I'm making a mess for you to clean up, Mommy

[kavamamakava]

So I've been frustrated for years by my son's desire to make messes. It's so much work for me. He does it for the sheer joy of creating a mess. Well, sometimes it's part of his creative work like painting or something, but lately, he actively looks for things to be overturned, taken apart, dumped out, torn apart and spreads it all out and then runs away.
Yesterday he was walking around with a handful of crayons and throwing them as he walked. I asked him what game he was playing and he told me he was making a mess for me to clean up. I said I would like to play a game with him but I didn't really want to clean up messes because I have an owie bottom (just had surgery) and it hurts to clean up. So he told me he would clean up with me, tossed the rest of the crayons, laughed and ran outside. I asked him if he wanted to clean later and he said no, he was leaving the mess for me.
This is my third thread on the issue. I don't know what to do. I get so incredibly angry when I've spent hours putting things away and he goes around and dumps it out in two seconds just so he can make another mess. What do I do?

Btw, I've done a lot of things. Here's the last thread about it http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=278441
and the one before that
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=193461

[Sandrine]

Hugs, you are a saint for all the patience you have shown him.

I'm really don't know what would help you with him. I think that at 4yrs old, he should clean up no matter what. that's my opinion and some would disagree. He totally knows what he is doing. And he is capable of cleaning after himself. You don't have the time to clean his messes. Like you said you have 2 others children to consider and spend time with them.

I really just wanted to gives you a few hugs.

[4evermom]

I wish I had some iron-clad advice for you. My ds is prone to similar behavior and just reading your post makes me depressed.

I AM curious as to how your ds would respond if you stopped cleaning. Yes, I realize you don't want to live in a complete mess and stepping on toys hurts your feet (I recommend shoes at all times ), just as a one week experiment. It certainly sounds like a power struggle "game" and the only way to stop it is to not play. Although my ds does similar things, he only does them when tired or out of sorts. I KNOW it would escalate into a game if I gave the behavior too much attention. I literally walk out of the room if I think he is about to dump something so that I am not a witness and don't have to react. When he says "come see what I did," I reply that I'm not interested and I don't go see. It also might help if ds doesn't see you clean for a while to take the focus off you cleaning up his messes. I think getting him to clean his own messes is something to consider working on later and the first thing to do is to try to get the "game" to stop being played. Good luck.

[lilyka]

In this house those crayons would have been taken from him right at that moment (come on you know by now cleaning up isn't his bag and until he proves otherwise you have no reason to believe him when he says he will clean it up) and put away for a very long time. anything else he used to make a mess just for the sake of making a mess would also be put away and taken out only with permission and 10% supervision. nothing else messy woul dbe taken out until the first mess was cleaned.

This is one of those things that can at least be minimized with constant supervision. i know you have other children but this would drive me crazy and i would rather have my child at my heals all day bored to tears than running around making unessecary work because he thoght it was funny. Actualy one of my friends kids was not allwoed over to my house because of this very thing. I couldn't deal with it. he is old enough to get the cause and effect here. he is cooperating and cleaning up after himself therefore life is not nearly as fun. Once he proves he can clean up after himself he can start earning back some freedom and some toys.

[kavamamakava]

How do MAKE a child clean up? I have stopped cleaning his room. I think it was a gross mess for about 2 weeks. And then Nadia started cleaning it up. He has announced a mess and told me to come see it. I always refuse and tell him that I don't like seeing messes and I don't want to look. Many things that have mess potential have been locked up. Even the canned goods in the kitchen are now childlocked even though stacking them harms nothing - because he won't pick them up when he's done stacking. Unless we want to live in a padded cell, there's no way to lock up everything from a 4 year old. If I lock up his toys and crayons and all the cabinets in the kitchen, then he empties the roll of toilet paper into the toilet. The whole roll, all at once. If I hide the toilet paper, he wipes his poopy butt on the couch rather than tell me he needs wiping. I could follow him around and see whether he's peeing or pooping or inspect the contents of the toilet directly after he's been in the bathroom, but that would be difficult. I suppose it's a possibility. I have even spent a day where I insisted that he remain next to me all day. He kind of got a kick out of it. But it didn't change much except that I spent the day getting him to stay next to me rather than cleaning up his messes.
*sigh*
I do take things from him the instant he starts making a mess and tell him to stop. And then I'm telling him to stop making messes all day long and he's getting absolutely no positive attention from me because he's taken the lead by making a huge mess and I spend the whole day trying to catch up. It's a bad cycle and i can't find my way out

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by kavamamakava

I have even spent a day where I insisted that he remain next to me all day. He kind of got a kick out of it. But it didn't change much except that I spent the day getting him to stay next to me rather than cleaning up his messes.(

I think this is a good idea and will work if you try it more long term. There was that whole thread a while back about keeping kids in arms reach in order to monitor their behavior and guide them. At least it was somewhat positive attention for your ds on the day you did it. I think it has been helpful to my parenting that my ds doesn't like to be in a different room. Don't think that you will do it for a set amount of time then stop. Think that you are changing the way you live indefinitely. Doing it for a set amount of time makes it seem punitive, a reaction to his behavior. Doing it as a change indefinitely makes it a lifestyle change that is directed at solving the underlying problem of ds wanting/needing more attention. I think the difference is important since it effects our attitude so much. He has been in this habit for a long time and it isn't going to go away in one day.

If your ds is like mine, boredom plays a big of a role in this. My ds is doesn't make messes at other peoples houses but he does when we are trying to get ready to go someplace to do something fun. I don't have the energy to make ds's life more exciting and I'm sure you have less energy with two other little ones to take care of. Are there any summer activities that you could enroll ds in?

My other (unfeasible ) idea is a prolonged camping trip where there are no things to mess up.

[4evermom]

Here's that thread to which I was refering:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...4&page=1&pp=20
My Aunt is a preschool Montessori teacher. She had a student with behavioral problems (pushing and hitting other kids, I think) which she solved (at least in the classroom setting) by keeping that child next to her at all times. She wasn't punitive about it, just always "invited" that child to sit next to her or held his hand and led him around.

[kavamamakava]

I'll try that again. I usually try to include him in everything so that he's not bored and he's supervised. But he dumps things out and makes messes right under my nose, not when he's out of sight. And he says he doesn't want to do what I'm doing. So I actually had to hold his arm and bringing him back to me when he tried to wander away on the day that I made a point of keeping him with me.
I would love to go camping!!

[gaialice]

Big hugs to you for your patience.
I haven't got time to read your other threads, so forgive me if I repeat stuff that's already been posted. I think that:
- your DS is trying to get your attention ... so GIVE it to him, that moment, if by any means you can do that
- you have become locked in a powerstruggle over the problem of making messes ... none wants to lose this battle of wills
- your son is getting locked in the role of the captain destructor
In my opinion, coercion (of whatever nature) will not solve any of these problems, or any other parenting issues for that matter.
I would find a way to play around this issue.
Like:
- say "if you drop another crayon I will have to EAT you!" And chase him around the house
- act like the village fool and intentionally drop all his crayons. Then pretend you have found sanity again and wonder aloud about why did you drop the crayons, what you can do about it... try to engage him in the role of the mom of the village fool. This works well with my daughter, she gets to understand how it is to mother "me" when I act crazy...
- try when he's calm and collected to have a conversation with him about why he acts this way and what to do about it. Tell him you are ready to let him play with dough, play with water, with sand, ask him what he would like to play with.....
I recommend reading Playful parenting it is full of ideas on how to deal with this stuff. It takes time, but the issues I resolved through play were successfully resolved. Really.
Mom to 4-year-old dd1 2-year-old dd2

[kavamamakava]

Thank you gaialice. I do have that book. I guess I was in a rut about how to apply it here. Thanks for your suggestions. He was going through a violent phase for a bit when I would try to correct him. He would just get mad and hit me. So I started pretending we were boxing and going "put em up, put em up." He really loved that.
We've been doing well since Friday, actually. I've been making a point of keeping him with me and trying to be more playful rather than angry. I've been on pain meds due to a recent surgery. Maybe I'm just too mellow to get worked up about anything. :LOL But I'm glad things seem to be getting better.

Thank you for helping me out, everyone

[emmalala]

I don't know if this might work for you, but sometimes I just "stop the clock" and absolutely nothing else happens until the mess is cleaned up or the problem is solved. I just pretend I have all the time in the world (ha ha) and it makes them think - somehow! Mine are 5.75, 3.75, 13mo and this has not always worked but at times it does.

I pick up from your posts that you want him to help you clean up. I would want him to clean up, and maybe have me help after he had a good start on it...

You say he runs away laughing, but how do you receive him when he comes back from that...?

I myself would probably simply put away everything he made messes with, or do something like sit in a room with him and a mess until he got so bored he actually cleaned it up. Of course you'd have to pick a mess he could manage. And that is probably against GD anyway.

I don't mean to minimize the difficulties of working on this with your whole family to care for, though!! I am very impressed at your patience.

[kavamamakava]

Oh believe me, I would rather he just cleaned it up without my help. I just thought that I might get his cooperation better if I participated in the clean up as well. I have stood there and waited for him to do it. But he eventually throws a fit or starts wigging out or finds a way to make it worse. Or he outwaits me because I have another kid to deal with.
It's really impossible to put away every potential mess. I mean, he'll take the cushions off hte couch and throw them around the room if there's no train track set to dump out or kitchen cabinet to empty.

We're doing better though. No major mess since Friday night.

[Dawn-o-might]

What about trying a little reverse psychology??

Make cleaning up seem like the biggest joy in the world, but tell him he's not allowed to help. Maybe say something like "This is fun!, it's my turn to clean up, not yours." and then if he offers to help, let him, but seem to do it reluctantly, saying something like "NO!NO!NO!...it's my mess to clean; mine all mine!!!"

Or maybe order him "Don't you dare clean up this mess"; "You'd better not clean up that mess"; or "If I come in there and that mess is cleaned up you are in BIG trouble, mister" Then when he cleans it chase him around the house and tickle him.

Good luck!

[kavamamakava]

:LOL Dawn. I might just try that. I always feel so mean tricking them though. But he'll love the tickling and chasing part at the end.

[Fiercemama]

You are one patient mama, and I applaud you for trying to find a way out of this situation.

Does DS have other tasks around the house that he can take responsibility for, no matter how small? Helping change the loads in the washing machine, feed the cat, put bottles in the recycling bin? Would he take ownership of some responsibilities around the house, and get some positive reinforcement for those? Maybe these would be a bit out of the sphere of your current power struggle? Just my 2 cents.

I am trying to get my DD to pick up her things at home. She is good at helping with little jobs, grabs a rag when she spills, but won't put away her toys. I think I saw a little glimmer in her eyes when I explained that it was not my job to keep the house tidy and clean, but that we all had to do it together. I don't think this idea had occured to her before until I put it into words, as of course Mama does most of the housekeeping!

[kavamamakava]

I like the idea of giving him small responsibilities. He doesn't want the ones I suggest though
I've tried having him be the one to wipe the table since he loves to spray stuff and wipe. He won't do it. Maybe it's because I suggested it. He also won't feed his dog or put his shoes in the closet when I suggest. I've tried introducing and suggesting things in many many different ways. He just seems to be a dirty messy kind of person. When he eats, he gets rid of the silverware and digs into the food with his fingers and smears and slimes it.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Dawn-o-might

What about trying a little reverse psychology??

Make cleaning up seem like the biggest joy in the world, but tell him he's not allowed to help. Maybe say something like "This is fun!, it's my turn to clean up, not yours." and then if he offers to help, let him, but seem to do it reluctantly, saying something like "NO!NO!NO!...it's my mess to clean; mine all mine!!!"

Or maybe order him "Don't you dare clean up this mess"; "You'd better not clean up that mess"; or "If I come in there and that mess is cleaned up you are in BIG trouble, mister" Then when he cleans it chase him around the house and tickle him.

Good luck!

This kind of thing works really well with my ds, too. He knows perfectly well that I DO want him to do what I am telling him not to, but the temptation to "disobey" is too great to resist!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Have you tried building a cleanup time (or three :LOL) into your daily rhythm? Like before you go to the park or after breakfast or before story time. This is something the pre-K schools where I live do and I think it works very well. They frame it before a transition to another fun activity, they sing a song during that time and are consistent and this seems to motivate the kids well.

[kavamamakava]

Hrmmm. We don't have much of a predictable schedule except for dinner at 6 and then bath at 7, jammies, books, bed. Maybe I should work on a schedule. But I hate schedules so I don't know how this will work out.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

We don’t have a schedule either. DC is also a big mess maker. For our family, I think there’s a relationship between these two things.

Is your child generally eager to please in other aspects of your family?

Another thing that *works* but I find difficult is to just fully, totally expect him to do something that you ask. It should feel similar to when you ask your friend to pass the salt ~ like you fully expect cooperation.

Maybe you could try this out of the house to see if it works. Like ask him to put something in the garbage or something. If it works maybe you could see if you can gradually transition into this way of talking.

What do you think of this?