfy her urge. She has never tried to pour anything onto the floor. Another thing I do is offer her a small creamer type pitcher so that she can pour her own water into her own cup. She LOVES this, esp. since she recently started wanting to do everything herself. The water usually ends up getting poured back and forth several times between the pitcher and the cup, but hey, I can tell you this 2 y.o. is a master pourer! :LOL HTH!