Loosing a Friend over GD/UP (LONG)

[mommyofshmoo]

I was literally crying today because I think I'm going to have to end a friendship. I can't handle my "friend's" take on parenting/discipline.

Not like we were such great friends, but I feel like I have few mom friends in general, and only one or two casual friends that agree with my take on discipline.

Dd was having a tough day today and wasn't participating in dance class. She's turning three soon and I'm expecting another in a few months, so she is "going through stuff."

So the mom (who has two very close together- and a full time nanny) goes into her usual diatribe about how it's much better when all your attention isn't focused on an only child (ONLY? Dude, she's still 2.)

This mom always insinuates that dd is the way she is solely because I pay too much attention to her. Dd is kinda spirited, but not a bad kid by any stretch. She has strong emotions and is very sensitive. She was born that way. I don't go around saying that her kid drools all day, is pacifier addicted, and totally clumsy because of her lack of parenting! (Random mean thoughts on my part.)

Of course she pointed out that my dd doesn't act up when the babysitter brings her to dance class. I was like, "No sh*t, Sherlock, of course kids act differently when not with their moms!"

Anyway- later I mentioned to her that dd had warmed up to the class and seemed to do better with less intervention from me. My "friend" said, "Well, she's a very manipulative kid."

What the *%&$(#)(#@!!!!!!!!!!!

How DARE she call my kid manipulative! Emotional- fine, sensitive, fine, hyper even, fine. But MANIPULATIVE!!!!!

I simply do not beleive in ascribing such negative intentions to the actions of toddlers. I don't choose to beleive mean things like that about people I love.

And if dd is trying to get more attention- who cares? Dd's freaked that there will be a new baby in the house, and she should be, I am too. Why can't she try to sop up some mommy affection before our house is turned upside down?


Anyway- I'm more sad about loosing the hope of a friend than hurt by her comments. This same woman informed me that when her dd act up she "gets real mean and threatens her"- which she said "works great." I really, really, really wish I had looked her strait in the face and said "Wow! That's groundbreaking! You should write a parenting book!" I also know her dh spanks when their 2 yo is "being a real brat." So it's not like I look up to these people.

The thing is that I don't really want to see her again, but our kids are friends and go to the same dance class. I could move dd up to the older class- where she even knows one girl, but I'm not sure how to explain the shift. Also, we participate in the same playgroup- where I also feel that my beleifs are in the minority. I don't want to bail on playgroup- we've been going for over a year. I just feel like- if she says stuff like this to me face, who knows what she's saying behind my back.

Also- my sitter sometimes takes dd to play with their kid and I really hate the idea of her saying hateful stuff like this to my sitter- influencing her take my child. Yet I don't want to share with my sitter what my feelings are because I'd hate to have them repeated or to make my sitter feel wierd if they run into eachother at the park.


Ugh. So many people write about how they loose friends over this type of thing. It's really hard when you feel like you have to change your whole social scene because you just can't take the negativity anymore. I live in a big city, but we live in a small town area of it. I'm not sure how to shift my social group gracefully.



Darn You, Unconditional Parenting, by Alphie Kohn!!!!!!!!!!! You've pushed me over the edge in terms of being able to deal with people who are mean to kids!!!!!

[Venice Mamacita]

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear you had this experience. Mothers should be supporting one another, not attacking like barracuda!

I'm in the same boat as you in this regard, except I have NO new mom friends at all and am surrounded by family members who think I'm "spoiling" DS (who'll be 2 in 1.5 weeks and is our only child) because I don't spank him or punish him for having a tantrum or a "bad day." Hey, he's entitled to have his feelings just like they're entitled to have theirs!

I WOH P/T 4 days a week, and DS will take 2 hour naps -- voluntarily, I might add -- when his nanny is watching him, but when I'm home with him he wants to nurse down and only sleeps for 1 hour, if I'm lucky. Don't think I'm not constantly reminded of this, as if I'm somehow inadequate because he'd rather fall asleep at his mother's breast and in her arms.

The bottom line is, although this woman could use a refresher course on politeness and tact, remember that her comments say a lot more about her feelings for herself and her own children than they do about you and yours. It's a real pity her self-esteem is so low that she had to lash out at a toddler in a dance class . . . .

Again !

[mommyofshmoo]

Thanks Mamacita- I need all the hugs I can get!

The irritating thing is that she wasn't actively lashing out or criticizing, she acted like she was commiserating. The thing is- why would I take her side against my kid? Why would I want someone to commiserate over how "manipulative" and "spoiled" my kid is?

I just can't handle the casually cruel way people treat and talk about children. It's like people are offended that you would dare treat a child with the same respect afforded an adult.

I can't think of another group of people where it would be acceptable for people to say, "They are just manipulative, give and inch and they'll take a mile. If you are nice to them, they'll just take advantage of you. They just do it to push your buttons."

YUCK!

[mommyofshmoo]

BTW Mama-C-

You are really fighting the good fight. I feel alone all the time with my beleifs, but at least there are few people in my world who beleive in spanking.

But I feel like cruel words and mean insinuations can do just as much damage as spanking. I think a parent who occasionally spanks, but is warm, supportive and kind is probably better than a parent who tells their kid thay are royten but never lays a hand on them.

Not to say that I EVER condone hitting a child, just saying that words can hurt too.

[Wilhemina]

Originally Posted by Venice Mamacita

The bottom line is, although this woman could use a refresher course on politeness and tact, remember that her comments say a lot more about her feelings for herself and her own children than they do about you and yours.

This rings true to me.

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo

she [I]acted [/I] like she was commiserating.

so does this. (Emphasis mine.)

[Earthy~Mama]

You are a better person then I. If someone had called my child manipulative to my face, well, it wouldn't have been pretty.

I just want to share that I too lost a friend but not for the exact same reason but damn near close enough. It was more of a "budding" friendship still in the early stages. Well anyways... I knew from the beginning that we parent on different ends of the spectrum. Still I figured once in a while for a playdate or coffee can't be that bad. We went to the PX (military store) and while there her daughter hit my son. Both are under 3. So anyways the woman halls off and smacks her child saying " We don't hit!" Ummm hello? I thought what you just did was hit. My oldest just about crawls up my ! My son's eyes get so wide I thought they were gonna pop. So I decide to take them around the corner to sort of explain what just happened. Well the rest of the trip was cut rather short since " I forgot I had something to do later" A few days go by and she runs into us at the Post office. I am nice and civil while trying to avoid explaining why my son looks at her as if she is the She asks to come over later that week. Doubting she will call I say sure. Needless to say she calls. I am chatting with her over nothing of importance when my daughter interrupts the conversation. I proceed to tell this woman that DD had been having a rough day attitude wise. She then openly tells me about how she had to start smacking her daugher with a wooden spoon so that it would "hurt". She said her hand " just wasn't causing enough pain to fix the problem". I promptly said " I have to go. My daughter needs a hug" And hung up. Haven't spoken to her since.

I have come to realize that I have very strong convictions and tend to be judemmental when it comes to parenting issues. Oh well. If that prevents me and my kids from being around someone who beats her kid...well then that is fine with me.

Just wanted you to know that you aren't alone.

[Venice Mamacita]

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo

I just can't handle the casually cruel way people treat and talk about children. It's like people are offended that you would dare treat a child with the same respect afforded an adult.

Absolutely. My rule of thumb is, if it's not acceptable to do/say to another adult, then it sure as @#$* ain't acceptable to do/say to a child. So we don't hit our son, call him names, curse or yell at him, tell him to "get over it," etc., and try always to treat him with dignity and respect. Of course we screw up sometimes, just like everybody else, but this idea is always foremost in my mind.

She then openly tells me about how she had to start smacking her daugher with a wooden spoon so that it would "hurt". She said her hand " just wasn't causing enough pain to fix the problem".

This just makes me sick. Literally. I'm sitting here feeling nauseous . . . and hoping that child's parents have started a psychotherapy fund for her, she's gonna need it!

[musikat]

That goes way beyond parenting "styles." That's just bad "friendship." You NEVER say something that negative to any mom about their child!
The only time I would ever even bring up the negative behavior of someone else's child was if a) it DIRECTLY affected my child (and then in as nice a way as possible. As in, "Oh, is she going through a hitting phase right now? A lot of kids do." Or something to take the focus off the child and onto the behavior). Or B) if the mom herself had complained about the behavior or asked for advice. That's it. What she did was totally out of the ballpark for an aquaintance, let alone a friend. Forget being sad. That is a "friend" you don't need. Even if you had the same parenting philosophy, she would be a negative person to be around.

[mommyofshmoo]

Thanks E.M.

Geez, hearing other people's stories is making me feel like my problems are few indeed.

I do think it's weird to call someone's kid manipulative to their face, though. I need to just realize that she was being tactless and having her own issues.

I think part of the problem is that her dd looks up to my dd and imitates her a lot (she's a bit younger.) OTOH, my dd often gets irritated at hers. My dd likes hers a lot, but gets overwhelmed by her, especially because my dd is not very physical, is kinda introverted and hers is very physically effusive and kinda clumsy- plus much bigger than my dd.

Basically when my dd is grumpy she wants to be left alone, not smothered by a bear hug from a clumsy "baby" who has five pounds on her. Maybe this brings up issues I'm not aware of.

At the very least she probably doesn't want her dd imitating some of my dd's behaviors, which I totally understand. But I'm not going to parent differently for her convenience.

Anyway- sorry for going on and on. I'm just trying to figure out what happened. Part of the issues in my groups of moms is that my dd is the oldest and by FAR the oldest acting. When I let my dd make a lot of choices and don't control her in as much as some others would I'm setting an "example" for other kids, as well as some parents.

[PrincessMommie]

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo

Anyway- later I mentioned to her that dd had warmed up to the class and seemed to do better with less intervention from me. My "friend" said, "Well, she's a very manipulative kid."

: :

Me personally speaking...that 'friend' ship would be done, nada, zilch, zip, bang --- Gone!

[mamatoady]

I know how you feel. My dd recently witnessed my neighbor spanking his 16 month old daughter for going near the stairs and she was (in my eyes) completely traumatized. Fortunately I had already had a conversation with the 16month old's mom about how I will not put up with people spanking their kids in front of my daughter. So of course she was MORTIFIED that her husband did this and although I left reasonably quickly without saying anything, within about 1/2 hour, the dad was at our house appologizing for not thinking that it might offend me or my dd. I have another friend who constantly yells at her 1 year old son for anything that he does. The other day they were at my house and we were outside. He wanted to play with the rocks in the garden and she started screaming at him "NO ROCKS! I SAID NO ROCKS!" then she told us he puts them in his mouth. The kid hadn't taken his sucky out in hours and never went anywhere near his mouth with them. She'd regardless, take them and throw them quickly like they were poison. With this second friend, I really liked her before she had a baby, but unfortunately I choose to rarely see them b/c I don't want her parenting negatively affecting my daughter. She is sensitive and shy to begin with and that aggression will not stand.

So, I sympathize. I think the question is, is your friends negativity poorly affecting you or your children. If she is, then maybe it's time to get some distance. Your children are more important.

Sarah

[mommyofshmoo]

I don't think their parenting is affecting my kid, just me. I just don't want my kid to hear this woman saying stuff like that about her. Hasn't happened yet, though.

I need to start moving away from my play group as my main source of mommy contact. It's hard when that's the main support system you have.

I need to make one on one play times with the moms I like and not hang out with the moms who piss me off.

I don't know why I worry that they talk about me behind my back- totally weird and silly, but I know they all kinda turned on this other mom in the group. Different situation, but it made me wary. Groups of women can be unpredictable.

Is it paranoid if they really are out to get you?

[Rainbowbird]

I agree with the PPs---this was not a real friend or someone you would want for a friend.

I wouldn't worry about her talking about you. Just let things fade. You don't have to have it out with her if you don't want to. Just be busy...very busy...until she just slips away.

As for the kids losing the friendship, well, it won't be the last time this happens. When they are school age it will inevitably happen and it will be harder then. I know how you feel because there are people I have allowed myself to drift away from b/c of the way they parent. But I was so uncomfortable that it wasn't worth trying to hang in there.

You will find new friends eventually. It may take time, and I know it's very hard to be a mom and not have a good support group. I have a couple of good friends but none of them are as AP as me. One of them spanks. I don't see her as much anymore and it is sad, b/c before I realized how she was handling the toddler years, I really liked her and we were very close. She is a very loving parent in all other respects but I just can reconcile the fact that she now spanks.

Could you try advertising to start up an AP playgroup? Something I have considered myself. I hate the fact that some days I chat more with strangers here on MDC (much as I love it) than with real people in my town.

Good luck!

[EJP]

i only have a minute to write - it seems that you might not be able to avoid this woman from the sounds of it - i know it's hard (at least i find confrontation difficult) but you might try be completely frank with her and just saying "listen, we obviously have different parenting styles, i don't believet that children are manipulative, yada yada yada" then let her know that you'd appreciate it if she kept HER BIG MOUTH SHUT (ha ha ha) - Seriously, if you can't escape her for the time being, then be a straight shooter with her - people have such weird thoughts on children and parenting - it seems to me that you've got a great approach - maybe she'll reevalutate her own way of thinking....

[velochic]

I don't want to be the sole dissenter here, but something you posted really stuck out. You said that this mother mentioned that your dd is manipulative and you became very defensive of this. I think that all kids are somewhat manipulative - but as GDers, we put it in more GENTLE terms... usually "testing boundaries". It sounds like the term "manipulative" really set you off, but perhaps your friend didn't have a better way of putting it because she doesn't have many wonderful GDing friends like you. Could you, instead of being defensive with your "friend", perhaps talk to her about terminology, find out what she really means, and maybe come to an agreement about what to say/not to say to each other in regards to your children?

Since you are going to be around her often and the kids are as well, hopefully you can find a common and agreeable ground to stand on and not have to write off the friendship completely. Just a thought. Good luck!!

[mommyofshmoo]

Originally Posted by velochic

I don't want to be the sole dissenter here, but something you posted really stuck out. You said that this mother mentioned that your dd is manipulative and you became very defensive of this. I think that all kids are somewhat manipulative - but as GDers, we put it in more GENTLE terms... usually "testing boundaries". It sounds like the term "manipulative" really set you off, but perhaps your friend didn't have a better way of putting it because she doesn't have many wonderful GDing friends like you. Could you, instead of being defensive with your "friend", perhaps talk to her about terminology, find out what she really means, and maybe come to an agreement about what to say/not to say to each other in regards to your children?

Since you are going to be around her often and the kids are as well, hopefully you can find a common and agreeable ground to stand on and not have to write off the friendship completely. Just a thought. Good luck!!

I totally agree that the word sent me over the edge. But I am also getting sick of the condescension. Every time I say anything about my dd, she says, "Well, when you have two you won't even have time to pay attention to stuff like that."

It's annoying when people dismiss your comments/concerns.

I think I'm a bit sensitive right now and don't think I can handle talking about it with her. Her take is to do whatever it takes to get her kids to behave. I'm kinda tired of hearing how happy she is that her and dd just lock their dd (my kid's age) in her room at bedtime and let her scream till she falls asleep. I'm sick of her telling me about her "discpline" techniques and then trying to tease me till I give her my blessing, or agree or whatever.

The thing is that she's said she's impressed at my negotiation and mediation with the kids. Dont know what that's about.

Whatever, I am so over this. For whatever reason, she wants me to back her up on her parenting descisions and I really don't want to. I'm sick of being manipulated by her in this respect.

[malibusunny]

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo

The irritating thing is that she wasn't actively lashing out or criticizing, she acted like she was commiserating. The thing is- why would I take her side against my kid?

YUCK!

exactly! oh, exactly. i have not been able to put my finger on this in the past, but here it is!

[mommyofshmoo]

I just got back from visiting family and I started to get very annoyed at the number of conversations between my mom and dad (divorced) and my mom and boyfriend that involved them complaining about their (grown) kids. Though only my mom's b-friend has one "this kid" to "do that." It was totally suffocating.

I feel like- is this why we have kids? So we can judge them harshly and manipulate them to do what we want?

I suppose my friend got me fired up.

[alaska]

I wonder if she is feeling a bit insecure about her own parenting techniques and that's why she wants you to "justify" them? You said she seems to want you to back her up, and that she seems impressed with how you negotiate and interact with your dd.

I would not advocate modifying your social calendar to avoid her - unless that's something you want to do - that isn't fair to you. If it were me, I think I would have to just be up front with her. I think I would have to tell her that while I appreciate that she is trying to help - that you do believe she has yours, and your DD's, best interest at heart (I try to ascribe good intentions when possible...), that your parenting philosophy is a lot different than hers, especially with respect to discipline. That you've thoroughly researched this subject and feel comfortable with how you want to proceed with your dd, and that some of her (your friend's) suggestions, though well-meaning, are not something you'd consider. I would tell her that I think this is just one area that we are going to have to agree to disagree about.

Do you think that would help?

[cmb123]

It's that dang book!!! :LOL

Seriously though, I think too, that you are right on this cusp of your kid turning from baby/toddler to "bigger kid/person" (not that babies aren't people but YKWIM). This time is for me when the real separation of friends started. When you're hanging out/playgrouping with people with babies, you don't start getting really into discipline etc.. cause their just babies. Then all of the sudden they get older, and you start to realize just how differently some people do things, some of them to the point where you just can't stomach being around them. Especially if they are rude enough (or in your case I think insecure) enough to say things about your kids to you.
People like these in my life I just had to sort of let fade away. I didn't totally avoid all of them. Just limited conversations with them to things that have nothing to do with kids, and definately never confided in them about any kid issues I was having- that way I never had to hear any of thier "advise" about it.