How to handle this? Will we ever see dsd again? LONG

[mammastar2]

Hi there,

This has been a huge issue in our lives for a long time now, and it's not getting any better - I'm looking for any suggestions you have on how to handle it. Let's see if I can explain it to it makes sense...and I'm sorry for the length - please read it and help if you can.

I have 2 stepdaughters, ages 9 and 5, as well as a daughter who is 3. We all used to live in the same city. Dh and I were as involved as their mother would permit in the dsds' lives - school volunteers, taking care of them on sick days, etc. We had them alternating weekends, holidays, and a weekday evening. Dh had been a stay-at-home dad pre-breakup, so that didn't feel like much for him, and he always asked to provide extra care whenever their mom needed it. Throughout that whole time, she did whatever she could to keep the kids' access to their dad minimal - long hours of care, sudden cancellations, making transitions difficult, negative comments about us to the kids. We had a good relationship with the kids, but the stress of going back and forth under those circumstaces was not good for them or for us. When we had a daughter together and dh became a stay-at-home dad again, it felt really awkward all around that he was available full-time to offer care, but that their mom would not increase their time with dad.

So, when I got offered a job in another city far away, we agreed that I would take it and that dh, dd, and I would move. My older dsd was really happy, and looking forward to having homes in 2 cities, thinking visiting a new city to see dad would be neat, and explicitly looking forward to not having so much 'back and forth' and conflict. We had to go to court to get an access schedule for after the move as their mom would not agree to any access. The court agreed with our pov on access, and set pretty generous holiday and telephone access. Their mom was very upset.

Through the first 2 summers, both girls came out to see us. The older one has experienced a lot of trouble despite her initial enthusiasm - some nasty stretches with telephone access, where she would scream at her dad ("you need to apologize one thousand times for everything you've done wrong ever!" kind of thing) or hang up on him, or go completely monosyllabic, a hard time sleeping off and on while with us. While with us, she has also seemingly had a good time - we made sure she got one on one time with her dad, they saw a counsellor together to adjust to the move, she helped pick out summer activities ahead of time. Maintaining meaningful access has been challenging overall with both kids, as their mom tells them not to give us certain information (where they're going, what they're doing, for a while what school they were attending), does not help them send letters/cards/pictures (although we do), and pulls stunts like not sending them with the right gear or refusing to take their calls from our house then telling them we won't let them talk to her. She has major, major issues and has had them long enough that I can tell you they aren't going anywhere.

The last 2 access periods, the 9 yo hasn't come. The mom brought it up first, saying that the 9 yo refused to come - eventually the 9 yo confirmed this. The 5 yo has flown out on her own twice, but is having some issues about coming when the 9 yo doesn't, understandably. There have been periods where the 9 yo is really difficult to deal with on the phone, lots of anger and hostility. But most of the time she is absolutely hungry for details of what we're up to, wanting home videos and pictures, and to know what her 3 yo half-sister is up to - except that she now says she isn't a 'real sister' and that it's ok never to see her again. She has said she won't come this summer, which will make it a year. Today, dh asked her if she would like to come for just the last week that the younger one is here, instead of the full time. She said "yes, yes, yes!" and said she'd put on her mom to work out the details. Her mom got on right away with no intermediate conversation with the child, and said that the 9 yo in fact never wants to see her dad again, that it's all his fault, and that he is never to bring up access again. This right after dsd sounded thrilled and said she wanted to come! Her mom then wouldn't let dh speak with his daughter again. He's so worried he'll never see her again.

So...what do I do to help him? How do we continue to support/stay in the lives of both these girls? How do we explain this to a 3 yo who loves her big sisters to death and keeps wondering if it will be the older one's turn to visit her soon?

[Marlet]

I'm sorry! I'm not quite sure what to tell you. Maybe take the issue of their mom being bad in regards to the lies to her children (the phone call things) and the bad mouthing to the court and see about getting a stricter visitation time? I have no diea if that would work or if it would be worth it (if anything would change). Sorry this is happening like this!

[mammastar2]

Thanks for the hugs!

We've decided against court. Two main reasons -

1. We have on good authority (our lawyer, who I respect - I'm a lawyer too, though not family law, thank goodness) that all we'd get from a court would be another order much like the first, which bio-mom would then treat pretty much like this one. Our current order is very specific about dates, and even days and times for phone calls, because the last judge didn't think their mom would facilitate access otherwise. The general trend in family law is not to enforce anything about access or create consequences for the uncooperative parent, on the theory that this would hurt the child living with them. I think that having it be that wishy-washy creates more conflict and manipulation, personally, but that's what we're working with.

2. Emotional and financial cost. We want to be there for these kids, but we don't want all our emotional and financial resources to get poured into a court battle. This probably wouldn't be good for them, for our marriage, or for our 3 yo, whose needs could end up all coming second to the endless court battle over her sibs.

So, if that's what we're left with, what do we do to maintain what contact we have (the conversation today made it clear mom is calling the shots regardless of what her kids express about wanting to see dad) and leave open the possiblity of it growing again in the future? How do I deal with dh's grief? How do we explain this to our youngest? Honestly, even the simplest things like what to do with family photos feel totally unmanageable - we have the other kids' pix everywhere, and the 3 yo natters like they'll be here sometime today!!

[L.J.]

I am so sorry to hear about your situation. I find it difficult to understand when a parent stand in between the relationship between child & other parent.

Is there any way your husband could fly out and see his oldest daughter? Maybe spending some time with her would help and if the mom is trying to prevent her from coming to your place, maybe he could fly out and just make a little effort there? I realize that the mom will likely have MAJOR issues with that, but maybe there's a way.

I would encourage all of you to keep as much contact as possible. Allow her to feel her anger and emotions and give her as much support and love and encouragement as you can in letters and phone calls etc. I'd also suggest keeping copies of all the letters etc that you send. If the mom is not giving them to the kids, at some point, you can give them to the kids and show them that you were consistent in love and support along the way.

You may not be able to see her for awhile. Kids often though, start to see reality, though it's hard if she's being poisoned with harsh words. But at some point, I believe she will come looking for him again and I hope there will be a way to heal the hurt.

What a difficult time for your family. I wish you all peace and love.

[mammastar2]

Thanks so much!

We are trying to just steel ourselves to hang in there for the long haul, but it is hard.

Him flying out there may be a consideration - although it would be terrible if he went and then didn't get to see her (possible) or got massively jerked around jumping through all kinds of demeaning hoops (very likely). I don't know if we can afford it, but we may look at the 3 of us going out for a week as a family. Even if he sees his daughter on his own, at least he'd have the reality check of being part of a less screwy situation (him + me + dd) in the big picture. We could also frame it in terms of a family holiday to see all our friends and family there, so we're not as emotionally invested in whether or not we get to see the kids. There's still the $$$ issue, but we could price it out. I wonder how we would talk about it with the 3 yo though - she knows that's the city her sibs live in.

[Marlet]

Does the oldest daughter have email? I know it's not always as personal but even keeping in contact via email is bound to help. Who knows? Maybe she'd be more likely to share her concerns and what not if it was in writing and not in person/over the phone. That would also cut down on the mom's need to help them send a letter through the mail.

I know in divorce with child custody there are laws stating that hwen the child is a certain age they make their decisions regarding who they live with etc. Maybe check into your states particular law and see if she's old enough to decide visitation and what not. If she is sit her down and explain that because she is of age in the regards she can make the decisions if she wants to (but doesn't have to if she doesn't want to.....don't put the whole responsibility on her, kwim?). Let her feel as if she has some lee way in it all. Like I said though, that depends on your state and I have no idea if there are laws regarding just visitation (I know there are for who they live with).

[Storm Bride]

I know you don't want to take the court route, and I can understand that. But, I would recommend documenting everything that goes on. Keep written records of the lies you know the mom is telling the kids. Keep written records of incidents such as the 9-year-old saying she wanted to come for a week, then her mom not letting dh make any plans, etc. Keep records of everything, including any contact with her you facilitate, and the fact that she doesn't do the same for you.

If nothing else, you have something to point to later on. Their mom is poisoning their minds, and I'm afraid I can't see any way to prevent this. Unfortunately, it will cause long-term damage to your husband's relationship with his daughters. Their mother is being completely heartless and has no right to do this to her children...but I don't see how to stop her.

[mammastar2]

Yes, I think we're coming to realize that - we've feared it for a long time, but always put out 110% in trying to stay positive and involved and supportive for the kids. There's just no way to deal with them without her messing with it, unfortunately.

We still do some documenting. It has really trickled off though, more for sanity's sake than anything else. The first few years of our relationship were filled with documenting - she said what? she did what? we have to write that down! But after a certain point, that's just not a healthy way to live, and we've mostly let it go - occasional markers, but that's it.

Aaargh. I've always just said I had 3 kids when folks asked, then qualified it as necessary to explain 2 are dh's from a previous marriage. Still, I at least have some emotional insulation from all this, since I can back into my 'stepmom' role. But I don't know what to do for my husband, or any of the 3 kids....

[Flor]

I would consult lawyer for advice. We see our lawyer 2-3 yimes a year and hasn
t been a court date in 6 or 7 years. Sometimes a strongly worded letter from a lawyer changes things for a while. I also think you should all plan on going to see the girls, even if it is hard it is important!!!!!!!!! It is really hard for kids to go back and forth and you might need to plan a yearly trip to see them. How far away are they? Would shorter, more frequent trips work better? Plus, there have been times when dss did not want to go with his mom,"refused" but we said he was too young to have the responsibility of deciding (and the weight of dissappointing his mom), He'd go. We'd check on him an hour later, he was fine. I don't always trust that young kids understand their feeling about these things, they probably just feel yucky and their mom decides its because they don't want to go. I would let kids have a little bit of say like going home a day earler but to not come at all? I am shocked. Talk to your lawyer, at least.

[Katt2005]

I am so sorry about your situation. That so horrible for all of you to deal with. Teh only thing I can think of is for you all to visit the girls. I think it would mean alot to them to see you guys make the move to see them ykwim? That would show them that you guys really do care about them and about seeing them. Good Luck

[moondiapers]

Originally Posted by mammastar2

Thanks so much!

We are trying to just steel ourselves to hang in there for the long haul, but it is hard.

Him flying out there may be a consideration - although it would be terrible if he went and then didn't get to see her (possible) or got massively jerked around jumping through all kinds of demeaning hoops (very likely). I don't know if we can afford it, but we may look at the 3 of us going out for a week as a family. Even if he sees his daughter on his own, at least he'd have the reality check of being part of a less screwy situation (him + me + dd) in the big picture. We could also frame it in terms of a family holiday to see all our friends and family there, so we're not as emotionally invested in whether or not we get to see the kids. There's still the $$$ issue, but we could price it out. I wonder how we would talk about it with the 3 yo though - she knows that's the city her sibs live in.

What state is this that allows her to so blatently violate a court order. She's 9 years old, she doesn't have a choice, she HAS to go to visitation, in most states anyway. We're in CA and my dd can't even have a say until she's at least 12, and even then the judge only takes it into consideration in his ruling.


-heather

[Marlet]

I really think you should look into emailing on top of it all. I know I have said it once and I did point out that it's not as personal but it helps! We have a site for DSS to go to where we have new pictures and things like put on it (it's a page on DH's business site so we have access to adding things all the time). When we get to talk to him (now twice a week!!!!! ) he'll ask if we have new pictures and if we do can we put them up so he can see them. If you could come up with something like that so you guys keep in contact that way plus email plus phone calls plus visitations (whether they come to you or you to them) things would run more smoothly I bet. Just an idea but definitely one to look into.

[mammastar2]

We do email, and we know dsd checks it sometimes, although she doesn't send anthing back. Her mom also accesses it, and at one point deleted everything we had ever sent her, and dsd stopped checking it. We'll try sending more stuff, though. We also send pictures and home videos, and she seems really keen to get them.

We may try the trip out - if we all go, it will be several thousand dollars, so it will take some planning. There is also the risk that we still won't see her.

It's not a state, we're in Canada. It isn't really that the courts are ok with a little girl making a choice under pressure not to see her dad - we have an order, and it sounds good on paper. The problem is that if one parent doesn't comply with the order, in a family law situation there's very little the courts will do, on the theory that disturbing the status quo isn't in the child's best interests. Which creates an incentive to obstruct access. When courts are actually determining access in the first place, they don't go with whatever the child purportedly wants, because they don't want the child pressured or manipulated, or to feel forced to choose between parents. Hence bio-mom's dislike of the court system.

BUT, although she hates the court system in so far as the access order recognized the legitimacy of her kids seeing their dad, bio-mom loves conflict. She just likes to keep control over it, and keep it at a level where she feels she is calling the shots, part of that being knowing that her ex is expending all of his emotional energy on crises that she creates. That's part of the reason why I'm not so sure that low-level resorts to the legal system, such as a letter from a lawyer, will work here. Part of the kick for her in manipulating her kids is knowing that, even though she doesn't get to see dh squirm in person on a weekly basis now that we've moved, he's still out there feeling anxious, going to lawyers, spending his money on the conflict, etc. That seems to just feed her appetite for conflict further. If a letter from a lawyer were to lead to a real consequence (e.g. we get custody), that would be one thing, but in this case, the court system and our finances being what they are, it wouldn't.

Basically, we're stuck dealing with someone pretty pathological, trying not to feed the pathology more than we can help, and trying to figure out how we can relate to the kids without prompting their mom to hurt them further (because if she does this, she can hurt her ex, and that's really, really important to her). I wish I could take your advice and run with it, and it's exactly the kind of thing I thought of when I got together with dh, before I fully took in how far 'off' his ex is. You or I might be dissuaded from a course of action by the conflict that it brings, by reason, or by concerns about hurting our kids. She's not.

[Flor]

You seem defeated. When dealing with the ex, I think "that will never work" but sometimes it does. Are you postive about these assumptions you have about the court system or have you just been told? What does your lawyer say? Does your lawyer really say, too bad, won't work, this is the best you can do? I am honestly shocked since we found ourselves drivind dss 600 miles round trip, putting ourselves up in a hotel at our expense, to visit his biomom several times a year since our lawyer said we need to prove that we are not only passively allowing access but helping it, seeking it, planning it and encouraging it, in order to keep "full custody." Different countries, I know, but when was the last time you actually talked to your lawyer?

[mammastar2]

We talked to the lawyer before the first access denial, at Christmas. I'm fairly sure her advice was generally sound. I'm a lawyer too, although not in family law, and I have a decent understanding of the parameters of what the court system can/cannot do in these situations. Certainly, showing yourself to be an 'access-friendly' parent is handy in securing an order in your favour if you're the custodial parent, just as showing yourself to be eager to exercise access is important if you're the parent seeking it. If, on the other hand, you're a parent who will ignore any order that you provide access - well, the court may think that's not very nice and give another order that you should provide access. But wait, we're talking about a parent who ignores orders... In one case, a dad was no longer required to pay spousal support (not child support) because his ex had ignored about ten access orders - but the court admitted it could do nothing to get the child to see him. Court orders in this case work on the premise that people will think they need to follow them.

I don't mean to sound defeated, exactly, but bashing our head into the same wall we've been bashing it into for 5 years just isn't an option. As I said, I know the financial and emotional toll it would take on our family - I remember loading up our credit cards with legal bills two years ago, and it really is pretty pointless, unfortunately.

I hope that this doesn't sound heartless or like I'm just giving up on these girls. But we've all lived through five years of really awful conflict, that just one person in the situation thrives on, and I think we need to figure out how to disengage from the conflict and be as constructive as possible in relating to the girls however we can, while also preserving our own sense of self/identity (which in the past has come from being part of a family of five). Gearing up for round fifty-seven doesn't seem like the best way to do that. So, I guess that's the issue I need help with - not sure where I should look, the grief and loss board, or a thread for steps with problems with access to their kids? Hm.

[MilkOnDemand]

Mammastar2 ~ i hear you loud and clear about not wanting to take the court route. It is expensive emotionally as well as financially, and it rarely leads to anyone being pleased. Family court is tricky because so many people are involved, and the most important ones are the children....
Nine year old's are children. She is mimicking what her mother wants her to say/do/feel because that is where she resides and who provides all of her care.

Her feelings are *real* and definately deserve acknowledgment....it must be horrid for you, your dd and your dh, because what you are experiencing is indeed a loss. I'm not sure that an expensive trip would serve to remedy anything. However, I think that you and dh should continue to make the calls, continue to send the email and mail, and to continue to show love and support to your dsd - whether she visits or not. Right now she can't make mature decisions, but someday she will be able to, and it will be important to her that her dad never ever gave up on her, or stopped loving her. For him (and you) to admit total defeat isn't neccessarilly healty, but you both need to come to terms with the fact that right now she is not going to visit...someday she will...

Sending warm thoughts to you.

[mammastar2]

Thanks, Tara! You know, if someone had told me a couple of years ago that these kids would be unable to avoid mimicking their mom, and that we might just end up not seeing them and having to deal with it, I would have been so offended - but I was in a very different place right then.

I guess we'll keep doing our best, but that won't mean the same things that it used to. Still, the ultimate goal is, so far as we're able, to help them feel loved and to find some peace for ourselves.

Thanks for the observation about dsd's feelings. It can be hard to remember, when she starts sounding freakily like her mom, which pushes our grown-up buttons. We're trying to strike a balance, be supportive and understanding, and not respond how we would to her mom.

The younger one's kindergarten teacher just faxed me her monthly newsletter - it's funny how unproblematic it seems to other folks to keep us in the loop. At the beginning of the school year, bio-mom switched their school and wouldn't say where they were attending. Dh tracked them down, contacted the school, got them the custody documents (legally he has joint custody, believe it or not), had get-to-know you chats with both their teachers and the principal, has us receiving newsletters and report cards, and got school photos through the photo company. This stuff is pretty hard to do long-distance with no support from the other parent. So, we're not exactly defeated, we're just focusing on what we can actually do. He's an amazing man!

[alegna]

Hugs mammastar2- that sounds so very difficult. My opinions come from watching some dear friends go through this growing up (as the kids in this type of situation) and the fact I am far to stubborn and mama-bearish for my own good.... All of that said- I think it is very important for the kids to see dad FIGHT for them. Really fight. Whether that be legally in the courts or with mom to enforce the standing orders. I had more than a couple of friends who felt abandoned by the non-present parent because they didn't really fight to keep in their lives in a real way. From a kids point of view (and even more as young teens) it is really easy to see the situation as dad not REALLY wanting to see them. If he REALLY wanted to see them, he would make it work. Even if he has the best intentions in the world in backing off, to a child it is easy to feel abandoned.

Just my perspective. I hope the mom comes to her senses and puts the children first (not likely, I know, but we can hope.)

take care and good luck to you all,

-Angela

[Flor]

My perspective on the expensive trip is that we (courts/society) seem to assumethat the child will come to the parent. For many kids, I think this is frightening, distruptive and they might feel pushed around by it. Maybe we should (not just in your case) start working with the idea that sometimes the kid comes to the parent and sometimes the parent comes to the kid. In our case, the noncustodial biomom used to come to dss every other time they had visitation (which was monthly or bi monthly). It was a 600 mile round trip (and as I said before, we drove him the alternate time) by car or by plane with hotels or campgrounds invovled. None of us are rich by anymeans, but this was an expense we just had to work into our budget. I think dss liked that it wasn't always him doing the traveling and that his mom put forth the effort too.

I don't think that anyone would advocate pulling kids into court for years long bloody battle. Maybe it is because we are in different countries but I believe FIRMLY we would have lost primary custody had we done half the things this ex. is doing. I can't believe the court system there is so stand off ish there, because here, they really have enforced things in our case through loss of vistation time and even a police presence (not that that is a great thing but it stopped certain things from happening).

Sorry if I seem to be typing/speaking sharply, I think I am feeling frustrated with your court system!

[mammastar2]

I had no idea our systems were so different on this, Jennifer! I wish ours had some more teeth to it, instead of the "oh well, it's family conflict, what can you do?" attitude.

So far as dsd knowing her dad is "fighting" to see her, well, we're trying to figure out how to transmit that in a reassuring as opposed to a frightening way, and without actual fighting, if you see what I mean! She knew we went to court two years ago because her parents couldn't agree about her spending time with us when we moved, and she was so thrilled about the judge's decision at the time. She also knows every time they talk from her dad how much he loves her - he always says so. He has also put out different solutions, like he did this weekend with just coming for a shorter period, and I know she gets his emails and letters. So I suppose in that sense we're doing an ok job with what we can.

Thanks everyone, for continuing to read this mammoth thread - it is really helpful actually for me to be able to write this down and bat it around, instead of poor dh and I just going in circles.