Love and Logic: can't decide what to make of it

[HappyLamb]

I just read a book called "Love and Logic Magic for early childhood." I can't decide what to think of it.
The basic idea is about teaching children responsibility and consequences. The authors are anti-spanking, but I don't know if that qualifies them as "Gentle Discipline."

An example, Mom tells her son that its time to clean up the toys. She says very simply, "Feel free to keep the toys you pick up!" If the son isn't starting to pick up his toys, she picks them up and the son then has to "earn" them back (ie-by doing extra chores or something). Mom shouldn't have to keep nagging and warning her kids to do something.
Other non-nagging examples:
Instead of "Put your coat on," you say, "I'd be happy to take you when your coat is on."
Instead of, "Hurry up! Get ready! We're leaving," you say, "The car is leaving in 10 minutes."
Then if your kid doesn;t get ready on time, you stick to what you said- you leave, even if he's in pjs- you just bring his clothes with you in the car.

Another example: they are very into giving your children choices, "as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else on the planet." For instance, two boys are having a sleepover. The dad says, "Would you like to watch movie A or movie B." Then, "Would you like to have popcorn or fruit?" so on and so forth. Then when its bedtime, Dad says, "Time for bed." The boys protest. Dad says, "Oh! I forgot to give you a choice.Do you want to go to bed now or in 15 minutes?" The boys say, "in 15 minutes." So then 15 minutes later, Dad tells them "Time for bed." The boys protest. Dad gently reminds them, "Boys, I gave you a choice about everything else this evening. Now the last choice is mine. See you in the AM."

I think the concept is a good idea, but you have to be strong to execute a lot of the practicalities. Also, the parents haveto be able to live with the consequences- like, do you really want to drop your kids off at school in pajamas?
Anyway, has anyone else read this? Again, I'm not really sure what to make of it all.

[lilyka]

I thought it had a lot of good stuff to chew on. I liked having your children deal with thier own consequenses andn ot getting emotionally bent out of shape over things that elly have nothing to do with you. I also think it gives a lot of options for keeping you frmo loosing your mind and freaking out on your children. For example the toys.

I realize it sounds too contrived for some people but I found it very helpful and helped me really let go of some stuff and not take her consequnces as a personal bad thing to me. that was a bad sentence but can't think of a better way to say it.

I don't think it works alone and don't agree with everything he says but I do think it is beter than having no plan. While I don't sheild my children from natrual consequences I do expect more from them. I don't want to raise kids who can't ever learn from other peoples mistakes. I also want them to be people who can work under someone else athourity.

[HappyLamb]

Originally Posted by lilyka

I don't think it works alone and don't agree with everything he says but I do think it is beter than having no plan.

Mmm. interesting. Can you think of something that might complement it? One thing that I love about it is that it teaches you NOT to have power struggles with your kids- because, most likely no one wins. I like the concept of not nagging. But as a parent, you have to be ready to deal with the consequences. For instance, lets say, its a beautiful sunny day and you want to take DS to the park. YOu know that its a great way to entertain him for an hour, and you just don't want to be cooped up with him. You say to DS, " When you out your shoes on, we'll go to the park." DS is dawdling and doesn't seem to want to go. So according to Love and Logic, you can't then say, "Put on your shoes!" or even, "do you need help putting on your shoes?" As a parent you have to be prepared that DS might not out on his shoes and you won't take him. That's obvioulsy not the worst thing in the world- if oyu don't go to the parkone afternoon- but you get the idea.

[Raynbow]

I like Love and Logic, but I do think that you need to "tweak" it to fit with your beliefs regarding Gentle Discipline.
I find some of the tactics a little too harsh for my taste, but I really like the overall concept of logical consequences - I know they've helped my older son with getting things done.

[kathipaul]

I like love and logic. I used to teach in a school district that adopted it district wide as the discipline/classroom management style of choice. The PTA also offered courses for parents to take. Basically, it was a wealthy area and a lot of parents were spoiling their children and not teaching them responsibility. Using love and logic in the classroom, communicating to parents in conferences, and teaching it to parents made a huge difference. It takes a while to get into the habits but it really does make your life less stressful to use choices, empathy, respectful talk, etc with kids.

However, it is also my opinion that you have to do what makes you comfortable and it is perfectly ok to do some of one book and some of another and some of what you make up and some of what you were taught. KWIM?

[mlis]

I really liked parts of it, but had HUGE problems with other parts. I'm all for, well, you don't want to put your shoes on, well it will be cold walking to the car, however I really didn't like the 'uh-oh, so sad' off to your room aspect of it. I felt there was a lot of contrived empathy and a lot of 'sweet girls don't do XYZ' which makes my skin crawl. I can see it being used for a really out of control kid who needs some boundaries asap, however I can't imagine saying 'uh-oh, so sad' and putting my 2.5 year old in his room because he throws something. It also talks a lot about showing your children you can handle them without breaking a sweat. I disagree with this also. IMO, this teaches ds that he has no power and I have absolute power.

I feel there is a lot of good stuff in this book, but a lot not good stuff also. I just took what I liked and left the rest, however, its probably not a book I would recommend.

[lilyka]

Does it suggest sending them to thier room? I thought it did but then I couldn't remember. I do have issues with sending kids to thier room. I believe they learn nothing in there but pity and spend thier time plotting revenge. In our house children who have trouble fining self control and cooperative spirits get to stick like glue to mom where they can learn all about these things

I also took liberties with reminding my children that I was here to help them find solutions if they needed me.

[annettemarie]

There were parts I liked and parts I didn't. I loved some of the suggestions for language and actually went to the web site, printed them out, and hung them on the fridge for a reminder.

[Flor]

Originally Posted by lilyka

Does it suggest sending them to thier room? I thought it did but then I couldn't remember. I do have issues with sending kids to thier room. I believe they learn nothing in there but pity and spend thier time plotting revenge. .

That was me as a kid!!!

Anyway, I use Love and Logic in my classroom and sometimes at home when necessary. It does feel a little dishonest to me-- I am pretending to give you a choice but really it is time for bed at 9 -- it's just that I pretended it was your bedtime 15 minutes ago. Kids seem happy with the choices. I am not always quick enough to think of choices, though, and consequences, like, as soon as pick up your room, we'll umm, umm, I don't know! Or, class, as soon as you stop talking we'll. . . uh.

[Destinye]

I just got it out of the library and was wondering what people thought. It makes sense in some areas but it worried me about putting your 8 mo old baby in a "time out" in a playpen or crib (or you would have an out of control 16 mo old - oops I guess I got one then lol) but some of it makes sense so far, but that concerned me and would not do it.

However DH really wants to start giving DD short time outs (she is very strong willed and persistent and repetition is not working lol) actually I think she is really doing great right now for her age without that, but what DO you do instead of time outs? I would prefer not to, but some of the behavior is to do with going to dangerous things then looking at us to see what we are going to do. We are as childproofed as we can be but also trying to teach her some things ARE off limits.

[mamasadie]

I really dislike L&L. There is some good, but it's mostly bad, and the good is not good enough to overcome the bad. A prime example they give that really made me sad:

It's the child's job to feed the cat. The child does not feed the cat. Mother says to child, "Now it's dinnertime. Your job is to feed one mouth. Mommy's job is to feed three mouths. Since you chose to not feed the cat, tonight mommy will feed herself, daddy and the cat."



Basically, I choose not to bother to slug through stuff like that to find the one little bit of good there might be here and there.

IMO, L&L is punitive and manipulative. It's really no different from mainstream parenting, besides semantics. It's main benefit is to convince parents that they are not doing the horrible things they really are, b/c they are using different terminology to do it.

[~Megan~]

From what I know about it I like it. While I've not been formally educated in their methods we do things that you described.
We do try to be sensitive to her feelings and needs though. We all have days that are harder than others

[sarasprings]

Originally Posted by mamasadie

IMO, L&L is punitive and manipulative. It's really no different from mainstream parenting, besides semantics. It's main benefit is to convince parents that they are not doing the horrible things they really are, b/c they are using different terminology to do it.

That's what I think, too. When I first read it, it made sense, but then as I thought about it over the next week, it really started to bother me. It's very pavlovian having that catch phrase. I agree that natural consequences are necessary and consistency is extremely important. But, the "program" is not meant to teach, but condition.

[PoppyMama]

I went through the training class (free for a volunteer group I worked with) and I liked part and didn't like other parts. It has helped me a lot in finding my humor when things are not going well and the idea of letting the consequences teach the child rather than punishments works for me. There are things that they suggest that I do find manipulative and seem to take a little too much pleasure in your dc downfall.

On the bedtime thing- they only say to set a bedTIME they do not make the child actually go to bed. We do this- my dc have a time at night when they go to their room but I don't check to make sure they are in bed. They usually read, play, listen to the radio, etc. for a while.

I have taken my dc to the car in their pajamas when they were younger and I have taken them to school without socks and holding their shoes. I enjoy not fighting and there are some things that have to be done. I let my dc make their own choices but I have things that I have to do and since they are young they have to come with me so... I only use this technique for a couple of things now.