TIME article: Ratzinger's views on women

[girlndocs]

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101...osullivan.html

A woman has "roles inscribed in her own biology," he says. And what would those be? Motherhood and virginity, "the two loftiest values in which she realizes her profoundest vocation." [...] What if they live in a free-market society that rewards their skills? Then that society undermines the true meaning of being human. What if biology gives us, say, a child with indeterminate gender or a transgendered person or a homosexual? Then nature is somehow awry.

It's not a complimentary article, so if you can't take seeing the Pope criticized, don't bother clicking. OK?

[EMT-Mom]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the church is so opposed to "Gay's" why are so many priest gay. When i was in HS one of the Nuns gave up her Sister hood to be with her lesiban lover. Hipocrits!!!!!!!!!

[DaryLLL]

Good article, Girl, thanks.

The dogmatism is astonishing. If your conscience demands that you dissent from some teachings, then it is not really your conscience. It is sin. And if all this circular dogmatism forces many to leave the church they once thought of as home? So be it. Benedict once wrote of the 18th century church, roiled by the Enlightenment, that it "was a church reduced in size and diminished in social prestige, yet become fruitful from a new interior power, a power that released new formative forces for the individual and for society." That is his vision. If the church withers to a mere shadow of its former self, then that is not failure. It is success. And even in a short papacy, Benedict might just manage it.

The church's death (or withering or apostasy) is it's victory? Just like Christ's death and other martyr's deaths were their victory? I see.

[stafl]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

The church's death (or withering or apostasy) is it's victory? Just like Christ's death and other martyr's deaths were their victory? I see.

Yeah, maybe he's weeding out the culls? You know, those pesky people who ask too many questions.

Alas, the Gospels do not tell us everything. Jesus never mentions, say, abortion, homosexuality, reproductive technologies or a celibate priesthood, to name just a few of the issues confronting the Roman Catholic Church. How do we know what is "revealed" about them? According to Benedict XVI, only the church hierarchy decides that, with the Pope as the ultimate authority. Because these truths are simply received from God and are therefore nonnegotiable, don't bother asking any questions.

[Skylark]

Perhaps it would be prudent to actually read something written by Benedict XVI instead of relying on Andrew Sullivan to distill the meaning for you. Sullivan himself would not claim to be an unbiased source, I believe. I am surprised that intelligent people such as the posters on this thread are so quick to make pithy, superficial comments about Benedict XVI based on this article.

[girlndocs]

I don't think there's much Benedict could say that would, um, negate the impact of some of those statements.

Unless maybe it was "... Not!"

[Skylark]

I disagree, and I suggest again that you read what he's actually written rather than a smattering of quotations. You will find that even Catholics who like his writings are having extended discussions over the implications over his statements to the effect of "mustard seed faith" - and most of us agree that it does not mean "kicking out the dissenters." You are cavalierly dismissing issues of tremendous theological complexity that cannot be summed up in a one-page opinion piece such as Sullivan's.

[AllyRae]

Asking the Pope to have views other than Catholic views is like asking a democrat to go against liberal viewpoints. THE POPE IS CATHOLIC....therefore, what he preaches is CATHOLICISM... If you don't believe in Catholicism, that's great...but don't ask the pope to be anything but Catholic...not only is it a losing battle, but it makes absolutely no sense. No matter how hard you wish, hope, or dream, the leader of the *Catholic Church* will NEVER be anything but Catholic and support *Catholic* doctrine. So, why the continued rash of "oh, the Pope agrees with traditional Catholic doctrine...he should be liberal and go against everything the Catholic church has believed for 2000 years" threads... Honestly...it's getting a bit ridiculous. Excuse my vent, but if you aren't Catholic, noone's expecting you to suddenly believe this stuff and join the church. But know that just because you read a Time article, you don't really know the ins and outs of Catholic doctrine. Unless you've studied it, you really don't know what it's all about...you only know what you've read and been told. If you're looking for liberal based arguements against the Catholic church, that is what you're going to find... If you're looking for reasons to hate the church or the Pope, you're going to find them. However, on the flip side, if you *honestly* wanted to know more about the Catholic church and not just liberal-biased media junk about it, you could just as easily find that by reading the Catechism, papal enclyclicals, or heck...even asking a Catholic knowledgable on the subject at hand...

[girlndocs]

I think the point is how some of us feel about Catholic doctrine.

I did warn you about the link.

[girlndocs]

These are words Benedict has said on the subject of gays:

"intrinsic moral evil"

Intrinsic. Moral. Evil. Wow. Just wow.

I would love to see any context in which those words could be redeemed

I have zero intention of subjecting myself to anything Ratzinger has written. I owe my self-respect and my blood pressure more than that.

[applejuice]

So, what else is new?

The Pope is Catholic, and so he has Catholic views. That is why he was elected Pope.

After growing up and being educated as a Roman Catholic, I knew at an early age there was nothing for me as a woman in the Church, investigated other religions, and moved on, converting to another religion when I was sure this was the path that I wanted.

[applejuice]

Furthermore, what do you expect from a man who was part of the Nazi Youth and in the German Army during WWII as a young man?

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by girlndocs

I think the point is how some of us feel about Catholic doctrine.

So, is it ok for Catholics to start threads on why they feel other religions are awful? No, that would be disrespectful and it's never really ok to sit there and bash another's belief system. I can assure you that I probably disagree with many parts of your spiritual/religion, but I don't start thread after thread bashing it... I have more respect for people whose beliefs I don't share...because I know that spirituality/religion can be an important part of someone's life. You don't have to agree with something to be respectful enough to not bash it.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Furthermore, what do you expect from a man who was part of the Nazi Youth and in the German Army during WWII as a young man?

I think this is pretty much beating a dead horse... This was exhaustively discussed... Most people who researched beyond the liberal media found out that almost everyone in Germany was forced into it (even some grandparents of members here). At 14, he didn't have a choice...join something you didn't really understand (because there wasn't really media circus coverage back then) or have your family killed... Yeah, he *chose* it...he probably didn't even know what he was getting into...

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by applejuice

So, what else is new?

The Pope is Catholic, and so he has Catholic views. That is why he was elected Pope.

After growing up and being educated as a Roman Catholic, I knew at an early age there was nothing for me as a woman in the Church, investigated other religions, and moved on, converting to another religion when I was sure this was the path that I wanted.

And that's fine... Not agreeing and moving on and finding something you do agree with is fine... It's the constant bashing and disrespecting that's not acceptable. I never once bashed another spirituality or religion of another member here, even if it's something I disagree with completely with my whole being... I just don't join that religion/sect/whatever.

[applejuice]

ITA and I will leave the "horse" alone.

So sorry. I did not mean disrespect.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by applejuice

ITA and I will leave the "horse" alone.

So sorry. I did not mean disrespect.

I'm sorry...I didn't mean to sound snarky... I just get so frustrated seeing a anti-Catholic thread every other day on here... All it does is hurt more people... It just makes me so sad...I don't post hateful things about another's belief system...all I ask is for the same respect...

That, and it's 1:00 AM and I have a baby punching my bladder right now... :LOL

[girlndocs]

It's not "bashing" to point out that someone is doing or endorsing toxic, discriminatory things that hurt other people. Like it or not (definitely not, for me, of course) the Catholic Church has a big influence on "morals" the world over and has many people in its thrall, often people in 3rd-world nations or poor people who don't have access to information to be exposed to the other side of a question.

For someone who is lauded as a moral leader to have such shockingly medieval views on gays and women, and to sway followers with threats of damnation if they should step out of line with those views, is just ... horrific.

I agree that the Nazi thing is beating a dead horse. Get over it already. People change a great deal between 14 and late adulthood and the issue for me is not how he thought and what he did as a teen but what he does and what he thinks now.

[Skylark]

Kristin, if you have no intention of reading anything written by Benedict XVI, you cannot hope to be taken seriously in your criticisms of what you perceive to be his beliefs. If you don't agree with Catholicism, that's certainly your prerogative. Catholic moral teaching is complex and coherent; if you're not going to actually read the Catechism, or the Theology of the Body, or anything written by our current pope, then your comments as to how it's all designed to keep people under control or whatever are not to be taken seriously. I also find it condescending to people in developing countries that you would characterize them as somehow unable to question teachings for themselves. People are perfectly capable of rejecting the Church without esoteric theologians leading the charge.

We're probably not going to come to agreement. I'd just suggest that you be better informed to speak on this subject before you speak in such harsh terms. Myself, I don't agree with everything Islam teaches, but before I'd criticize it, I would make darn sure I really understood what I was talking about instead of relying on the American media to properly explain it to me.

[stafl]

you got links? I'm not afraid to read his actual words. But I doubt I'll change my mind. I'm not bashing your faith. What I disagree with is the notion that people should blindly obey and accept as true something this one particular PERSON says they should. Heaven forbid anyone question any of it or think for themselves.