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A word from a teen - Page 2

post #21 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenFedNed
When i'll have to join the army however, It'll be hell.
I had no idea that this was mandatory. What is the reason? Probably not a logical one, I guess.
post #22 of 98
Like Frank said, if your parent's are supportive you have great allies in creating something incredible for yourself. Find a dream. Apply in another country for a scholarship?, peacecorps? simply move and get a job? Start digging and I am sure you will find something. If you are old enough to be in an army you sure are old enough to start your own exploration. Opportunities are plentiful: more so than many people think they are.

Good luck to you.
post #23 of 98
Thread Starter 
Well, I’ve been trying to contact UK's, USA's immigration offices and asking them for advice but I never got any reply.
As for parental support - my mom doesn’t know about this problem, and if she will, her choice would be to circumcise (yeah, I know ).
I might get some money for tickets for the plain and maybe a bit more as after studying programming and system development (just to get money to move out of this place!) I found a programming partner and we might sell a couple of programs (he's from UK).
Either way, with some money or without, I have nobody abroad who could provide me place to live in until I pay off the bills and buy an apartment.

I'll be grateful for your suggestions as I’m totally depressed from all this...
post #24 of 98
I wonder if ARC would be interested in an asylum case. . . .
post #25 of 98
To OP. Have you ever contacted www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org (there is a contact us - link on their site). I know they have connections to Israel, maybe they would know how to find support group - you cannot be the only intact male there.

ps. http://www.kahal.org/
post #26 of 98
Thread Starter 
Those support groups are for:
1) Jewish
2) Before/After army

Doesn't really work for me in any case. In army you don't chose who you want to be with.
The only way is to leave this country (which I wanted to do the past 8 years)
post #27 of 98
I've never heard that those organisations would not help anyone who asks advice and help - jewish or not.

Do you still have citizenship of your old home country Ukraine? Any relatives there?

Have you concidered a conscientious objector status? I know they throw you in jail for that - no matter what your religion is - but maybe better than 3 years in army?

I recently read an article about parents in Israel leaving their sons intact, so you absolutely cannot be the only one.

As far as moving to EU countries, it isn't easy. Even if you come to study, you have to have lot of €€€€ to get a study-visa. Not to mention other VISAs or residency permits. You might get a short term visitors/student visa but then you have to go back to Israel and army(how old they still draft?)

USA is even more difficult especially after 9/11 & homeland security laws and especially the area you are trying to immigrate from. It would be a very long process, lot of questions asked in small rooms under bright lights and you would have to have really really good reason and lots of $$$$$$$$$.

Not very comforting, I know :/
post #28 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenFedNed
..
And yeah, being intact in a place like this is hell.
Most of the intact people i know got circumcised because of peer pressure and because they were afraid to get beaten up in army.

I just hope I could move somewhere before it's too late :-/

I am really sorry to hear of your situation. I do think it speaks volumes, that even though the social pressure is high, you still value being intact. Usually I hear from people saying the "locker room" situation is so terrible that it's more humane to circ than let a boy be teased. In my opinion, it's the teasers that are the problem, not the foreskin.

I hope you are able to escape your country.
post #29 of 98
Thread Starter 
kxsiven, yeah i can do many things to get in jail. But then I will never be allowed to leave the country (and lets just say, i wont be able to live with that).
Plus I'll still have to join army afterwards

Quote:
I recently read an article about parents in Israel leaving their sons intact, so you absolutely cannot be the only one.
Yeah, some are intact, untill army. Even the small % who stay intact doesnt make it any better.

Thank you all for the advice!

Any other suggestions?
post #30 of 98
what an awful situation! I hope you are able to find a way out of joining the Army. you have lots of time to work out a plan at least and get out of there!
post #31 of 98
Thread Starter 
2 years might seem a lot (i'll be 16 in a month) but it really isn't .

I'm still open to any suggestions
post #32 of 98
i don't mean to be dense, and please forgive me if i'm being an idiot, but ~ could you just leave?
post #33 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by klothos
i don't mean to be dense, and please forgive me if i'm being an idiot, but ~ could you just leave?
He's only 15. To me it sounds like he is way more mature than his years though, too bad that doesn't count for more than actual age.
post #34 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
He's only 15. To me it sounds like he is way more mature than his years though, too bad that doesn't count for more than actual age.
Thank you for not treating me as a kid.
Unfortunately, as you have said, maturity is being count in years, not wisdom which means I can't "just leave" now. What I’m trying to do is finding a way to leave when I’m exactly 18. Or either find a way for me and my mom to move.

In any case I appreciate your suggestions but I'm still open for more.
I have to find a way
post #35 of 98
edited
post #36 of 98
Oh my God, what a horrible, horrible situation you're in!

Young Israelis are really forced to do military service and they go to jail if they don't want to? There's no official conscientious objector status? They don't have any legal protection against being harassed and beaten up by fellow soldiers? Whoa, some more reasons to doubt the story of Israel being the "paradigm of freedom and democracy in the region"... I mean those are absolute basics for a free society! And yeah, I agree that it's because otherwise the ones in power would soon run out of human material to fight their war(s)...

But that doesn't help with your situation of course...

Try to contact the peace movement or human rights organizations in Israel. There must be others who don't want to join the army and they must have ways to help those young people, contacts to get them out of the country and support them abroad, whatever.

I think the idea of studying somewhere abroad is a good one. As far as I know, at least in Europe, it's not that difficult to be allowed to stay in a country as long as you're a student. And once you've established yourself and have got your diploma, there might be new opportunities.


Quote:
Either way, with some money or without, I have nobody abroad who could provide me place to live in until I pay off the bills and buy an apartment.
As a foreign student, you can get scholarships and usually there are students' hostels etc. where you can live very cheap. Contact the offices for international students at a university you could imagine attending and I'm sure they'll be able to help you. If you're good with computers and programming, it should be relatively easy to get jobs as a casual worker to begin with. You might face some hard years without luxury of course, but in the end, it will be worth it.


Maybe your case would even be enough to be awarded asylum? It sounds like a combination of forced military service, threat of assault and battery in the military, religious discrimination (BTW, just curious, what religion do you identify yourself with, if any at all?) and pressure to have an involuntary body modification done. I once read of a case in Germany where a Turkish man got accepted because he was afraid to be involuntarily circumcised. Yep, here it is:

http://www.courtchallenge.com/papers/addend1.html

In 1991 a German court awarded political asylum to a Turkish man based on his fear of forced circumcision. The court found:
There may be...no doubt that a circumcision which has taken place against the will of the person affected shows...a violation of his physical and psychological integrity which is of significance to asylum.

Judgement of 5 Nov. 1991, BVerwG, Bundesverwaltungsgericht Federal Administrative Court, 107 DVBI 828-830 (1992).

Someone already mentioned ARC – ask them about it: http://www.arclaw.org


Maybe you could also start a support group of young men in similar situations, create a website, an e-mail list, or something like that. The more people, the more ideas and solutions how to avoid military service. Maybe intact men in the army, even if they are few, could begin to support each other and form a "front" against the others.

If it all fails and you end up in the army and being harassed for having a foreskin, try to remember that they're most likely doing this to you because they envy you, because your intactness threatens the system of thought they've build to be able to deal with what was done to them.

The best of luck to you!

Stardust
post #37 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Young Israelis are really forced to do military service and they go to jail if they don't want to?
Yes, as far as I know (not sure about Jail, but I believe it will result in military court hearing)
Quote:
They don't have any legal protection against being harassed and beaten up by fellow soldiers?
Not really, as it's rare.
Quote:
Whoa, some more reasons to doubt the story of Israel being the "paradigm of freedom and democracy in the region"... I mean those are absolute basics for a free society! And yeah, I agree that it's because otherwise the ones in power would soon run out of human material to fight their war(s)...
That’s exactly the reason why I want to get out of this country so desperately.
Quote:
(BTW, just curious, what religion do you identify yourself with, if any at all?)
Well, my mom is a Christian (I even have a godfather, not here though). Despite that I identify myself as Atheist.


Studying abroad will not help me as I’ll have to join army as soon as I get back.
Support groups cannot do anything on military level.

I've never heard of the asylum thing. Is it some kind of money award or something that helps me move to a normal country?

PS: Yeah I’m good in computers. All this time I was studying in hope that I will find a job before army and with my knowledge I'll be able to earn enough to immigrate. Guess I was wrong
Anyway, I know/study system programming (NT kernel and WDM), C, C++, ASM, VB6/NET and good "computer technician" knowledge.
I don't know if it will help anymore...

I thank you for your reply and still waiting for any other suggestions/thoughts...
post #38 of 98
Thread Starter 
Just found this in google...

... Israel does not recognize conscientious objection and many of the men must
serve time in prison for their refusal. This is a brief overview of the ...
post #39 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedFedNed
I've never heard of the asylum thing. Is it some kind of money award or something that helps me move to a normal country?
I know it seems like money is the answer. It certainly has some asnwers.
But beware of condemning yourself just because of the lack of money.
That old quote "Where there's a will there's a way." is quite useful. There is a book titled "The Long Walk" which is an extreme account about just that concept and what someone is capable of doing in dire circumstances.
If what you have been thinking of doesn't work start thinking of something different.

BTW How long until service in the military becomes obligatory?
post #40 of 98
Thread Starter 
I will have to join the army in about 2 years and stay there from 2 to 3 years depending on how much lucky I'll be.
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