When others view your child's feelings as a problem

[Magella]

So I was feeling mighty proud of both myself and my oldest dd (C) yesterday.

But first a little history: We went to the inlaws after preschool, which has been a problem in the past. C has had tantrums that include hitting and throwing when we're visiting with the inlaws-their house or ours-which are worse than anything she's done at home when it's just us. She has also always been very intense, has taken a long time to learn to talk about her feelings, and is very sensitive (she's the kid crying when she spills something as if we beat her for doing it, even though all we ever have done is said is "oh boy. Let's clean it up. That's what we do when we spill"). She has also seemed to not let anyone comfort her when she's upset.

So yesterday was a great day. Great day for her at school, great visit all afternoon at the inlaws, great dinner-good manners, ate well, fun conversation. Just fabulous! Then we get to dessert. My very helpful C counts how many people will have dessert, ds gets plates, C gets utensils. She (C) serves cake-she starts with the baby, but baby is having ice cream so we say no cake (too much food) which upsets C but she moves on with a little explanation. She continues serving cake while FIL serves ice cream. She gets her own cake on her plate and gets ready to eat but all that's left for utensils is a fork. She starts crying, and explaining that she got 3 spoons for the kids and 2 forks for the adults (perfect reasoning, as that's usually the pattern of utensil usage in our family). While she's talking and crying, all the adults (mostly MIL and FIL) are interrupting her-explaining why it happened, because Daddy had ice cream instead of cake, we don't eat ice cream with forks, etc. But C is very clearly truly upset-this is no tantrum-and she needs to talk. So she comes over to me and talks through tears (loudly, but not yelling) about how everything is going wrong and she was just trying to help, but now there's an extra fork that will be dirty. So I'm just hugging her and reflecting back (it's a hard afternoon, you tried so hard to set the table but it didn't turn out the way you planned, etc.). She finally brings her dessert to sit next to me, and I make a little joke for her that helps her smile and move on. It's all good, until a button falls off her coat and she bangs her knee and cries again, but again it's sad crying-not a tantrum-and she says what she's feeling and moves on.

So here I am feeling very good, because C is finally talking about her feelings, and I actually understood that she was upset about the spoons because she had tried so hard to get the correct number and type of utensils and thought she had done something wrong when there weren't enough spoons and one extra fork. She had no tantrum. I was able to support her, and to help her understand that she did nothing wrong. It didn't turn into a power struggle, I didn't let her down, I didn't ignore her feelings. She felt understood and moved on to play. I was so patting myself on the back for doing something right.

But MIL says "What's going on with her? Have you found out anything about this?" I'm guessing that to MIL this was no different from a tantrum. MIL said other things too, which I won't get into (and I educated her a bit, but she didn't understand or agree with me). :

Since when is feeling sad or angry or anything other than happy a behavior problem? Maybe I shouldn't ask, because I know I've been guilty of the same at times. But it's so annoying that C did nothing wrong or inappropriate, she just felt sad, and the inlaws think it's a problem. Not that they did anything bad, their attitude just bugs me. I don't have much of a point or a question I guess. Just a vent.

[PuppyFluffer]

So, tell me how your dh deals with his sad or upset feelings? If he stuffs them inside you may know why. If he was raised by parents who never fostered a healthy way to deal with these feelings, stuffing them inside is a common way to cope.

Maybe you can come back to the topic another day and ask her how she thought you should have reacted? And how that would have helped dd to learn how to handle disappointments. If you engage her in telling you about her opinions and thoughts you might get a good conversation where a light bulb comes on for her as you gently explain how you see it and why you do the things you do. (If she is interested.)

[Magella]

Oddly, dh is not a stuffer. He doesn't cry much, but he doesn't stuff his feelings either. He has no problem coming right out and saying how he feels. Though I have to say he doesn't admit to feeling sad much, but he's also a very optimistic person and a very happy person. He's also a very compassionate dad. He has had much less of a struggle with being gentle as a parent than I. Go figure. With parents like that, you'd think he'd be different than he is. MIL is a professional feeling-stuffer and passive-aggressive person.

Yeah, I think I'll talk to her about it more at a better time. I love her, and she's very easy to talk to and I know that at a calmer time she'll listen more. Also, I'll just tell her "my therapist (or the pediatrician) says...". (They have.) Quoting a person with credentials works with her. It's just frustrating having to educate my parents and inlaws about being a parent. YK?

[mommyofshmoo]

Wow! i just posted something similar in the UP thread.

I'm always feeling like people (in-laws and s/t dh) want me to "make" dd feel differently than she does. I hate forcing her to kiss dh or grandma or act happy when she isn't.

Dd is kinda introverted and my MIL acts like that is a character flaw. I once mentioned to MIL that dd is introverted and needs to recharge after times with lots of other people. She rushed to assure me that that might change and I shoulnd't encourage it.

It's so irritating that kids are supposed to be happt, outgoing, accommodating all the time. My dh has been a grumpy mess for aweek and I put up with him! why can't I give my dd the same respect?

[Magella]

It is so annoying! I don't make my kids kiss or talk to anyone. I encourage responding to questions, but if they don't want to talk it's okay with me. It bugs me when it's clear (to me anyway) that a child is uncomfortable talking or doesn't want to be kissed or touched, and people try to force it anyway. In those situations I just say "Dc doesn't feel like (talking, kissing, playing) right now. Maybe later. So how 'bout those red sox? (change subject)"

I do get tired of having to defend my children for things like having feelings and expressing them, and generally for being kids. I get tired of explaining myself and trying to educate the people close to us. It's exhausting.

[maya44]

My guess is that your IL's view those times they are with your dd as times that she should be on "better behavior."

I mean my IL's know that my kids might act like this when they are just around me, and don't think there is anything wrong with it, but they expect ( and frankly so do I) a bit more of putting this under control when "other people are around".


I ABSOLUTELY expect my kids to kiss and be friendly to their grandparents whether they want to or not. To me its just a part of "being polite in society"
Around me and dh alone they are more than welcome to be grumpy, no kissing whatever.

But unless we are with granparents 24/7 for an extended period, the standard of behavior is higher.

I know not everyone does this. I could be wrong, but its my guess its what your IL's expect and feel that dd should be able to control herself around them, not that she shouldn't feel a certain way.

Moreover, from your post, viewing it as your IL's would have it seems that your dd is "set off" fairly easily. If this was an unusual, she was out of sorts thing, I wouldn't worry. But if every single day is like this multiple, multiple times. I would.

At 4, kids need to start building a little more resilency. If you feel the need to cry every hour or so, that is a sign that emotional resilency is not where it needs to be. I am not talking about supressing her feelings. I am just talking about getting to a place where you can deal with lifes set backs without breaking down.

[Momtwice]

I think it is absolutely very wrong to force anyone to kiss anyone else, and a slippery slope, teaching them that they have no right to determine what happens to their body...very slippery slope.

Polite, sure, maybe even friendly, but I would never force a child to kiss anyone.

[maya44]

The only people my kids are "expected" to kiss are their grandparents. Anyone else its thier choice.

[cmb123]

Originally Posted by sledg

So I was feeling mighty proud of both myself and my oldest dd (C) yesterday.
.

Yeah! Great for you! I remember the first thread about that situation.
Look how far you've come togther!!!!

[Magella]

Originally Posted by maya44

My guess is that your IL's view those times they are with your dd as times that she should be on "better behavior."

I mean my IL's know that my kids might act like this when they are just around me, and don't think there is anything wrong with it, but they expect ( and frankly so do I) a bit more of putting this under control when "other people are around".

I know not everyone does this. I could be wrong, but its my guess its what your IL's expect and feel that dd should be able to control herself around them, not that she shouldn't feel a certain way.

At 4, kids need to start building a little more resilency. If you feel the need to cry every hour or so, that is a sign that emotional resilency is not where it needs to be. I am not talking about supressing her feelings. I am just talking about getting to a place where you can deal with lifes set backs without breaking down.

I'm asking this because I am genuinely curious: if your 5 year old, at the end of a long, busy day, had experienced a frustrating situation and was crying (not having a tantrum-screaming, throwing, yelling-just crying) and talking about what a hard time she was having while she was crying (and all right, maybe it was a little loud but not yelling) would you consider it inappropriate? Would you expect your tired and disappointed 5 year old to do something other than cry? And if so, what?

I'm asking because teaching my kids to express their feelings appropriately is something I'm trying to figure out. It seems to me that it's odd that public crying is socially unacceptable/inappropriate. And at what age is it reasonable to expect a child not to cry when experiencing a disappointment or frustration? I mean, 5 is so young. 5 year olds just don't think the same way adults do, yet we expect them to regulate their emotional responses in an adult-like manner? And overall, I'd agree that if a 5 year old is breaking down in tears hourly every day, then that child would seem to need some help developing their resiliency-but what about one bad day? Or one bad afternoon? Or a pattern of stress when visiting certain people-is it the child's responsibility to "suck it up" and find a way to deal with it, or the adults' job to make the situation more comfortable for the child, or both?

Why shouldn't a child cry and verbalize their emotions? (again-not talking about a screaming tantrum, just crying.) Instead should they choke back the tears but stick to talking about their feelings? And how in the world do you teach someone not to cry? And isn't part of the issue really the adults' discomfort with displays of emotion?

I'm truly not being snarky here. I really would like to know what people think is an appropriate expression of sadness, anger, fear, frustration, or disappointment for a child.

[lynsage]

i was raised by a total "children should be seen and not heard" parent who forced me to stuff my feelings all the time. she even made me stop crying at my grandpa's funeral when i was nineteen.

the last time she was here for a visit before i stopped having contact with her, she tried to stop my boyfriend from comforting me when i was crying in the bedroom at one week postpartum after she called me a "f---ing b----" for saying i didn't want to take any phone calls while i was attempting to nurse my daughter (we had serious problems with breastfeeding and she didn't really didn't latch on until she was two weeks old). i was sitting there sobbing and she stopped him on his way to the bedroom and said to him very nastily and sarcastically "go ahead, baby her. THAT'll make it better". i am not a "stuffer" as an adult, but i'm sure if i still had a relationship with her, she would try to impose the same bull on my daughter.

your mil doesn't sound as bad as my mom, but people who try to make other people stuff their emotions are toxic, period, and you don't owe her an explanation of why it's ok for your child to have feelings. the "have you found out anything about this" question certainly makes it sound like she thinks something is wrong with your daughter. i would tell her once that your therapist/doctor/whoever says it's okay and make it clear that it is no longer open for discussion.

[maya44]

As I said in my previous post:

Originally Posted by maya44

If this was an unusual, she was out of sorts thing, I wouldn't worry. But if every single day is like this multiple, multiple times. I would.

I don't think any child can be expected to avoid crying occassionally, nor should they.

But you said at the begining of your post, that Il's often see dd crying and tantruming.

I am just trying to have things viewed from their pesepctive.

If EVERY,SINGLE time they see her there are MULTIPLE incidents like the one you described, I would, if I were them, be concerned.


It's not a matter of "keeping a stiff upper lip" but rather of true resiliency. Of helping a child get to a place where a lost button or a mistake in cutlery placement is no big deal to them.

If this were my grandchild, i would wonder what might be done to help her.

From what you actually quoted, this is what they did. I guess I am just trying to say that I didn't think their reaction was so bad.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by sledg

Since when is feeling sad or angry or anything other than happy a behavior problem? Maybe I shouldn't ask, because I know I've been guilty of the same at times. But it's so annoying that C did nothing wrong or inappropriate, she just felt sad, and the inlaws think it's a problem. Not that they did anything bad, their attitude just bugs me. I don't have much of a point or a question I guess. Just a vent.

I have seen people take this attitude often, especially where children are concerned. I do not really understand why there is this expectation that kids should be happy all the time, and that if they express sadness/frustration they must have some "problem". To an extent my MIL is this way (though that isn't my biggest issue with her). Kids are human beings, and as such they have the emotions we all do. Sometimes the emotions are very powerful, and kids are just learning how to deal with that. Heck, there are days I don't handle mine all that well either

I'm afraid my response to your MIL's question about "Have you found out anything about this" regarding your daughter would have been something like "Yes, we've found out that she needs supportive loving parents, and family." If I could have managed something that non-snarky anyway. FWIW, I think you did a fantastic job.

[Magella]

Ah! I see what you were saying, Maya.

To clarify, we see the ILs once a week for a couple of hours (occasionally also a longer visit on weekends), after dd is done with preschool for the day. For some reason, most likely because she's tired after school, dd has had a tendency to have tantrums during our visits with them. She could be fine all week, but have a tantrum there. Yes, she's had trouble with regulating her emotions and behavior at times at home, but at this point she has improved dramatically and most of the time her tantrums occur when we're visiting the ILs or when we have company.

I guess what peeved me about MIL's reaction that day was that on that particular day, my dd had shown a huge improvement over other visits, and MIL couldn't see that. I mean, in the past my dd had been having tantrums during our visits that included throwing and hitting-definitely not okay. But on this day, she was just crying, just genuinely disappointed and handled herself well-no hitting, no yelling, no throwing. A big improvement in her ability to cope appropriately.

The fact that the difference between the tantrums of the past and the crying of that day was lost on my MIL was really discouraging and really frustrating. In MIL's mind there was no difference. When I said "dd has really come a long way" she said "oh really?" with a roll of the eyes and a sarcastic tone. That's what made me think that MIL is intolerant of any less-than-positive emotions in a child (unless they're crying because they're hurt). Seems to me like the difference between yelling and hurling a toy across the room and crying while explaining your feelings with words is pretty obvious.

Then again, I guess we've been working so hard on this together, dd and dh and I, that of course we notice the difference. My MIL is a great (if occasionally annoying, and I mean that lovingly) MIL and grandmother-I was just disappointed and frustrated. Even when the visits are going well, they aren't it seems. Can't win.

[UnschoolnMa]

maya44 wrote: My guess is that your IL's view those times they are with your dd as times that she should be on "better behavior."

That is my guess too, and I think it's awful.

I ABSOLUTELY expect my kids to kiss and be friendly to their grandparents whether they want to or not. To me its just a part of "being polite in society"

I'm sorry I don't mean to be rude, but I think that's just horrible. You would force your children to kiss people when they don't want to?

[Magella]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

I'm afraid my response to your MIL's question about "Have you found out anything about this" regarding your daughter would have been something like "Yes, we've found out that she needs supportive loving parents, and family." If I could have managed something that non-snarky anyway. FWIW, I think you did a fantastic job.

Thanks! Been patting myself on the back for days, actually. It's such a huge breakthrough for all of us.

Here's what I said to MIL:
"yes, it's totally normal. She's very sensitive and has some really big feelings. She just needs to be able to talk about her feelings, and she needs us to show her that we understand what she's feeling. She's really come a long way."

(Insert MIL's snarky "Oh really?" comment here)

"Well, she's not hitting or yelling, and she's actually using her words to tell us how she feels. And now she's outside playing and laughing only a few minutes later. I think she's doing very well."

I think I did a good job handling my own emotions and using my words. (Pats self on the back again )

Oh, and thanks to everyone who has replied! I appreciate all support and all questions and comments that make me think and scrutinize my own behavior and reactions. Hard as that scrutiny can be

[lilyka]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I repeat.

First i am glad to hear visits with the in laws are going better for dd. that is excelent!!

2nd : do you think perhaps your MIl meant her comment in concern. I mean nooffense but your dd seems very sad and it is concerning to me that she would weep sadly over ever small little thing. And maybe it ust seems exaggurated in your post since you were focusing on that. my first thoguht was "that sounds like a very tired child" but if this is normal behavior for her I would be so concerned about the trouble she has coping with such small things. Does that make sense. perhaps grandma is worrie dabout her being so sad all the time.

[Magella]

lilyka, yes dd was very tired at the time. It was just about time to go home. And, naturally, she has more difficulty coping when she's exhausted. Of course MIL meant to be expressing her love and concern for her granddaughter. Dd is a very sensitive, very emotional person so we all do see her cry alot, just as we see her laugh a lot and bubble over with exuberance daily. She wears her heart on her sleeve. It can be wonderfully infectious, and it can be hard to see. No one likes to see someone they love hurting in any way.

I'm seeing now, after all this posting, that the problem is mine: I was so excited to see such improvement, and then so very disappointed when that improvement wasn't a big, exciting deal for the ILs. I had felt so competent (finally) because I had helped my dd learn to cope in a more appropriate way, after trying so hard, and it was really shocking when MIL was still worried. I'm seeing that of course she'd be worried after the behavior she'd seen, I was worried for a while too. Difference is that MIL hasn't been in our home every day while we work on it to see the difference, she hasn't talked to the child therapist I know or to my therapist or to my ped., she hasn't read the child development books. All she sees her her grandbaby crying. At every visit. Of course she's worried.

Thank you all for helping me see this from my MIL's point of view. : Sometimes I need some help seeing things from someone else's perspective.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

I'm sorry I don't mean to be rude, but I think that's just horrible. You would force your children to kiss people when they don't want to? [/COLOR]

Not "people", their grandparents, and ONLY their granparents. They are old, they expect this and would be hurt if it did not happen.

We have talked about this. My dd's understand that Grandma and Grandpa are the excpetion and that touching or kissing all others is their choice.

And notice I said "I expect" them to do this. NOT "force". There is an expectation there. If they really don't want to we can discuss it. If the reason is "her perfume is yucky" I would tell them I still expect them to do it.

If it was "its giving me the creeps" I would tell them not to do it and explore the matteer further!

[Soundhunter]

While I agree that older children should/can learn to behave well when around their grandparents and while visiting other people's homes, it also sounds to me like that was too long of a day for your sensitive girl. I think visiting them for an hour and having a snack or something sounds good, but staying for dinner and dessert as well, sounds like too much if she's already had a busy day and she's expected to behave better when visiting. I think leaving there on a high note would've been the better thing to do, since you know she is prone to getting overwhelmed with this after pre-school grandparent visits. Again, I agree that children can learn to behave better than usual when visiting other people's homes, but we can also help set them up for better behavior as well by ensuring that they aren't tired or overwhelmed, or that if they are needing to be back at home to wind down that the visit is kept short and sweet.