Dad who spanks - Page 5

[annettemarie]

I never said you wanted persmission, I said you were justifying spanking and looking for validation.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by Ican

Human beings are all different. They respond to different ways of discipline

First of all, of course all human beings are different. I'm sure they would respond to all manner of discipline, including torture, withholding food, pinching them, kicking them, as well as redirection, gentle discipline, discussion, family meetings, etc. As a parent, our responsibility is to not only find out what "works" or is expedient, but what is just and loving. Hitting a child is not treating that child is a respectful way.

Secondly, my point was that I don't understand how my statement

Not if it involves hitting a child, not here at Mothering.Com. Every community has its own rules and standards, and advocating spanking in any way, shape, or form is unacceptable here.

makes the assumption that every child is the same. There are limits, are there not, that we would all agree are completely out of bounds when it comes to discipline. For example, we could all agree that burning a child with a cigarette,even if that method of punishment had the desired effect of "working" to change the child's behavior, would be crossing the line. It would not be a matter of parental choice, or community standards, it would just be plain wrong. This particular community has drawn a line at spanking.
Annette

[Mamid]

Why do pro-spankers never respond to points like these:

Because we can't debate it with you according to the rules of Mothering Dot Com. You're allowed to advocate all you want about how perfect GD is and how horrid spanking is but we can neither defend spanking nor talk about it in general even in the non-GD forums, never mind attempting to advocate for it.

When we do rise to the flame bait we are left open to being banned from Mothering Dot Com for daring to even state our views.

We don't need either validation or justification on how we discipline our children. What we need are alternatives that we can work with when reasoning, talking to our children and time outs don't work anymore. If you don't want us to spank, then give us alternatives that we can use that will work.

Folk here have offered many suggestions for alternate forms of discipline. We've tried them. Some work, some don't. No form of discipline works all the time. Not GD, not spanking. You have to custom craft your discipline to the child and to the moment in time.

Penalt piped up from the couch : If we limit ourselves to GD, we take away tools that are affective for us at times. They may not be affective for you, but they are for us.

I'd suggest before you reply to me that you go look over the user agreements.

[bec]

I was spanked as a child. Not often, but sometimes. It happened when my parents were at the end of their emotional rope. Strung out and tired, and simply unable to find a more creative way to deal with the situation. They are not violent people. They are very loving and gentle, for the most part.

My take on this is that spamking is a failure in parenting. Plain and simple. It doesn't mean the end of the world (or at least it doesn't have to). But make no mistake, it is not born out of love and fellowship. Frustration and anger, yes.


Bec

[mum2sarah]

If we limit ourselves to GD, we take away tools that are affective for us at times. They may not be affective for you, but they are for us.

I don't know how many different ways to say this:

GD is not ONE kind of discipline, nor is it LIMITING in any way. It is an umbrella term for a HUGE MULTITUDE of discipline tools and methods.

[Penalt]

Its a philosophy. It is a type of discipline, as has been said to many times.

[Calm]

I just wanted to pipe in here and say that I have noticed that to be true too - that as soon as a person tries to defend their reasons for spanking, the guidelines are pointed out. Right at the point where we could save one child from spanking if we continued the discussion and gave decent alternatives. Decent alternatives are often given, true, but so is just plain flaming, which achieves nothing. I for one want to be given opportunity to "redirect" this behaviour, not punish it.

Now, to the point at hand. My best friend spanked her child from the age of 7 months. It got worse as time went on (strange how his behaviour didn't change, but spankings had to be given more frequently). I gave her lots of options, and over the months, she too said, "nothing else works". I discussed with her, "what do you mean by 'works'?" and she explained that nothing she does stops his behaviour. I asked what behaviour? She said that he empties the refrigerator for example, for no reason, food all over the floor. Nothing had stopped him from doing it, she had tried admonishing, explaining, redirecting, time out - all of it, and then resorted to spanking.

I offered, "why not put a lock on the fridge? The nature of children is to explore, if there is something you would prefer he not explore - LOCK IT!"

No more need to punish for this problem.

For every single problem she had, I had a solution that didn't involve even punishment, let alone corporal punishment. So, forgive me if I don't fully trust the argument "I have tried everything". Another thing I am interested in is how come children who are not spanked are just as, if not more well behaved than their spanked counterparts? Just a little food for thought.

I also am not comfortable with the ages at which parents feel it is ok to spank. For my friend, she felt that 7 months was justifiable. For others, this is shocking, "oh no, we couldn't spank a baby, we wait until they are about 18 months" then others say that a young child is ok to spank. Where gentle discipline has a very structured guideline to follow that is age appropriate with each milestone. Redirection for babies. Attention, child-proofing and prevention for toddlers. As examples, there are others.

My mother had five children, and spanked NONE of them, ever. A couple of them were handfulls and there were many fights among them, yet she never needed to spank. Why? Because she isn't an angry person. She didn't get ruffled by children's behaviour. She understood the nature of the child. She modelled kindness and gentleness. She hugged where others spanked. She loved during tantrums instead of turning to anger. She lived in a Zen like home so temptation was removed. She respected their explorations, and guided their intrigue. She relinquished her attachment to her preferred outcome (eg "I want this to stop") and instead listened, watched, queried.

We are attached to our desires. We WANT. When our desire is taken from us (a peaceful home, an anger free child, non-demanding children, things left alone, demands met) then we grasp. We grasp for that which we want. We demand our child meet our expectations. We demand our child be that which we prefer them to be. We feel loss. Instead of letting go, we cling. Instead of moving and molding with the child, mirroring their struggles - we oppose it, we struggle along with them.

My favorite saying for these discussions is:

if you are the mighty oak, strong and unbending, with a strong enough wind, you will be uprooted and killed.
If you bend like the humble reed, with a strong wind, you fold toward the ground, and survive to stand tall another day.

Flexibility. Its all you need. And my sig, it gets me through every problem with my child.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by Calm

I just wanted to pipe in here and say that I have noticed that to be true too - that as soon as a person tries to defend their reasons for spanking, the guidelines are pointed out. Right at the point where we could save one child from spanking if we continued the discussion and gave decent alternatives. Decent alternatives are often given, true, but so is just plain flaming, which achieves nothing. I for one want to be given opportunity to "redirect" this behaviour, not punish it.

Well, I guess I feel like Mothering.com is my "safe place" in a world full of detachment parenting. There are plenty of sites out there to support parents who want to spank. There are also plenty of places where a parent who didn't want to spank could find decent alternatives if they were trying to make that decision. And, if someone came to MDC and said, "I don't want to spank anymore, please, help me!" I would love to engage that person in a dialogue about positive parenting. But when people come here and don't even seem to know or care about the philosophy of MDC and start posting all about why they spank, and how we just don't understand their particular circumstances, and they are doing it with love, etc, I really don't think they are looking for alternatives, I think they are looking for validation.

[mum2sarah]

Originally Posted by Penalt

Its a philosophy. It is a type of discipline, as has been said to many times.

I maintain that it is not. For example, I dislike 1,2,3 magic because I feel it is too arbitrary and punitive and makes no connection between the action and the consequence in the child's mind (laying on your bed for a certain amount of time does not necessarily connnect to why you shouldn't smash your toy truck, but taking the toy truck when you smash it might). I also dislike the comparison to training animals because I feel it is disrespectful to the child's autonomy. I personally prefer non-punitive methods of discipline and natural consequences. That's my philosophy. It fits under the umbrella of gentle discipline, and so does 1,2,3 magic, even though my philosophy is so different from 1,2,3 magic. That these two dissimilar philosophies can both be considered "gentle discipline" proves that GD is not *a* philosophy or *a* type of discipline, but a term that encompasses anything that is not non-gentle; in other words, anything that is not violent...

[mum2sarah]

Calm,
I agree; I'd like to help "redirect" spanking as well....

So here's an idea for all you who spank who are interested in alternatives. Last week, I devised a flow chart of how I would respond to misbehavior in my toddler. Sure, I am not going to whip out my flow chart when I'm in the middle of a situation, but making the flow chart help me organize my thoughts in to strategies and techniques. It also helped me prioritize when to enforce (insist on compliance for matters of principle) and when to pick my battles (be flexible for matters of preference). It's a good way to brainstorm and help yourself have a little bit of a roadmap in your mind....

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by mum2sarah

Calm,
So here's an idea for all you who spank who are interested in alternatives. Last week, I devised a flow chart of how I would respond to misbehavior in my toddler. Sure, I am not going to whip out my flow chart when I'm in the middle of a situation, but making the flow chart help me organize my thoughts in to strategies and techniques. It also helped me prioritize when to enforce (insist on compliance for matters of principle) and when to pick my battles (be flexible for matters of preference). It's a good way to brainstorm and help yourself have a little bit of a roadmap in your mind....

This is a really great idea! Could you post more (maybe on the GD board)>
Annette

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Ican

There are differences in adults and children. I would not hit another adult unless I was defending myself of family.

That's a difference in you. Not a difference between adults and children.

Yes, there are differences, but there is nothing different in a child that makes them need to be hit.

I don't think your argument of cussing at the child or throwing hot water on them has any sanity in it.

Of course you don't. But why?

I didn't say anything about hurting the child as a punishment I said to establish boundries.

There are plenty of ways to establish boundaries. And whether or not you intend to hurt a child by spanking, that's what you do. Hitting hurts. Even if it's done lightly, the emotional assault hurts - especially to children. I watch my 3-year-old when he gets hit by a peer, and his face looks as though he's experienced the ultimate injustice. And that's just a peer hitting him - not a loving parent who he trusts to look out for his physical and emotional well-being.

Children have been being spanked for thousands of years so it must have some form of success.

Longevity is not always congruent with legitimacy. And it's certainly not a decent barometer for what is healthy or right or good. Humanity proves that over and over again.

If I ever thought it wouldn't work I would not do it.

Why does it matter whether or not it works? You are risking causing permanent damage to your child. You're gambling with their future emotional well-being. Whether or not it works in the present shouldn't even be a factor.

When I was growing up my mother spanked me and used swiches at some point and I have not a violent bone in my body and don't like physical confrontation.

You spank your child. So you are engaging in physical confrontation and acting in a violent manner. I'd say you have at least one violent bone in your body.

[bec]

Originally Posted by Calm

Flexibility. Its all you need. And my sig, it gets me through every problem with my child.

Calm, I have loved your sig since I first saw it. I try to follow it as well in my own life (maybe that is why it has spoken to me so much). When my own challenging and spirited 3 year old is acting challenging and spirited, I find that some deep and measured breathing really helps me remember who I am, who my daughter is, and how I want to live my life and treat the people in it.


Bec

[Calm]

"But when people come here and don't even seem to know or care about the philosophy of MDC and start posting all about why they spank, and how we just don't understand their particular circumstances, and they are doing it with love, etc, I really don't think they are looking for alternatives, I think they are looking for validation."

Annettemarie, I actually agree with what you said here. I like MDC because of their philosophy, and because they refuse to condone certain things. And I always avoid those posters who seem to be of that mindset. I engaged in this particular discussion as I picked up that Ican was looking for alternatives, he even said as much. He is grasping tightly at his method at the moment, which we all do, but he has shown a little flexibility, and so therefore, I am here.

Thanks, Bec. Being Here Now is my best disciplinary action, for myself and my child.

Dragonfly, nice post! Good food for thought.

[Calm]

In my previous post, I said, "I always avoid those posters who seem to be of that mindset." When what I meant was "those posts". Eeek, thank goodness I caught that one! I would engage in discussion with someone who spanks on a different topic, of course. But I won't bash my head against a brick wall if someone is convinced spanking is fine and doesn't want to know the other side, KWIM?

[Penalt]

"But when people come here and don't even seem to know or care about the philosophy of MDC and start posting all about why they spank, and how we just don't understand their particular circumstances, and they are doing it with love, etc, I really don't think they are looking for alternatives, I think they are looking for validation."

I could not disagree more with the above. I came to MDC specifically looking for alternatives. Just not in alternative disciplines. Mothering covers much more than just discipline. Yes, I have picked up on some of the alternatives to spanking. Usually when someone wasn't trying to beat me to death with a GD club.

Do I still spank? Yes, I do on occasion. Less or more since coming to MDC? Definitely less. Will I ever never spank? Probably not. Do I post saying I spank because I want/need validation? No, I don't need validation. I need my children to grow into happy, healthy adults preferably with better childlhood memories than I have.

Why post on MDC if I feel how I do? Because I know I don't know everything and am always willing to listen to alternatives. I have been researching things since I was 6. I can't stop now. Researching made me walk away from the religon I grew up in. Not because someone told me I was making a mistake, but because I decided what I was doing wasn't right for me.

If you want to change the disciplining patterns of people like me, Mamid or Ican do NOT throw your GD principles out the window when you debate us on the subject. Present your alternatives in a thoughtful, logical and most importantly respectful manner. Telling us we are one step short of being the Anti-christ is a sure way to completely close our minds to you.

As the old saying goes,"You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar."

You want to win converts to GD? Be honey, not vinegar.

[Calm]

That's what I thought, Penault. I believe we should all be given a chance to see the other side of a coin. I think it is quite obvious when someone is closed minded about this issue. I read a thread here somewhere where someone was trying to convince readers to spank. Now that is different. That is advocating, which is against the guidelines. Speaking about it in general is not advocating.

[Penalt]

Calm, you took the words right out of my mouth.

[Cynthia Mosher]

This thread is pretty darned old and the hippiemom2, who started the thread seems to have resolved her problem. Now the discussion has taken quite a few dips and turns as to what can and should be posted here at MDC in this regard.

A parent who spanks, feels that spanking is wrong and wishes to stop and needs help in coming up with workable alternatives is welcome to post here at MDC to seek out that help. I do think it is possible to look for alternatives without suggesting that spanking is an acceptable form of punishment. So perhaps we can avoid these issues by not suggesting that it is.

And before anyone takes issue with our User Agreement not having a specific statement about spanking I'll say that there are many things we may identify as inappropriate and unacceptable but are not specifically spelled out in a list. That's because we prefer to consider discussions individually. That may seem too arbitrary but we feel it works better this way.

[Calm]

"I do think it is possible to look for alternatives without suggesting that spanking is an acceptable form of punishment. So perhaps we can avoid these issues by not suggesting that it is."

True.

I may leave spanking threads alone, I think. I feel like I am trying to make others see sense in something I don't see any sense in.

Thanks Cynthia, I'm movin' on now.....trot trot trot....