A word from a teen - Page 3

[desertpenguin]

What about your godfather? Is it a possibility that you could go live with him?

[TenFedNed]

I don't know him and for many other reasons it will not be possible.

[kxsiven]

As far as I know, at least in Europe, it's not that difficult to be allowed to stay in a country as long as you're a student.

Well, if you come A)outside EU and B)outside any exchange program, most EU countries make you go through tests + they need you to show that you have lots of €€€€ to support yourself, so it isn't that easy unfortenately.

Mybest bet would be human rights organisations, as mentioned before people have gotten asylum/refugee status in fear of involuntery circumcision. Though I have to warn you that most human rights organisations do not take it seriously. Male circumcision is such 'a hot potato' because the religious aspect that no one wants to deal with it. If a human rights organisation took a stand against male circumcision it would cause an uproar in religious circles. Maybe ICGI could give you some advice?

http://www.icgi.org/

The only way is for you to write everywhere you can think of. I am 100% sure that you aren't the only one in this situation.

I'm still puzzled by the harassment in military though. Since you are not jewish why would they be teasing you on you being intact? Are they jealous because you have it all or why? I really don't get it.

[TenFedNed]

I'm still puzzled by the harassment in military though. Since you are not jewish why would they be teasing you on you being intact? Are they jealous because you have it all or why? I really don't get it.

That's exactly the problem. I'm intact which means i'm not jewish... You get the point.

[polarbear]

Fear = Reality?

I have been following this thread and there seems to be a couple of points that I still am unclear on:

A) Is this the way you feel it works...Non-Jewish man in Israeli army = physical abuse? Surely with the broad mix of Christian, Jewish and Muslim men in the country, and a mandatory service in the military, there is enough variety that an intact male might be uncommon, but not rare.

B) Is the fear real? I know it is a real concern for you, or you would not have brought the topic up. What I am asking is whether your fear actually reflects reality. One of the main arguments for circumcision in America is that ‘our son will get teased or ridiculed in the locker room’. Although I am circumcised, I have never witnessed this, and many others on this site can also attest that they have never witnessed this teasing on themselves or others. I will admit that people can be cruel, and that teasing of someone who is intact does happen. I will also admit that there COULD be teasing of someone with prominent ears, or a birthmark, or is short, or who’s father dresses like a teenager, or or or. I would strongly suspect though, that the locker room teasing is more myth than reality. The fear alone of that teasing is enough (absurdly) to justify the circumcision decision for many parents.

I am wondering if your fear of what-might-be is causing you stress, when reality may be completely different. Have you witnessed a non-Jewish man in an arm cast for being intact in the army? Have you personally seen anyone desert the army for the relentless abuse they took for being intact? You mention that you know people who were circumcised prior to being drafted to avoid the teasing…how many names can you give me of people who got it done after entering service?

I am not trying to talk down to you, but I am well aware of the ‘I knew a guy, who knew a guy, whose uncle had to (fill in the blank)’ scenarios. Again, this has been an absurd reason for parents to circumcise their sons. According to the Canadian Pediatric Society, 10 in 1000 boys will have to get circumcised later (1%), yet if I listen to all the ‘My brother knows a the guy on his soccer team whose father…’ stories, that figure should stand at about 50%.

Can you definitively tell me examples without giving general ‘I heard…’, or ‘everyone knows…’ statements?

I am just trying to say that not all of our fears come true. I would hate to have you worry for two years, petition Amnesty International, leave the country, go to jail, or worse be circumcised, for what turns out to be a groundless fear.

Be proud!

[Frankly Speaking]

Polarbear, I have little doubt his concerns are valid. Israel is a very different country and situation than would be in North America. There are many reports of men in Africa, The Middle East and The Far East being taken from their homes or chased down outside and forcibly circumcised by gangs of people. Sometimes it is with the cooperation of their families.

Asylum basically means "Safe Keeping." Generally, asylum is requested once you are in the United States. Application for asylum is made to The State Department and is usually granted on the basis that the applicant is in danger of serious bodily harm or death if he/she remains in their own country. The State Dept. considers the merits of each case to come to a decision of whether to grant asylum. The asylum is either permanent or temporary until the situation in the home country is resolved and safe return could be assured.




Frank

[TenFedNed]

polarbear,
You requested a better example... So here it is. I talked to a brother of someone who wanted(and was) circ'ed while in the army because of the same problem (he wasn't beaten up because he was still jewish though).

Yes, there is a threat. It's very extremely rare for non-jewish intact people be in the army for various reasons (answering another question of your's).

Frankly Speaking here they didnt reach that barbaric state as some arabic countries, but it seems that it is still not good enough.

so does Asylum help me move to the USA? And how big is the chance of getting it?

EDIT: Wait, I can get it once Im in the USA? Maybe I didnt understand the point of it :S

[OceanMomma]

I think if you want asylum, it would be a better idea to try some obscure country where circing is not common. I hope you find a solution as it sounds like a horrible situation.

[kxsiven]

I very highly doubt that USA would grant anykind of refugee status based on male circumcision because USA circumcise most of it's babyboys.

You would have much better luck with countries like Germany, Scandinavian countries, Netherlands etc.

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by TenFedNed

so does Asylum help me move to the USA? And how big is the chance of getting it?

Generally not. The only way I can imagine that would already happen is if you were already a refugee and needed a safe country to settle in. There are refugees from Somalia for instance who have been brought to the states for resettlement but that is not the norm. This would only be the case where there is grave and demonstrable danger.

EDIT: Wait, I can get it once Im in the USA? Maybe I didnt understand the point of it :S

It's not guaranteed. You apply for asylum once you get here and hope you get it. There are organizations that will help with the paperwork and legalities and maybe even provide legal representation. I'm not sure what the Govt's responsibility is in this situation. If you are a citizen, the Govt. has to provide you with legal representation if you can't afford it but the rules are different if you're not a citizen.

If you are approved, you have legal status here and can not be deported unless you commit a major crime or unless the dangerous situation is resolved. Generally, once you have obtained asylum, you would be free to stay here as long as you like. However, it would be unwise to ever go back to visit Israel as that would demonstrate that the danger no longer existed. In other words, you would not be able to go back to visit your mother in Israel. You would have to visit her some where else. You could also be arrested in Israel for avoiding military service, so ever going back would not be wise.





Frank

[TenFedNed]

If i ever manage to get out of this damned country I will NEVER want to go back.

Sorry for the impulsive post.

[Frankly Speaking]

That's a pretty broad statement. Imagine if your mother or another family member became gravely ill, incapacitated and needed care or needed assistance in leaving the country or passed away. You would not be able to go back there to assist them or attend the funeral. Just like circumcision, this is a final decision and should not be taken lightly or impulsively. BE sure you understand all of the rammifications of the action.




Frank

[TenFedNed]

I have considered this and I have come to conclusion that leaving this country forever is the best option.

[wendy1221]

I am wondering if perhaps your fears are a little exagerated (not your feelings, but what would actually happen). It is my understanding that most Russian JEWS who emigrated to Israel were not circumcized later, let alone uncirc'd non-Jews. I happen to be friends with a few uncirc'd (yes, I asked!) Russian Jews here in the US. I don't think you will be the only one around who is not circumcized. So why would they beat up a non-Jew who wasn't? Circumcision isn't even absolutely reqired for Jews, why would they expect a non-Jew to conform to their norm? Here are some links to pages I came across:
http://www.circlist.com/rites/israel.html

In the next one, Dr. Goldman mentions the anti-circ movement in Israel. There are a lot of Jews there who don't have their son's circ'd. Probably more than there are in the US. http://www.noharmm.org/goldmanbalt.htm

Jewish Circumcision Resource Center http://jewishcircumcision.org/
Here's the Israeli site (in Hebrew) http://www.kahal.org/

I'm a little disappointed by the stereotyping and prejudice I've found in this thread. Most of the posts have been respectful and insightful, but there have been a few that carry definite anti-Semitic messages. This site is for people of all cultures and religions, please remember that. There are probably a lot more Jews around than you realize. Even Jews who frequent this particular sub-forum.

[wendy1221]

Just out of curiousity, how is it that you write so well in perfect American English if you are from a Russian-speaking country and now live in a Hebrew-speaking country? Just wondering.

[crazy_eights]

Originally Posted by TenFedNed

Yes, there is a threat. It's very extremely rare for non-jewish intact people be in the army for various reasons (answering another question of your's).

You know, I find this kind of hard to believe considering that there have been almost 1,000,000 immigrants from the FSU to Israel and there is an estimate that 50% or more are non-Jews. How this happend is a whole 'nuther story, but basically you can claim Israeli citizenship if you can prove one Jewish relative. Since as other posters have pointed out, it is hard for people from the FSU to emigrate elsewhere, Israel has become a haven for people looking for a way out of Russia, Ukraine, etc. There have been articles lamenting how many Israeli new recruits to the army how request to take their induction oath on the Christian Bible. Seeing as circ. was banned in the FSU (for religious reasons, btw - not human rights issues) you have about 1/2 a million intact men that have arrived in Israel in the past 15 year or so. Even assuming that most of the Russian Jews opted for circ once arriving in Israel (and that is far from true as well), there is still a lg. number of intact men running around.

And as for 'holding people down and circing them' - eh, nope, not in Israel. Yes, I'm Israeli (dual citizen) and it just ain't happen that way Frank. Oh - and compulsory service isn't rare for many European countries that aren't at war - including Germany, Finland and *gasp* the UKRAINE!

[crazy_eights]

You can read on another thread about how the OP wound up in the situation he is in today. Shocking that he is seeking assylum elsewhere, eh?

[kxsiven]

The difference to Finland is ofcourse that a)you have the option to do civil service so you can work 'your time' in social field for example. b)army service is only 6 months anyway c)you can do your army service but refuse to take gun in your hand and so on.. - oh, don't get me wrong, I hate the forced army/civil service, no matter if it lasted 3 years or 1 day. One thing I would change in my country if I had The Power. Ofcourse it is here because of the ongoing thread of Russia.

I don't know what to think about Israel - like I said in earlier post on this thread I have never heard forced circumcisions of non-jews in jewish communities/countries. I find it indeed very hard to believe. But knowing what happens in armies in general behind closed doors(even in 'civilized countries')how can anyone of us know for 100% sure how intact men are treated in Israeli army - are they treated differently in different units etc.? And the fact remains that most intact guys do get circumcised when they get into the army *because of the pressure* - where does this pressure come from?

Parents? Friends? army buddies? officers? Where?

Also. As I come from a country were freedom of speech is very much valued I find it very strange that suddenly I should only speak sweet things about one country? And that if I say one negative opinion I am immidiatelly anti-something?

So kick me out from the board then. I think that Israel indeed violates some basic human rights of people. I feel same way about USA. And Russia. And Scandinavian countries. Romania treats gypsies horrible. Belarussia is still under dictatorship. And I don't even start with countries were Islamic laws are followed.

OK, did I now insult everybody equally? Did I forget something? Or someone?

[crazy_eights]

Originally Posted by kxsiven

And the fact remains that most intact guys do get circumcised when they get into the army *because of the pressure* - where does this pressure come from?

Parents? Friends? army buddies? officers? Where?

You are relying on a 15 year old for your 'facts'? Or you have evidence from elsewhere of this 'fact'?

Armies are not nice places, agreed. The problem I have is that Israel is a priori assumed to be an aweful, human rights abusing country and it MUST BE TRUE what this kid is telling you. How many posts did it take before someone questioned what was really going on? Is this any reflection of the truth? Is it possible this kid might have other motives? How the heck did he come to be in Israel in the first place?

The truth is, he could return to the Ukraine if he wanted. There he would face compulsory military service, not to mention a much lower standard of living. Obviously this option does not appeal to our OP. Yet most other countries won't have him at this point. What a dilemma. He is not without options - just not options that he finds appealing.

[calpurnia]

Originally Posted by kxsiven

The difference to Finland is ofcourse that a)you have the option to do civil service so you can work 'your time' in social field for example. b)army service is only 6 months anyway c)you can do your army service but refuse to take gun in your hand and so on.. - oh, don't get me wrong, I hate the forced army/civil service, no matter if it lasted 3 years or 1 day. One thing I would change in my country if I had The Power. Ofcourse it is here because of the ongoing thread of Russia

I don't think you have to have a gun in your hand when you do military service in Israel either. My aunt didn't, I don't think (speaking of which, her brother is intact & was in the army. Maybe he missed the penis inspections?)