A Very Angry Child

[Snowy Owl]

My daughter, five and a half, has recently gone through a few traumatic experiences. Moving-- and in the process losing most of her beloved toys and clothes due to a travel accident-- her baby brother soaking up all this love and attention -- having to say good-bye to her teacher and new friends her dad's stressful new job which has managed to extract him from our lives.

She lashes out and behaves in horrific ways, though I try to give her outlets for her feelings and a lot of empathy.
She cut up something I sewed when I put her in for a nap.
She hits me and kicks me all the time if I tell her something she doesn't want to hear (no more cookies or some little thing). She spat in my face and told me she hated me when it was time to leave the play-center ( I gave her ample warning...to no avail). She acts downright insolent when anyone asks her to do something.

I tell her firmly that i will not be treated that way. I spend time with her alone, and she can be very sweet and amazing. But how can I help her with her out of control anger, and what can I use as a clear and immediate consequence for abusing or disrespecting me, her dad, and others?



Gotta go...thanks in advance!

[Dar]

Rain at 5 1/2 was very angry, too. She hit me, kicked me, spit on me... it was really rough.

Getting protein into at regular intervals helped some. I started making a point of setting out a little plate of cheese and crackers, or apple slices with peanut butter, or something like that... not saying anything, just putting it near her.

I worked on getting her to take things down a notch, rather than going for 100%. I was babysitting a toddler at that time, and she was very jealous and angry. Pictures of horrible thing happening to me (I have a great one of me under a huge pooping butt) or the baby I was watching were okay... I'd talk about how awful that would be, how stinky the poop looked, and we'd get into that... Sometimes she wrote notes about similar things happening to me, or about how much she hated me. I saw all of these as good things... she wasn't being violent and hurting me, she was trying to express her feelings.

In the heat of her anger, really all I ever found to do was remove her from the situation, physically stop her from hurting anybody or anything, and wait until it blows over. With Rain it was like a huge tidal wave of feeling, and after it passed she'd usually be very tearful and sad.... but it could take quite a while, like half an hour or more. I don't use consequences anyway but especially not in this case - she's not being "bad", she's being miserable and trying to make things better in the best way she knows. She needs better tools, ways to feel better without hurting people.

We talked a lot about being flexible, too, and about techniques for calming oneself. Ross Greene's book "The Explosive Child" was helpful, too.

I think it's great that you can see how her behavior is linked to her recent life experiences... that you can empathize like that. She really isn't trying to make your life miserable, she just feels so miserable herself...

I don't know if you're one of the people who didn't like to hear "this will pass", so if you are, skip this paragraph... but it will. By 6, Rain was much more able to control her body, and by 6 1/2 an outburst was a rare thing.

Dar

[Snowy Owl]

Dar- I appreciate what you had to say.
And actually, hearing 'this too shall pass' doesn't give one a course of action, but it does offer some perspective. Maybe I haven't made some horrible f-up after all. Maybe it's all kind of normal.... oh, and that's funny about her butt drawing. My dd just draws really scary faces looming over tiny helpless stick-people.

Something else I wanted to address was that nagging voice I sometimes hear that tells me that fresh, back-talking kids need a good spanking to put the fear of their omnipotent (impotent) parents back into them. That when she speaks to me with such disrespect and I do nothing except tell her I don't like it, other adults (grandparents) see this as weak--- she's spoiled, walking all over me.

And then I look up some anti-spanking websites to remind myself why it is I am totally against it. I especially like this:

http://www.neverhitachild.org/never.html

I can't hit, can't yell, can't punish, 'time-outs' are used occasionally but are generally inappropriate or ineffective.... these are what my parents used, what I was taught to know, so....what tools do i have at my disposal, really?

[mommyofshmoo]

Originally Posted by Snowy Owl

I can't hit, can't yell, can't punish, 'time-outs' are used occasionally but are generally inappropriate or ineffective.... these are what my parents used, what I was taught to know, so....what tools do i have at my disposal, really?

You have love, compassion, caring, the ability to listen. Some people would argue that these are much more powerful than punishments.


I do think that there may be times when you can't handle the behavior. At those times maybe you can take a time out for yourself. It's hard to do that without a child feeling as though you're withdrawing affection, but I think five is old enough for her to "get" that you need a break.

I'd also say that it's important to give her lots of opportunity for positive decision making-like choosing an activity for the day, or morning. Sounds like her sense of self is shaky. Maybe trying to get her interestedin something to focus on rather than how lousy she feels.

Anyway- not like I know anything, my kid is only 2- good luck!

[Jen123]

When my son hit me I used the ever powerful (while holding him) "it hurts when you hit mommy and you don't want to hurt mommy " or " because you threw a fit about the movies we will put them up high" . To use Dr. Phil langauge (because he says it better than I ever did)..."what is her currency ?". I had my son do pushups to exert his emotional energy. Having a physical outlet daily helped control his spurts with anger.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Jen123

When my son hit me I used the ever powerful (while holding him) "it hurts when you hit mommy and you don't want to hurt mommy " .

Except that, with Rain at least, she did very much want to hurt me. I think telling her that she didn't would have made her even more angry (if such a thing were possible) because it would have felt like a denial of her feelings.

I generally said things like, "It's not okay to... (hit people, kick, spit, whatever)." I would also physically prevent her from hurting people, and sometimes from hurting things, depending on the thing (kicking a tree was okay, kicking the TV was not). I stayed to keep my voice calm, and to respect her wishes if they weren't irrational ... for example, sometimes she's tell me, "Go away!", and I would, even though that wasn't really the way I wanted to be spoken to. Yelling "Go away" was better than hitting me, right? One step at a time... and we did get to, "Could you please give me some space right now?" eventually.

It feels like there should be some sort of follow-up, I know, but my experience was that things worked better if there wasn't. I treated her violent outbursts like some kind of seizure, maybe, or an allergy attack... an issue that was difficult for both of us, that we were working to get under control.

Once Rain was in explosion-mode, there really wasn't much to do besides waiting it out and keeping everyone safe. The time to work on it was beforehand... either during a quiet moment, when I could bring it up and we could make a plan together... like, "Remember last week, when it was time to leave playcenter and you spat on me? That wasn't okay. Can we make a plan for playcenter this week, so that leaving will be easier for both of us?" In the beginning, you might have to suggest more things... maybe plan something fun for after playcenter, or maybe some specific words to help her remember the conversation, or maybe she'd like different 'warnings', like 5 minutes, then 2, and then 1... my experience was that often *having* a plan was more important than what the plan actually was, and having her be part of making the plan gave her that control that she needed.

I'd also suggest helping her make plans for when she felt explode-y. Rain and I had a code-word for a while, which either of us could use, when she seemed to be getting close to the edge. If one of us said it I'd back off whatever I was asking and help get anyone else around to back off, too (although she only exploded on me), and give her a few minutes to get herself together.

She really didn't take adavantage of these things, either.... I know some people think kids will, but she really didn't.

The Ross Greene book I mentioned talks about putting issues in three "baskets" - the A basket for non-negotiable stuff, the B basket for stuff you're working on with your child, but you're not willing to provoke a meltdown over, and the C basket, for things you're just letting go for now. In the beginning, C should be the biggest basket, with A the smallest. The B basket is where most of the work happens... it's a great book, really.

I agree about taking time-outs for yourself, if you need them. We called it "taking a break", because the work time-out has such an icky connotation. I think it's good for parents to model this - I'm overwhelmed and don't want to yell or lose it, so I'm taking a break. That's exactly what we want our kids to do, right?

No, you're not messing up as a parent. You're doing the right thing, trying to respectfully help your daughter work through this in a way that doesn't destroy her spirit. It is so, so not-easy, I know, and there were time I would just sob and wonder what I was doing wrong... no one else had a child spitting on her , and kicking her. Rain had also gone through a lot of transitions at 5, and she was an intense child from the start... and so I muddled through and eventually found things that seemed to help a little... no miracle "cures", but small steps, and eventually the problem went away.

Dar

[PM]

My dd just turned five. She seems to be coming to the end of her angry phase. Yippee! But it lasted a looong time, and it took a lot of work -- between the two of us. We both had work to do!

What has helped us most is talk -- about emotions and their sheer force, about triggers, about anger and sadness and fear being perfectly normal, about better ways to express those, etc. Now she talks so much about all her stuff that sometimes I think she really needs therapy! :LOL I mean she has all the normal emotions and stuff -- I just get to hear about them more than many mamas.

The most useful tool I have found so far is telling her exactly the words to use to express her anger, "Honey, instead of hitting me and screaming, you could say, 'Hey! That makes me really angry. Please stop doing that.'" This has helped so much! I can't even believe how much it has helped.

The protein idea works really well. Up until a couple of days ago I was into a kind of preventive mode, where I was trying to anticipate her moods and know exactly when to give her that dose of protein, etc. Doesn't work! The platter with foods is a much better idea.

Hard physical activity would work wonders. Unfortunately, we just don't have the opportunity here. But if I were you I would try to get her onto a peewee soccer team or I would sign her up for gymnastics, swimming or self-defense.

Like Dar, in the heat of the moment, I need to remove myself from the situation (protect myself from being hurt) -- not sit there and let myself be hit a hundred times, repeating over and over "Oh that hurts mommy. Hurting is not okay." I have said, "I need to get away from you because you are hurting me." Ideally, this should be said calmly. I also need to engage her in something (role playing, karate chopping for fun, a craft, water or sand play if I can manage, etc.). Shifting the situation always works.

Massage, low lights, soft music is great for quiet times. See if you can check out a book on child massage (harder to find than infant massage books). Use calming scented oils (real flower essences, not Victoria's Secret stuff! )

Another idea is the Turtle Method. You have the child play that she's going into her shell until she feels calm. Inside her shell she can count or just be quiet. She can use her t-shirt as the shell and put her head inside. No one should talk to her until she feels ready to come out. This doesn't work for my child because she gets angry and shouts, "But I'm NOT a turtle!" But I've heard it's been used in schools (It's from the book about emotional intelligence by Daniel Goleman).

Umm...what else? Notice the good stuff! Let her know that you notice -- "I really liked how you handled that situation today!"

Another thing I've been saying to dd when I'm on the brink of exploding myself is to tell her, "You know when you hit me (or whatever) it is sooo difficult for me not to get angry!" That way she knows that I'm working hard at controlling my anger too. And just saying that, hearing myself say it really calms me down.

About the "you don't want to hurt mommy:" what Dar said! Yes, she does want to hurt me. It's human nature. I'm trying to help her control that perfectly natural impulse.

My dd is perfectly aware of her anger, her reactions, and her struggle to do better. It's great to have a very open dialogue. Bedtime is a good time to talk about how the day went. Dd started this herself. If she or I screwed up we can talk about it and come up with solutions. Sometimes I'll ask, "What do you think I should when you...?" Sometimes she'll come up with a total cop-out solution for herself ("just give me a kiss" or some such thing -- which actually isn't such a bad idea, if you think about it), but sometimes she has some very good ideas.

This has all got to be a lot tougher when you have another child around! Remember! Dar's Rain and my dd are onlies!

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by Snowy Owl

She spat in my face and told me she hated me when it was time to leave the play-center ( I gave her ample warning...to no avail).

I see you are working hard on these issues, and you should feel good about what you do. Try not to feel that your daughter’s behaviour is the meter by which you can judge your own work with her. Anyway, I just wanted to say specifically that you should try to be as non-confrontational as possible and avoid all battles of wills. For example, the playground thing. One thing that works well for my daughter is to avoid having her to publicly lose her battle against me. Instead, I will say, “it is time to go. I will walk away slowly with little sister and I am sure you will catch up with us by the time we turn the corner”. It’s a very small thing, but, 1) it leaves it up to her to decide exactly when to stop swinging, 2) it proves that I know she can leave by herself and does not need mommy micromanaging her life. The same when another child wants a turn at the swing, I say that the girl looks sad, and so, I am sure that while I am gone with little sister some other place I will look again and she will be on the swing. Sorry it is such a stressful time for the both of you

[Snowy Owl]

Well, it's sure nice to come back here and see all this great advice.

Anyway, I just wanted to say specifically that you should try to be as non-confrontational as possible and avoid all battles of wills

:LOL

That is what I find most difficult. I can be flexible, often, but when in battles of will I find it very difficult to let go sometimes. Like when I say, it's time to go now, or clean up that mess like you said you would, I can see she doesn't like being bossed. I dislike being bossed, and I dislike being a bossy parent. Sometimes I just can't be creative, fun or sweet. My tone of voice is less than ideal and I say "Do it or else!" I don't want to be that kind of parent...
I just want her to comply without a fuss, like some idea I have of a well-behaved child.

I'm interested in this whole protein thing. I think I will try to observe any dietary connection there might be-- she has allergies, too.

Also, she is one of these super-sensitive kids that has a fit if there's an itchy tag or sock lump.

One of the most useful things I have discovered, by the way, is that animating dolls, toys or objects and speaking to her throught them brings her
right out of her shell. If a sock begs her to wear it in a falsetto voice, she can't refuse. If I beg her, of course, it's a power struggle.
And she talks happily on to these things as if they're real friends. It amazing, really, the imaginations kids have.

But, once again, when stressed or angry, it's difficult to be playful.

And when she just swats me when I tell her she can't have something, I can't prevent it sometimes. And she looks smug when i react. It's like a bad habit and I want to change it.
I don't generally believe in sticker-training, but maybe I could try something like that.... a sticker for everyday there is no hitting? And after, say, ten stickers, a prize? I've never tried anything like that.

It is, I agree, important to involve children in coming up with solutions, hearing them out without criticism and in fact I have discussed this with her. Regarding hitting, I think she said she needed hugs and kisses. Maybe I should hug her and kiss her the next time she hits me?

Parenting is so...counter-intuitive sometimes. It's true what they say...you can't always depend on instinct to guide you, because so much of instinct stems from mistaken cultural upbringing. Like the instinct to hit children, or the fear of other races. It gets mistaken for intuition but it's not.

We always have to get so darn philosophical.

Anyway....

Thanks again for the helpful insights everyone!

[Proudly AP]

have you read raising your spirited child ? i am currenntly reading it, and finding insights into my dd's eords and actions, as well as some strategies.

i feel for you. my dd is 3 and very intense and sensitive and perceptive, and i feel i am struggling at times, too.

she's very lucky that *you* are her mom, rather than a slap-happy person.

[Dar]

She sounds so much like Rain at that age... the making-things-talk deal worked for us, too, forgot about that one! She was also very imaginative...

One nice thing about the baskets deal is that it helped me feel like I was still in "control" a bit, too... I wasn't letting her boss me around, I had consciously decided beforehand that behavior X was Basket B or Basket C, and I had chosen not to push her on it. My choice, not hers.

If you go with the sticker-type thing, I would get her involved in setting it, up... start by asking if you think something like that would help her remember not to hit, and then if she says yes ask her what kind of set-up she thinks would work best, and have her be in charge of administering it. You don't give her a sticker, but she can give herself a sticker. I'm generally not in favor of stuff like that, but as a temporary method to help short-circuit a specific behavior pattern, I think it can be of some use...

Maybe "hugs and kisses" would be a good code word? ;-)

Dar

[PM]

I think stickers won't teach her a thing. Sorry, just being blunt.

[momadance]

Dar, reading your replies has really been helpful for me. My ds is going on 4, and it's so hard to remember that when he's hitting/kicking/telling me to shut up or calling me stupid, the best thing to do is love on him. He melts in my arms if I just respond with love. It's so hard though. I lost it tonight. (thread by me about screaming at him) I should've focused on "time in"

[Snowy Owl]

A very angry mama

Right now I'm just so angry with her. I can't stand it when I go out of my way all day to be cheerful and patient despite her determination to be disagreable. And as I sat down just now to color with her and do some homework, she did everything she could to push my buttons--scribbled on my drawing because the colors were wrong, poked me with markers, threw the book to the floor, squirmed around making faces when I tried to talk to her and wore the smuggest little expression when I got mad. Why does she get a rise out of that? You would think she would prefer to interact in a positive way...I was available for it. So I got angry and told her it was nap time and dragged her kicking, screaming self upstairs into bed. Baby woke up. It took her five minutes to fall asleep, so it was related to needing sleep, I think. But she's halfway to six. Isn't that a bit old for needing naps all the time? She hasn't been getting up early.

Yes, Parismaman, I'm honestly not into the idea of sticker discipline in general. Except that stickers are pretty, I like them and so does she, and it is a shared activity that could potentially break a bad habit. I haven't felt inclined to take any action in that direction as of yet.

Right now, *I* need a sticker.

Yes. I will make a sticker chart for myself....everytime I stand up to her tests gracefully, without yelling or getting my panties in a knot, I get a sticker. And then I get ice cream.....

[Dodo]

Snowy Owl, I clicked on your photos and I think that I have the 3yo version of your daughter: same glasses, same hairstyle, same kind of dress, and a lot of the same behaviours. It's so funny to look at a photo of a very little girl and to match the image with the behaviours.

Anyway, I just wanted to address your last post. First, acting cheerful when you are not might be weird for you and your daughter. Could you find a calm way to express your true feelings instead of pretending that you aren't having them? Second, I've had the same experience of encountering more bad behaviour when I'm changing my approach. Maybe that's at play here?

Good luck to you!

[PM]

Too funny, Snowy Owl! You go get yourself some ice cream, honey! :LOL

I remember when dd was your dd's age. Now, I'm not the most cheerful person on earth. And I've been worse these last couple of years. I remember one evening I said to dh, "I don't think you can imagine what it's like to live with a person who is in a bad mood every gd day, all day!" And then I paused. And then I said, "Um, nevermind."

It was an excellent moment for my "personal growth," though! :LOL

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by Snowy Owl

I just want her to comply without a fuss, like some idea I have of a well-behaved child.

I am not sure I understrand why my earlier post made you laugh. I know my dd will not comply when she feels bossed and it sounds like your daughter is the same. That's why I find more creative ways to deal with her, as I explained in the example of leaving the park. If you just want her to comply without a fuss, then I really have no advice for you.

[mamasarah]

Originally Posted by Snowy Owl

.

Right now, *I* need a sticker.

Yes. I will make a sticker chart for myself....everytime I stand up to her tests gracefully, without yelling or getting my panties in a knot, I get a sticker. And then I get ice cream.....

:LOL boy do i know the feeling!

hang in there. it sounds to me like you're being very patient about this situation.

[Snowy Owl]

Originally Posted by gaialice

I am not sure I understrand why my earlier post made you laugh.

I hope you don't feel I meant to mock you...I guess I was saying "yeah, I wish I could simply decide to avoid all power struggles." The problem here is the divide between speaking and doing...easier said then done.

And so when I said I just want her to comply without a fuss, I realize that this is not reasonable of me...I am trying to be honest with myself about what upsets me and why.

Dodo...isn't that funny about our dds. Actually she is about to get new glasses-- we just picked them out yesterday and we'll get them next week. They are more...mature and sophisticated and a lovely bright blue.

About the 'cheerfu'l thing, I'm *not* the false cheerful type. When i am upset or hurt, I don't try to pretend otherwise. However, parenting advice I respect advises to speak to misbehaving children in a pleasant, cheerful voice when re-directing them or explaining what is not acceptable behaviour. e.g-- if dd demands in a nasty voice that I do something for her, I explain cheerfully that I would prefer to be spoken to politely. The purpose of controlling one's voice this way is to get out of the habit of using a nagging, irritated, or scolding voice with our children, which is , I think a serious problem with parents....I learned it from mine and must deliberately unlearn it, right? Tone of voice, they say, can be more important than the words spoken.

So this is what I am talking about.

A couple of books I recall that address this very well are "Children: the Challenge" by Drekurs and the famous "How to Talk so Children will Listen..." By Faber/ Mazlish.

Oh, and after dd awoke from her nap yesterday we had a very pleasant evening and made a carrot cake with crushed pineapple. She got to mix the carrot into the batter with her bare hands, then lick her hands after. What kid wouldn't be in a good mood after that?