Am I the only one who wasn't thrilled with the book Unconditional Parenting? - Page 5

[mama ganoush]

going to say right off the bat that i haven't read complete book. excerpts here and there, and articles written by him.

my problem with this book has to do with parenting books in general. What does this man who has never met my child really have to tell me about raising my child?? The only expert on my child is me.

It saddens me to see so many smart mamas ignoring their own strengths and instincts in favor of doing everything 'by the book'-no matter what the book is. why are so many of us so willing to give our power to some man who wrote a book??

also, and this is obviously just my opinion, but i could name a hundred problems with the world right off the bat, and not one of them would be that children are told "good job" when they tie their shoes. I find the whole notion pretty silly. And it becomes yet one more bone that moms (and i say moms cause it is usually the moms reading the books) are being told to heap upon the mama guilt pile by some supposed 'expert'.

i really don't think that some study on birds, for example, has one darn thing to do with how i should parent my particular child. it is just something for the 'experts' to write books to sell and contribute to the moms aren't good enough culture that is so rampant in our society.

[Magella]

:
Oh, mama g, I think I love you!!!

It's so true. All these "experts", all these books.
I know it doesn't all always come naturally and quickly, especially when you weren't raised gently but want to parent gently. Books can give you ideas, things to think about. They have their place.
But really, I finally learned the most about parenting and made the biggest changes by putting down the books and taking the time to really listen to my own self and to really listen to my child. When I realized I actually could be trusted not to totally screw up my kids. When I realized no one else knew my kids better than me (and dh).

[pixiexto]

mama ganoush, I agree with you in most part about parenting books, and yet I *do* like UP a lot. I am not keen at all on what I call "how-to" parenting books; for the most part, I find them to be manipulative and contrived, not to mention preachy.

I suppose I look at UP as more a how I hope to treat other human beings book - more of a philosophical book than a tactic book, if that makes sense. I found myself not doubting myself, but instead feeling inspired.

I dunno, is it just me?

[Venice Mamacita]

Originally Posted by pixiexto

I suppose I look at UP as more a how I hope to treat other human beings book - more of a philosophical book than a tactic book, if that makes sense. I found myself not doubting myself, but instead feeling inspired.

I dunno, is it just me?

: I'm with you on this, pixiexto, that was my response to UP exactly.

This book was a real paradigm shift for me. I'm a shrink who specializes in working with children & adolescents, and I wish ALL my patients' parents would read it (I recommend it all the time)! Truly. AK is absolutely correct regarding his research and discussion of the evolution of Behaviorism and its influence on modern parenting.

The trouble is, we prefer a sheep mentality in our culture. We like control and our ability to create the outcomes we want, but we don't like to take responsibility when things go awry. And we really don't like to think for ourselves. So it's no surprise to me that most parenting books are about child training, as AK discusses.

I don't want my son to be a sheep, and although it may make my job as his mother more difficult, I hope he will question EVERYTHING -- including his father & me.

As I said, the book was a paradigm shift for me, and has changed the way I interact in ALL my relationships, not just the one with my son. If you take nothing else away from it, I hope it's that the motivation for behavior is just as important -- if not more so -- as the behavior itself.

[sadie_sabot]

I am certainly the expert on my child, but I don't parent her in a vaccuum. My approach to parenting is constantly and daily affected by what I encounter in the world (from unsolicited advice to seeing how other parents parent), just as it is by how it works with my duaghter and what I learn from our interactions with each other. My own experiences from being parented also figure heavily into what I will do if I don't think and reflect on my parenting.

I don't thihnk UP even tries to offer tips on "how to parent." It has no useful tips or tricks. (*I like "How to become the parent you want to be" for that kind of stuff. I found it to be much more of a book about shifting opur paradigms, challenging our unchallenged assumptions, and what not.

Very worthwhile reading in my experience.

[**guest**]

: : :

[sadie_sabot]

Venice, we cross posted, and I am in agreement with you for sure.

[**guest**]

Originally Posted by mama ganoush

i could name a hundred problems with the world right off the bat, and not one of them would be that children are told "good job" when they tie their shoes. I find the whole notion pretty silly.

well, yes and no.

saying 'good job' is not just 'saying good job'. it is a certain way to relate to your child, thus constructing a certain relationship pattern with your child and with others around you.

saying 'good job' (the way AK talks about it -- a general praise for everything a child does) means that you (not 'you' in particular, the general 'you') do not pay attention to the particulars of your child's achievement. it means that you are not very mindful and aware, and are somewhat congnitively lazy.

it means that you are making your child dependent on this praise, thus reducing his chances to be internally motivated to help himself and others.

it means that you are reducing the child's self esteem, by making him dependent on other's to know his or her worth.

i could name a hundred problems with the world that stem from the fact that people depend on others to know their self-worth, do not have confidence in themselves, and are generally mindless praise junkies who are not motivated internally, but only by external motivators.

[sadie_sabot]

yah, I mean, think of the playground...oh, good sliding! good swinging! good walking! good breathing! it's freakin' ridiculous! It feels tome like people are tyring to have positive interacvtions with their kids wihtout having to you know, touble themselves to pay attention or converse with their kids. Good falling! good crying!

I feel a lot more engaged when I say "oh, wow, you did that by yourself," and I am still conveying appreciation, you know? Also, I see my dd stay interested longer when I say, "wow, tell me about this painting," than when I say "good painting!"

Mama G, I think the book might not be what you think it is.

[sagira]

Whatever you read, whatever you hear, whatever you feel.. always put the relationship between you and your child first.

Nothing else matters.

[pixiexto]

Originally Posted by sadie_sabot

yah, I mean, think of the playground...oh, good sliding! good swinging! good walking! good breathing! it's freakin' ridiculous! It feels tome like people are tyring to have positive interacvtions with their kids wihtout having to you know, touble themselves to pay attention or converse with their kids. Good falling! good crying!

Oh my, but did you hit it on the head. This is just how I feel about praise - like it is EASIER to just hand out "good this", "good that" then to mindfully interact. I laugh, remembering a friend who would say "good clapping!!!" with enormous enthusiasm whenever her little girl clapped. It was amazing.

Originally Posted by sadie_sabot

I don't think UP even tries to offer tips on "how to parent." It has no useful tips or tricks. (*I like "How to become the parent you want to be" for that kind of stuff. I found it to be much more of a book about shifting opur paradigms, challenging our unchallenged assumptions, and what not.

Tremendously well said.

It's not, in my view, a book of parenting techniques. It is an invitation to shift your World view and how you relate with others.

[mama ganoush]

Originally Posted by annabanana

well, yes and no.

saying 'good job' is not just 'saying good job'. it is a certain way to relate to your child, thus constructing a certain relationship pattern with your child and with others around you.

saying 'good job' (the way AK talks about it -- a general praise for everything a child does) means that you (not 'you' in particular, the general 'you') do not pay attention to the particulars of your child's achievement. it means that you are not very mindful and aware, and are somewhat congnitively lazy.

it means that you are making your child dependent on this praise, thus reducing his chances to be internally motivated to help himself and others.

it means that you are reducing the child's self esteem, by making him dependent on other's to know his or her worth.

well, see, all that is stated as fact, when i don't believe it is. that's one analysis of praise, but it isn't empirical fact.

[**guest**]

Originally Posted by mama ganoush

well, see, all that is stated as fact, when i don't believe it is. that's one analysis of praise, but it isn't empirical fact.

there are countless studies, well controlled and executed, that support this. check the last 20 years or of psychological research.

the opposing point of view (yours?) is deeply rooted in behaviorism, and while behaviorism was revolutionary in its time, it is, mostly a historical curiosity nowadays. sure, it has its applications -- mostly in training severely handicapped individuals. most of its assumptions and principles have been developed based on lab rat research. not to offend the rats, they are highly intelligent, but no one asked them if they were happy running mazes for food pellets, and escaping electric shocks.

so what is your analysis of praise, out of curiosity?

[mama ganoush]

i'm not really here to debate the scientific merit of praise-this was a thread for people who don't think this is the greatest book ever, and i used it as a platform for my general feeling that that there is no book that is thre greatest book ever for my child unless it was written by me.

as for my personal feelings on praise, i don't praise my daughter for every little thing from waking up in the morning to using the bathroom. but i was raised with next to no compliments or positive attention, and i think that is far more harmful than being told 'good job' by a loving parent. i happen to not use good job all that much, but not because some book told me not to. it's just never been one of my phrases.

i believe it is possible, and i'm not sure how to phrase this that won't ruffle feathers, to overthink parenting. to get so bogged down with worry over every tiny detail, that it can be paralyzing. and i think books like this, however well intentioned, add to that. I cringe whenever i pick up a parenting magazine that feeds parents quotes of the exact words they are 'supposed' to use with their children. Like mothers-cause again it is usually mothers reading the stuff-now can't even be trusted to use the right words to praise their child's coloring. i feel the constant second guessing that so many moms do is disempowering, and i think there is an entire industry getting rich off of feeding this anxiety.

[pixiexto]

mama ganoush, I also do not wish to debate & appreciate that everyone has the opportunity to share their p.o.v. Sometimes threads develop into a bit of a different direction, kwim?

The one thing that really stuck out in your post is that you mention "worrying over every tiny detail". I think this general idea comes up again and again, that if the spirit of UP is taken in then it means that we must second guess and worry over all of our parenting behaviors. In my own experience, the impact of UP has been completely opposite. It has opened a window for me - - not that it's message was completely alien to me, but it somehow tied it all up in a way that really shifted my view.

I wonder, is this the general consensus among those who disliked the book, that it causes worry or anxiety in parenting?

(btw, for what it's worth, I am enjoying this discussion and not meaning to cram "my truth" down anyone else's throat)

[sadie_sabot]

Originally Posted by pixiexto

mama ganoush, I also do not wish to debate & appreciate that everyone has the opportunity to share their p.o.v. Sometimes threads develop into a bit of a different direction, kwim?

The one thing that really stuck out in your post is that you mention "worrying over every tiny detail". I think this general idea comes up again and again, that if the spirit of UP is taken in then it means that we must second guess and worry over all of our parenting behaviors. In my own experience, the impact of UP has been completely opposite. It has opened a window for me - - not that it's message was completely alien to me, but it somehow tied it all up in a way that really shifted my view.

Yah.

I am not inclined to argue with folks who read the book and weren't into it. But it's really a mischaracterization to say it's about overthinking every little thing, etc.

For me, the most important thing about this book is how it challenges the widely accepted assumptions of behaviorism, which I think permeate every level of our society. I'd love top see some of the principles of UP applied much more braodly, like, say, to norms of employer/employee relationships and what not.

[Magella]

I don't think mama g was saying that UP specifically is all about overthinking parenting. I think mama g was saying that in general it's possible to overthink parenting and that in general all these parenting books really add to the anxiety and overthinking-and it's an industry built on telling parents (especially mothers) that they aren't wise enough to raise a child and need an expert to tell them how, an industry built on influencing parents to listen not to their children and themselves but to experts who know nothing about their own personal circumstances. I think she was saying that there is no one true, greatest book to tell her how to best raise her child-that she can only find the best way to raise her child within herself and her child and their relationship. I think she was saying that in general mothers can and should trust themselves and their children rather than looking so much to experts to tell them what to do-especially the intelligent, wise, loving mamas here.

I think she has a good point.

As far as UP goes, I think Kohn has some great ideas that our society really could stand to think about. I would love to see behaviorism lose it's hold on our culture. But I think Kohn is one of those who overthinks parenting, though maybe it's just his writing style. I don't think that's a mischaracterization, I think it's how I perceived it and interpreted it. Others will disagree, because they perceived and interpreted it differently. That is one of the amazing things about people, they all think and perceive in different ways. It's very interesting to share with each other our different points of view and our different understandings of the same material.

[sadie_sabot]

something has been bothering me...it's connected to this thread although not directly about the OP, so I apologize if anyone thinks this is inappropriate.

mama g said,

The only expert on my child is me.

and I feel the same way...none of the authors of any aprenting books have met my kid, or know my family, or know all the things that have happened in her life so far, and so on.

But I think it is porblematic to assert that this is widely the case and that parenting books aremore trouble than help because of it. I am thinking about people who are not good parents, for one reason or another. people who suffered terrible parenting themseklves and haven't learned how to do it differently. People who are not able to control their own anger and frustration, people who lack insight into toher people, whatever it is...I think that actuyally more people should get some exposure to some very basic parenting stuff of the just slightly more ap than mainstream variety, a lot less children would end up hurt.

Does that make any sense? I am not in any way trying to comment on anyone's parenting or connection to their kid, but to point out that what is true for some of us is far from true for other people.

[Magella]

Interesting. I think I know what you mean, but I see the problem slightly differently.

I think parents are the only experts on their own children the vast majority of the time, but often other things get in the way of their parenting compassionately or well. (I will insert the disclaimer here that I am very, very reluctant to judge whether someone else is a good parent or a bad parent.) For example, many people do not listen to those deep inner voices that tell them that something they're doing is hurtful to their child because the cultural voices/norms overwhelm those voices (how many moms let their babies cio because they believe they have to, and hate every moment of it?). Or their own preoccupations with other stressful events prevent them from really being in touch with either their children or themselves. Or because they're too busy taking in all the advice from friends and family and pediatricians and the media to listen to their own knowledge of their children and what their children need. Or, or, or.... And that someone didn't have a good role model for parenting doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't the expert on their own child, but maybe that they don't have the skills to use their knowledge of their child to parent effectively. YK?

It's a complicated problem. If there is one thing I've learned since becoming a parent, it's that it's impossible to make a blanket statement without soon discovering that there are exceptions to what you've said. I think most reasonably loving parents do have the knowledge and compassion they need to raise kids, but it gets clouded sometimes. And yes, all those books do can in handy-the books can give you ideas, new ways of looking at things. In other words, they can make you think. This is good. I think what is not good is when people take parenting books less as a catalyst for looking at parenting a new way, and more as a strict how-to guide (which is how many of them present themselves). The reason I don't think this is good is that when books present a "how-to" formula, it's very rarely a one-size fits all formula that can work for everyone. I also think it's problematic when parents automatically assume that some expert always has the answer, rather than listening to their child. I guess I see parenting books as a double-edged sword, offering good ideas sometimes and sometimes really helping a parent improve their relationship with their kids, but also often getting in the way of parents listening to their own kids.

Maybe if our society in general trusted children to learn and grow and believed in their basic goodness, we wouldn't have so many experts telling us how to change them. And maybe parents would not only be more confident, but also more patient and less in need of people to tell us how to handle our children.

Hmmmm. I have been mulling over UP for months, and I can't honestly say that I feel completely one way or another about it. Perhaps that's because sometimes I see it in the "how-to" light even though it's clearly not a "how-to" book-that's not coming out right but it's as close as I can get. Maybe I've been seeing his discussions and questioning of praise and expressions of disapproval as advice (don't praise, don't express disapproval) rather than as simply a way of provoking thought, of forcing people to look at the parent-child relationship in new ways. I may go re-read again, and think about this some more.

[mama ganoush]

Originally Posted by sadie_sabot

I am thinking about people who are not good parents, for one reason or another. people who suffered terrible parenting themseklves and haven't learned how to do it differently. People who are not able to control their own anger and frustration, people who lack insight into toher people, whatever it is...I think that actuyally more people should get some exposure to some very basic parenting stuff of the just slightly more ap than mainstream variety, a lot less children would end up hurt.

i totally agree with this-but ime, it isn't these parents who are buying these books.