A word from a teen - Page 5

[Stardust27]

I can only second what calpurnia said. Do not try to "sneak" into a country, that is bound to be exposed and backfire very painfully sooner or later. Once they deported you, you won't be let in again even for a short time stay. Play fair and try to make yourself attractive with a good education, that's your best chance IMHO.

You might want to add Australia (http://www.smca.com.au/, http://www.activescgroup.com/)
and New Zealand (http://www.auswandern-neuseeland.de/e3.htm, http://www.immigration.govt.nz/) to the list – they might be a bit more open to immigrants than overpopulated Europe.

Stardust

[tayndrewsmama]

TenFedNed, how much have you discussed this with your mother? I don't recall much mention of talking your feelings and plans over with her. Forgive me if I am wrong though. It just sounds like what you want to do is very serious and should not be pursued without at least talking to her. I understand that she may not ultimately agree with you, but atleast then you wouldn't be doing this without her knowing. KWIM? She would atleast have the opportunity to help you if she realizes just how serious your concerns are. If she chooses not to, well then atleast you know you tried to enlist her help in the matter.

[TenFedNed]

Was wondering... I have relatives (uncle, aunt) in Canada, could I use them in the "i want to visit my relatives and skip army" technique?

[TenFedNed]

Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama

TenFedNed, how much have you discussed this with your mother? I don't recall much mention of talking your feelings and plans over with her. Forgive me if I am wrong though. It just sounds like what you want to do is very serious and should not be pursued without at least talking to her. I understand that she may not ultimately agree with you, but atleast then you wouldn't be doing this without her knowing. KWIM? She would atleast have the opportunity to help you if she realizes just how serious your concerns are. If she chooses not to, well then atleast you know you tried to enlist her help in the matter.

You were right. I've never talked to her about this except once murmuring something about me getting money to immigrate or something alike.
Despite that, I perfectly know that she herself wants to leave this country (not sure about me leaving alone, but I think it's pretty obvious that this won't stop me from leaving this country, and I believe that I do have the right. Especially when Ill be 18)

[PuppyFluffer]

This discussion has moved from one of circumcision to one of leaving a country and moving to another. TedFedNed, can I suggest you start a thread in "Finding Your Tribe" or "Talk Amongst Ouselves" to see if you can find some members who have done what you are interested in doing? You may be able to get some information from people who have gone through the process.

[TenFedNed]

Thank you all for your advice!!
The thread has been recreated in http://www.mothering.com/discussions...71#post3101371
for further posts please use the new thread.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by calpurnia

I don't think you have to have a gun in your hand when you do military service in Israel either. My aunt didn't, I don't think (speaking of which, her brother is intact & was in the army. Maybe he missed the penis inspections?)

FTR the actual fact is that the "penis inspection" is to DEDUCT points from one's score if it has been operated on (circed). When the score gets too low you are rejected from service. Circumcision, "even" in the Israeli army is considered a physical defect. I think the score for a circed male starts at 90 instead of 100 but I'm not sure on the exact number right now.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by TenFedNed

Someone I know who is in army now told me that they are assigning me to a place in army when I'm about 16 (not too far from now :S).

Now, that I *know* is not true. If your score is too low when you go to your first appointment at lishkat hagiyus then they reject you. Also it takes awhile from when they accept you to when you get your placement.

[calpurnia]

Originally Posted by BelovedBird

FTR the actual fact is that the "penis inspection" is to DEDUCT points from one's score if it has been operated on (circed). When the score gets too low you are rejected from service. Circumcision, "even" in the Israeli army is considered a physical defect. I think the score for a circed male starts at 90 instead of 100 but I'm not sure on the exact number right now.

I was actually joking about the idea of penis inspections

[LookMommy!]

BB, I have to tell you - I think that -1 score for a circumcision is just a joke. No one male or female, gets a perfect 100.

On the other hand, I asked my dh (Israeli born, served 4 1/2 years in army, still goes to reserves, has a rank of captain I think) about the OP situation, and he felt that with all the Russian-speakers in the army these days, many of them not circumcized, it really wouldn't be a big deal. He was the only observant Jew in an all secular Jewish plattoon. He said it wasn't a big deal. (No one resented him for the things he couldn't do on Shabbat, etc.). He said the only "violence" he sees in the army today (note, there certainly could be more that he doesn't see) is maybe name calling (well I see this in every traffic jam - Israelis are hotheads) and pushing/shoving (not right, but also seen on every playground/schoolyard). Out and out harrasment can be dealt with within the army hierarchy. Yes, there is prejudice against Russian-speakers (many of whom might not have chosen to come to Israel if they had better options), but it is not institutionalized discrimination.

However, if you (the OP) want to get out of Israel, I would recommend following the advice given earlier -- go back to the FSU. Personally, I'm not so happy with the idea of someone defending my country who doesn't even want to be here. Or even better, stay here and work for the changes you would like to see happen in our society, as does MK Natan Sharansky.

I wish you luck in whatever you choose. My daughter will be in the army in 6 years, and my son in 9, and I hope they will feel proud to serve, and that the Israel they will defend will be worthy of their pride.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by calpurnia

I was actually joking about the idea of penis inspections

They get a full physical. A perfect body, no surgery or modification gets a certain score, circumcision takes that score down. No, I don't think its a joke lookmommy. You think circ (minor surgery) does not count as surgery but arthroscopic knee surgery does. I have a dh who would have served but he wasn't allowed to- he has spina bifida.

[LookMommy!]

Sorry, BB--I still think it's a "myth". At least that's what my dh says. Or else a female (no circ) could theoretically get a 100, which isn't done. I'll see if I can find someone more knowledgeable to ask. In any case, I don't think anyone would argue that the condition of one's penis is in any way relevant to one's army performance.

Also, re con. objectors-- everyone goes in the army (well, with exemptions for some Arabs -- Druze and Beduin serve--, some "ultra" observant Jews--there are many who combine army with yeshiva, and some people with physical or mental or psychiatric disabilties, oh yeah and not pregnant or married women who are released from the draft, did I forget anyone?) but obviously not everyone serves in a combat unit. So in that sense, it is more like national service, with units for education, service, band, etc.

There are also programs for combining university studies with army, working on kibbutz as a part of army, etc.

I never served because I came at age 23 and married 3 months later. My husband does reserves.

Here's to the day when Israel won't NEED an army--

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by LookMommy!

Sorry, BB--I still think it's a "myth". At least that's what my dh says. Or else a female (no circ) could theoretically get a 100, which isn't done. I'll see if I can find someone more knowledgeable to ask. In any case, I don't think anyone would argue that the condition of one's penis is in any way relevant to one's army performance.

Any surgical procedure makes one less than perfect in terms of army service. Maybe your husband's examination at lishkat hagiyus was too long ago. It is not a myth that there is a point scale and any surgical procedure and any kind of defect- physical or otherwise brings your score lower- milah included. Where is the myth?
And yes, I have known a guy in perfect shape, 18 never had surgery of any kind, no defects who was told he would have "gotten a perfect score except for the bris".

Also, re con. objectors-- everyone goes in the army (well, with exemptions for some Arabs -- Druze and Beduin serve--, some "ultra" observant Jews--there are many who combine army with yeshiva, and some people with physical or mental or psychiatric disabilties, oh yeah and not pregnant or married women who are released from the draft, did I forget anyone?) but obviously not everyone serves in a combat unit. So in that sense, it is more like national service, with units for education, service, band, etc.

There are also programs for combining university studies with army, working on kibbutz as a part of army, etc.

I never served because I came at age 23 and married 3 months later. My husband does reserves.

Here's to the day when Israel won't NEED an army--

Amen!

[TenFedNed]

Hi
I haven't been on for a while, and im sorry.
I am 16 now and will probably go to "lishkat hagiyus" soon.

I was wondering if anyone knows if i could somehow convince them not to conscript me during the interview. Any suggestion will be appereciated.
Someone i know said he explained that it is not his country and he would only be waiting for the end of his service and they didn't conscript him. I don't know if i should believe him or if i should try the same.
It wouldn't be lying of course. I don't feel any connection/relation to this country. I just want to be out of here.

Please. Any comment/suggestion would be highly appreciated

[Fi.]

I say tell them the same thing your friend did.

[LookMommy!]

I feel very sad for you that you have no feelings for Israel, after all that the country has done to absorb you, grant you citizenship, subsidize your family financially (as is the right of every new immigrant from the FSU), give you a free education, etc. I am sad that Israel has failed you in teaching you Zionism and a love for your fellow Israelis.

As an immigrant myself, wife to a reserve soldier and mother of 3 future soldiers, I truly feel that you must have thwarted values not to want to give back to your country in terms of community service (I am not saying you should be in a combat unit if you do not feel inclined, but there are teaching units, social service units, etc.)

However, I can also imagine that your life experience has been different than mine, and certainly I am aware that Christians from Russian backgrounds often face discrimination from their peers in school that I would not be subject to. I wonder if you could talk to a teacher or school advisor about your issue.

There are many information sessions for parents for pre-army teens where you might be given some options. You should also look into studying abroad. Of course, going back to the FSU should not be difficult if you have maintained citizenship and have family there. I understand that if you were to run away from Israel and the army, you may not be allowed back to visit your mother, so that is a risk you should consider. I know a family in that situation, where the American born son can not re-enter Israel where his family lives, but that is the choice he has made.

It is unfortunate that you came to Israel not by choice, since I'm sure your feelings would be much different if it had been your decision. I wish you the best of luck with your choices.

[BelovedBird]

Go back to Russia or fake mental illness at the lishkat hagiyus.
Or tell them you are a former drug addict.
I don't really advise lying but it will get you out of army service....

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by LookMommy!

I feel very sad for you that you have no feelings for Israel, after all that the country has done to absorb you, grant you citizenship, subsidize your family financially (as is the right of every new immigrant from the FSU), give you a free education, etc. I am sad that Israel has failed you in teaching you Zionism and a love for your fellow Israelis.

As an immigrant myself, wife to a reserve soldier and mother of 3 future soldiers, I truly feel that you must have thwarted values not to want to give back to your country in terms of community service (I am not saying you should be in a combat unit if you do not feel inclined, but there are teaching units, social service units, etc.)

So, you're here to lay a guilt trip on him? It was not his choice to end up in Israel. He is not Jewish. It's not his culture or his family's culture. Why should he just automatically embrace all of the Isreali culture? Israel may well have subsidized his family and given them the free education. (Does his family not pay taxes for that education?) That was his parent's choice, not his. Maybe his family owes something that they are not paying for through taxes they pay but this boy has been on a bus he did not pay for and did not want to get on. Does he have an obligation to defend or pay for the bus? NO! If he intends to stay in Israel, he should make his contribution but if not, he has no obligation. That obligation belongs to his family who made the decision and are enjoying the benefits.



Frank