circ and marriage

[aira]

Just thinking out loud... I wonder if circ has any culpability in marital problems that result in divorce? Meaning, does circ have a hand in the rising divorce rate?

Note: I'm not personally in danger of divorce over this, or anything else. I do feel other factors are way more important determiners for divorce. I certainly do not think that circ is *the*reason* people get divorced.

But could it be a contributing factor? I mean, there is a fundamental discrepancy in how women and circed men experience a basic human connection. Can it be that this robs couples of a method of healing their other natural differences? Maybe some marriages could overcome more stress with a healthier sexual connection.

I know that my DH's circ is directly affecting our lives, as the sex is troublesome for the most part, and OK at it's best. I'm finding that it makes for a multifacited problem, in that the sexual miscommunication *creates* marital stress and other issues that would not be a part of our relationship if not for the sexual issues, and also we don't really have that outlet for healing our differences.

Any other random (or well-articulated) thoughts on this...??

I'm just

[aira]

I'm finding that it makes for a multifacited problem, in that the sexual miscommunication *creates* marital stress

OK I realized that I don't like that word "miscommunication" there. It's not. It's what we're left with after he was tortured and robbed of his foreskin. I shouldn't beat around the bush about that. The "miscommunication" is that he can't feel what he has every right to feel.

Sorry for the little rant. I had to correct that verbiage.

Please... discuss... I'm really curious about others' thoughts on this topic...

[Frankly Speaking]

Let me pose some other relevant questions to throw into the stew:

(1) Research 80 years apart found exactly the same results that circumcised men are 40% more likely to masturbate. They are also more likely to engage in alternative sexual practices. Is this because they subconsciously know they should be getting more gratification from sex? Do they stray from marital bonds looking for the sexual experience they subconsciously know they should be getting?

(2) Men report that years after marriage, their wives put them on a sexual "diet" that does not satisfy their needs. Can this be circumcision related?

(3) Circumcision has been implicated in Female Arousal Disorder that when severe enough would mostly or completely eliminate sexual relations between husband and wife. Could this account for mid-life divorces?

(4) Circumcision has also been implicated in mid-life impotency. Can this be a contributing factor in divorces over 50 years old?


Food for thought and discussion . . . .



Frank

[A&A]

It's also possible that a circ creates a deep-seated, subconscious inability to fully trust other people (in some men). After all, it's extreme pain and shock when the neurons are really vulnerable.

[Kathryn]

I wouldn't be shocked at all if it was. Sex is very painful between me and my husband because his glans pulls all my natural lubrication out. I am allergic to any kind of ky or anything like that so I just kind of just grind my teeth through it , but it's brought our sex life to a very slow drip. That's one of the reasons he's now going to be restoring.
We've gotten in many many many fights (large fights) because he's not feeling sexually satisfied. I can't do some things because of jaw bone problems (sorry TMI) so we're both very sexually frustrated.

[Jane]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

because of jaw bone problems (sorry TMI)

Actually, I believe that's TMJ, not TMI...

[woobysma]

Originally Posted by Apricot

Actually, I believe that's TMJ, not TMI...

Holy Crap, good thing I had just swallowed my coffee, or that one would have ruined my keyboard :LOL

[lunadoula]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

I wouldn't be shocked at all if it was. Sex is very painful between me and my husband because his glans pulls all my natural lubrication out. I am allergic to any kind of ky or anything like that so I just kind of just grind my teeth through it , but it's brought our sex life to a very slow drip. That's one of the reasons he's now going to be restoring.
We've gotten in many many many fights (large fights) because he's not feeling sexually satisfied. I can't do some things because of jaw bone problems (sorry TMI) so we're both very sexually frustrated.

So sorry to read this. fwiw, dp and I are both *very* sensitive to most lubes, b/c of the glycerin in them. You can get better lubricants through mail order though. We use these lubes called "maximus" or "liquid silk" and you can get them through www.goodvibes.com . They don't bother us one bit.

[aira]

because of jaw bone problems (sorry TMI)

Hilarious! I didn't know if I was reading a typo at first and laughed at the "pun". And then this:

Actually, I believe that's TMJ, not TMI...

:
-------

Frank, those are great points. I had been thinking about the subtler, less dramatic effect on relations - stuff that's harder to trace - but your points have a lot of merit here.

Could you explain #2 further...

Thanks!

[Marsupialmom]

Since I have been divorced I don’t think we can completely blame circ.

I was as much of a pin head in my first marriage, we were both very selfish.

After 50 divorces can more be caused by the changes in life rolls, retirement becoming financial stable and having to work less. Then the partners hit more conflict because they are crossing into each others territory. They spent XY amount of years together and know that the kids are gone have nothing incommon. Or they don't feel they have to stay together anylonger "for the kids".

[hummingbear]

Where's the popcorn?

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by aira

Frank, those are great points. I had been thinking about the subtler, less dramatic effect on relations - stuff that's harder to trace - but your points have a lot of merit here.

Could you explain #2 further...

Thanks!

Sure.

(2) Men report that years after marriage, their wives put them on a sexual "diet" that does not satisfy their needs. Can this be circumcision related?

I often hear men lamenting their sex life after marriage. They talk about how it has tapered off to occasional or less. They clearly want more than they are getting.

We know that circumcision permanently alters the mechanics of sex from a gentle act to an almost agressive act in most cases. One of the changes is from a short stroke to a very long stroke and deep thrusting. Sex as nature intended it is nothing like this but instead is short and gentle strokes. Add to this, the immobile shaft skin of the circumcised penis and there is considerable abrasion at the vaginal sphincter. That abrasion can be anything from stimulating in the case of young women with ample lubrication to very painful to (especially post menopausal) women with less than optimal lubrication. Men with intact genitals move within their own skin sleeve so that there is little or no abrasion at the vaginal sphincter and the woman's vaginal lubrication remains inside the vagina instead of being pulled out.

The hypothesis is that this abrasion in extreme cases can be so uncomfortable that the woman will become adverse to sex. In milder cases, it may distract her from the pleasure of the act that she is so distracted that she has difficulty achieving orgasm or is totally non-orgasmic. One of the requirements for a continued sexual desire is the memory of a rewarding sexual experience in the past and a desire to repeat that experience. Even if the discomfort is minimal, it can have an effect on the subconscious. While the woman still desires sex, she is going to be less desirous if it's a trade-off of reward or discomfort.

If there is a connection, these men would become frustrated in having a sexual desire that was not being met and may become aggressive, withdrawing from the relationship, going outside the marriage for satisfaction or any number of other actions, all of which would be destructive to the marriage. The women could also become distressed and realize that they are not receiving the sexual experience they should be having and may take the same actions.

The logical progression of this would be an end to the marriage as the partners became more and more frustrated and unsatisfied. Unfortunately, with the situation in America today and for the forseeable future, it is unlikely to be any better with another partner unless the next partner for the woman is genitally intact. There is no such rosy future for the man unless he discovers and does a foreskin restoration.

Of course, all of this is theoretical and there is very little empirical proof for any of it. It's just bits and pieces of information, research, anecdotal evidence and logic and reason. It just makes me wonder if circumcision has an influence in the high divorce rate. It's interesting that the divorce rate has followed the circumcision rate upward, just about 30-40 years later which if there is a connection would be the time frame expected.




Frank

[aira]

Since I have been divorced I don’t think we can completely blame circ.

Well, I think I said this:

I do feel other factors are way more important determiners for divorce. I certainly do not think that circ is *the*reason* people get divorced.

And:

But could it be a contributing factor? (snip) Can it be that this robs couples of a method of healing their other natural differences? Maybe some marriages could overcome more stress with a healthier sexual connection.

----------------------------

In milder cases, it may distract her from the pleasure of the act that she is so distracted that she has difficulty achieving orgasm or is totally non-orgasmic. One of the requirements for a continued sexual desire is the memory of a rewarding sexual experience in the past and a desire to repeat that experience. Even if the discomfort is minimal, it can have an effect on the subconscious. While the woman still desires sex, she is going to be less desirous if it's a trade-off of reward or discomfort.

This is very much my experience. Arousal has become very trying for me, and I can't imagine that, having known my former self! Sorry to get too personal, but in addition to the problem of intercourse, DH has a difficult time with other methods of pleasuring me because he cannot understand the process leading up to it. For him it's like, erection... enter... thrust... ejaculate. Over. He feels nothing much else. Even his orgasms are unspectacular. (His circ is quite thorough.) So he's lost any ability to understand what could make me tick b/c he doesn't have a framework from which to relate. It is brutal to his self-esteem. And I don't know how to help him.

From another side of this issue, a previous partner of mine who was circed was an incredible lover. He was somehow able to understand me, even if his experiences were different (though I don't think he was quite so impaired as DH). Upon later reflection after we were no longer together, I realized that his abilities (and his pride in them) were an expression of his overly developed need to exert control over his sexuality. While it was very enjoyable at the time, I could see that it was perhaps not exactly healthy, and would've led to other issues, had we stayed together.

It's interesting that the divorce rate has followed the circumcision rate upward, just about 30-40 years later which if there is a connection would be the time frame expected.

That's exactly what I was noticing when I started this thread. I'm sure there will be no hard information (hehe), but you're right that:

It's just bits and pieces of information, research, anecdotal evidence and logic and reason.

Thanks all for the thoughtful conversaion!

[Kathryn]

Originally Posted by Apricot

Actually, I believe that's TMJ, not TMI...

What I have is actually TMD. My jaw and facial muscles are constantly cramping for some reason. I've tried muscle relaxers, mouth trays, etc.. nothing works.

[Kathryn]

Originally Posted by lunadoula

So sorry to read this. fwiw, dp and I are both *very* sensitive to most lubes, b/c of the glycerin in them. You can get better lubricants through mail order though. We use these lubes called "maximus" or "liquid silk" and you can get them through www.goodvibes.com . They don't bother us one bit.

Thanks for the link, I'll show it to dh....

[aira]

It's also possible that a circ creates a deep-seated, subconscious inability to fully trust other people (in some men). After all, it's extreme pain and shock when the neurons are really vulnerable.

A&A, I think this is another very real and tragic issue!

[jessjgh1]

I"ve been following the threads on restoration and such with interest. I'd love to bring it up to dh, but it is not the right time.

I think that sex has always been a problem in our relationship. We have different needs when it comes to intimacy. I do know that Ihave always had a low sex drive. Couple that with my need to have my emotional needs first, with my husbands need to have his sexual needs met first- and you've got some conflict.

Now since having our son and learning about circing, I DO think that sex is different for him because of the circumcision that he had. Obviousy, it is what he is used to, but it just isn't what my body needs. Of course, this is all my thinking because I don't think he would be receptive to this information yet.

I guess, the emotional/physical needs problem is something I assume is USUALLY gender based and USUALLY an issue (the whole venus & mars thing). Now I see that circumcision could be a possible contribution/cause.

I do have to remember that when we were dating (in college) I remember having more of a sex drive. And I have to remember the more you do it the better it gets... because that seems to be true, too. But it sucks when sex is uncomfortable for me. It just makes it hard to be very positive about the subject- so we both suffer.

I'll be following these conversations with interest and I will hope and wait for an opportunity that sounds right to speak to dh.

Thansk for every one's honesty and willingness to share.

Jessica

[A&A]

Is your son intact, Aira?

I'm comforted by the fact that at least we broke the cycle of generational violence. My dh wasn't one of those men who had to inflict untold pain upon his newborn just to prove his own manhood (like my brother ). My dh is a different kind of man--one who will actually stand up for his son. Hopefully you're dh is similar and that can be a healing point for your marriage.

[aira]

A&A, absolutely!! Keeping DS intact is what he says is the only way he can even begin to heal from his circ in the slightest. I'm certain he didn't think about it either way until I told him it wasn't going to happen to DS. He just said, "OK, why not?" When I gave him the facts he never wavered either.

I remember feeling a tremendous responsibility when I told him about what happens in circ, that he'd realize that's what happened to him. I knew that it would be the first time he was made aware of his own history, and I made sure to be open to any feelings he might have about it. (Except the possibility of circing DS - that was out if the question.) But he seems to be processing it all very privately. We do talk about it sometimes, but I can tell it's not something he can speak freely about just yet.

I said in a PP that it all weighs heavily on his self-esteem. It really does. I don't have the slightest clue how to make it better. And I know that it *is* hard for him to that trust will take care of him at all. Hell, who can blame him?

[Frankly Speaking]

I just happened to run across this while I was researching another issue and thought of this thread:

http://www.cirp.org/library/general/hughes/



Frank