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changed a circ diaper today - Page 2

post #21 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJsmomma
1. How does this make you lose friends?

2. Why does it make you not want to hold the innocent baby?
Thank you
It makes me lose friends when I have presented them with all the info and they still circ. They would then know that there is no reason to do it, but they still do. I cannot be friends with someone that would do that to a child when they know there is no reason to.

And

That's just a way of showing your hurt and pain you feel for the baby. It's just a way of coping. If you're not holding the baby you don't have to think how he went through something so awful, you don't have to want to send him thoughts that tell him you're so sorry for him. At least that's why I do it. It's not something I do by choice, it's something I do subconsiously (sp?) without realizing I'm doing it.
post #22 of 50
BTW, Welcome to MDC and I hope you learn a lot from this board and use what you learn.
post #23 of 50
Thanks I'm only new to this board I've been at MDC for 2 yrs (I think)

I do know what you're saying about presenting the info and how it's not necessary--I've done with the same with vaxxes and it makes me very sad when I know they do it anyway, but I still don't understand cutting off friendships. I have friends of all religions/political persuasions/totally non Ap or natural parents.

I think sometimes those of us who parent this way have to get ourselves a little more out there so we have a chance to share the info --keep sharing the info--show good representations of our lifestyle and ideas. Show how wonderful our children are
For example in our case--I wouldn't have minded having someone who didn't circ to talk to when I was pg. I wasn't leaning in the least toward more natural parenting--the vax issue just smacked me upside the head kwim? Sometimes, just having a person who appears to be "normal" who has a different viewpoint and is willing to share it can make a BIG difference.
post #24 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJsmomma
I read this thread yesterday and wanted to say something and did not--however, it bothered me all day so I want to understand.

1. How does this make you lose friends?
I hope this will help explain -- the best, closest comparison we can currently make for little girls to what the consequences are for little boys of routine and ritual prepucectomy is:

the amputation of their clitoral hoods,

the amputation of their inner labia,

the stripping out of an approximately inch-wide circumferential ring of their frontmost inner vaginal skin, and

the clamping together of the two resulting raw edges of tissue with thousands of pounds of pressure so that they randomly 'seal' to each other.

I know I would have a very hard time associating with people who had that done to their infant daughter, and particularly so if I had previously showed them how and why it was wrong, and they had done it anyways, and still didn't regret it. And the same thing goes for those who had it done to their infant son, etc.

For some of us this is simply monstrous child abuse and completely, totally, and utterly unacceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJsmomma
2. Why does it make you not want to hold the innocent baby?
In my case it would not be not wanting to hold the baby so much as not wanting to give the parents any kind of further help or assistance in their lives whatsoever. To me that would effectively be condoning their abuse of their child, and also completely, totally, and utterly unacceptable. And it's kind of hard to be sociable with people for whom you refuse to do anything.
post #25 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJsmomma
Thanks I'm only new to this board I've been at MDC for 2 yrs (I think)

I do know what you're saying about presenting the info and how it's not necessary--I've done with the same with vaxxes and it makes me very sad when I know they do it anyway, but I still don't understand cutting off friendships. I have friends of all religions/political persuasions/totally non Ap or natural parents.

I think sometimes those of us who parent this way have to get ourselves a little more out there so we have a chance to share the info --keep sharing the info--show good representations of our lifestyle and ideas. Show how wonderful our children are
For example in our case--I wouldn't have minded having someone who didn't circ to talk to when I was pg. I wasn't leaning in the least toward more natural parenting--the vax issue just smacked me upside the head kwim? Sometimes, just having a person who appears to be "normal" who has a different viewpoint and is willing to share it can make a BIG difference.
The difference between vaxing and circing though is you are preforming plastic surgery without consent on a minor without pain relief with circing, you're not with vaxing. I can not be friends with someone who knew there was no reason to circ and it caused harm in the short and long term, who knew of the sexual pleasure it took away, who knew the life long horrible effects of it, and still did it just because "they like it like that". There is no way I could ever be friends with someone who would do that. I would never befriend someone who abused their children and circing is abuse, plain and simple. My life is not long enough to waste it on people who I have a hard time being around because they do things to their children I could never dream of doing.
Sorry if that sounds harsh.
post #26 of 50
As with Kathryn, for me it's not the parents who didn't know any better, but the ones who did and circ anyway despite being educated about it that make me so : I want to cut off all contact. Sadly although we tried really hard to save my nephew (born at 35 weeks, 5 pounds, circed anyway at day 4!!!) my BIL and SIL circed for no better reason than to look like daddy.

I would feel the same way if I were friends with someone who wanted to circumcise her dd to look like Mommy, say if she were from an African culture where female circ is the norm.

Or about someone who beat her child. In my mind, it's all child abuse. Yes, sometimes parents just don't know any better or know another way, because that's what they were raised with and the frickin' doctors don't fulfill their professional responsibility to tell them that circ is not only unnecessary but very harmful. But when they DO learn and go ahead with the child abuse anyway....well.

About not holding the child....I can understand that too. It's not necessarily logical or rational, but having tried so hard to protect my nephew from his parents' willful intent to do him harm, I didn't want to hold him because I felt I had failed him. I couldn't find the right words or the right way to show his parents what a precious treasure they were bringing in the world, a baby who deserved only loving touches, not painful torture, in his first days of life. I felt, and feel, guilty, and therefore detached, from my nephew.

Circumcision hurts all of us that way. It damages relationships and attachments as well as boys' bodies.

ETA: cross-posted w/Kathryn and Acksiom! Total coincidence.
post #27 of 50
New to this forum. Hi all!

I agree that circ is child abuse. I am the proud mother of 2 boys (intact) from a long line of intact men. My partner is not intact but it was important for him to not subject his own children to horrors of circ.

I too would have a hard time maintaining a friendship or even being civil to someone who was informed and still chose to circ their boys. On the other hand, if they didn't know and were pressured (as some docs do) then I wouldn't be as judgemental. I would still try to educate them for their potential future children.
post #28 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by feebeeglee

thank you! i sent it off to her. i'll let you know if it helps at all....
post #29 of 50
i just wanted to say hi all too...i'm new to this forum...

it makes me feel so much for those here who are clearly heartfelt about it too... ..dont know if i can stay around though at the moment...just makes me ...

as with the whole birth crazyness...i just find it totally AMAZING....that someone like me can educate themsalves...and understand...and im not even a collage grad...and a SMART DR who is ment to be interested in their field of work...can carry on doing ignorant things everyday! what on earth is going on...is there a place here at mothering for people who just find it alll absolutly rediculas...too outragously stupid to really be still going on as we speak?...sorry..i just dont get it!
post #30 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky

About not holding the child....I can understand that too. It's not necessarily logical or rational, but having tried so hard to protect my nephew from his parents' willful intent to do him harm, I didn't want to hold him because I felt I had failed him. I couldn't find the right words or the right way to show his parents what a precious treasure they were bringing in the world, a baby who deserved only loving touches, not painful torture, in his first days of life. I felt, and feel, guilty, and therefore detached, from my nephew.
:



It's genital mutilation. People who didn't know better, well, they didn't know better and I can't hold that against them. But, my brother for instance, should have known better because I gave him a ton of information. He just didn't want to listen. So, if he didn't listen to me about the most important thing I EVER needed to tell him, well, what does that say about our relationship? Not much.
post #31 of 50
I just wanted to insert something here. My son was circ'ed for religious reasons. We may circ if we have another boy - I am not sure (please do not flame me). For the first 3 days it was a little weepy and red, but has looked absolutely fine since then. I was grateful that we had him circ'ed as we discovered his hypospadias quite a bit sooner and were able to have it repaired at 18 months instead of waiting til he was older. He was given a lidocaine shot, sugar water and nursed immediately afterward. He was also given Tylenol every 4 hrs for 3 days.

It seems like mamas on this board exagerrate how terrible circing looks and all the problems associated with it. For someone like me, who is open to information about non-circ'ing, this makes me shut those people out. When all I hear is how they have a wound forever and it's sticky and horrible and causes the child pain for years, I stop listening. My dh is circ'ed and has never had a problem. We have great sex . My son is circ'ed and has had no problems. Hyperboles tend to make people tune out.

I know you all mean well, but I think the message gets blurred. Not holding a circ'ed baby seems really strange to me. Other parents make different choices than you sometimes and it seems a *bit* controlling to me to say that you could not be friends with someone who circ'ed their child even when you gave them information. I give information to people about breastfeeding all the time and many of them still use formula. They are still my friends.
post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfamilygal
For the first 3 days it was a little weepy and red, but has looked absolutely fine since then.
Yes, it looks alright, but you don't know how being circed is going to effect him as an adult. You aren't going to know how much the loss of skin is going to effect his sex life. Just because it looks fine doens't mean it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfamilygal
I was grateful that we had him circ'ed as we discovered his hypospadias quite a bit sooner and were able to have it repaired at 18 months instead of waiting til he was older. He was given a lidocaine shot, sugar water and nursed immediately afterward. He was also given Tylenol every 4 hrs for 3 days.
Don't doctors like waiting on circing children with hypospadias because they use the foreskin to help with the surgery? I'm glad you at least gave your son some pain relief since he had major cosmetic surgery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfamilygal
It seems like mamas on this board exagerrate how terrible circing looks and all the problems associated with it. For someone like me, who is open to information about non-circ'ing, this makes me shut those people out. When all I hear is how they have a wound forever and it's sticky and horrible and causes the child pain for years, I stop listening. My dh is circ'ed and has never had a problem. We have great sex . My son is circ'ed and has had no problems.
I don't exagerrate anything and no one else on here does (that I've noticed). Just because you, your husband, and your child have not had any problems yet doens't mean you won't. I have low vaginal discharge anyway and combined with the fact that my husband isn't intact makes for horribly painful sex. Using lubrication is very common in the US and it has mostly to do with the fact that the cut penis draws womens natural lubrication out of the vagina during sex making it dry and prone to abraision (sp?) and tearing. Everytime my husband and I have sex I get rubbed raw. That isn't supposed to happen and it wouldn't if he were intact.
You say your husband is happy, but just think of how much more he would enjoy sex and how much more you would enjoy sex if it was the way nature intended it?
This analogy has been used many times, but I'll use it again:
If you were born seeing only in black and white you wouldn't mind it, in fact you'd say it's great! You love seeing the world and it's so much fun. You can't imagine why anyone would be anyother way, I mean, you're fine. Well, one day you wake up and you see the world in color. You see the intense red, the beautiful blue sky, the pink cheeks on a baby, the tan legs of women on the beach, etc.. Would you still think just black and white was ok?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfamilygal
I know you all mean well, but I think the message gets blurred. Not holding a circ'ed baby seems really strange to me. Other parents make different choices than you sometimes and it seems a *bit* controlling to me to say that you could not be friends with someone who circ'ed their child even when you gave them information. I give information to people about breastfeeding all the time and many of them still use formula. They are still my friends.
But our point is, is that cirumcision should NOT be your choice. It is NOT your body, therefore you should not be able to make a decision like that. This is not a surgery to benefit the human body. It takes away from it. In many ways. To preform surgery on a human being without consent is a crime. Why is this any different? There are no health benefits to it, why are we still doing it? I can not and will not befriend people who choose to preform cosmetic surgery on their child without consent when they know that it does nothing but cause problems. Anybody who does that IMO is an arrogent jerk and does not deserve to have me as a friend.
post #33 of 50
pfamilygal - we feel the same way about choosing to cut a boy as we do choosing to cut a girl. But most of us (thank God!) don't live in countries where girl cutting is common.

And by 'choosing', I mean someone who refuses to educate themselves after they are given information about circumcision. Someone who does it because they can, basically.

We aren't doing it to punish them, or to punish their child. At least I'm not. I do it because if I associate with them I am condoning their action. In my way, I am complicit in it, if I were to associate with them.

Once they have the opportunity to learn that the foreskin of their son is not disposable yet they cut it off anyway, well. Would this be an issue if it was any other part of the child?

I would not want anything to do with them if they cut off the child's ears, or the nostrils, or the little toes. The difference is no Western cultures do those things, so pretty much anyone who did it would be jailed for assault, and nobody would think it odd if we didn't want our kids to play with the lady who goes to jail after every child of hers is born because she persists in cutting off their nostrils and ears.

I like the entire healthy child to be left intact - either sex - any body parts.
post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by feebeeglee
pfamilygal - we feel the same way about choosing to cut a boy as we do choosing to cut a girl. But most of us (thank God!) don't live in countries where girl cutting is common.

And by 'choosing', I mean someone who refuses to educate themselves after they are given information about circumcision. Someone who does it because they can, basically.

We aren't doing it to punish them, or to punish their child. At least I'm not. I do it because if I associate with them I am condoning their action. In my way, I am complicit in it, if I were to associate with them.

Once they have the opportunity to learn that the foreskin of their son is not disposable yet they cut it off anyway, well. Would this be an issue if it was any other part of the child?

I would not want anything to do with them if they cut off the child's ears, or the nostrils, or the little toes. The difference is no Western cultures do those things, so pretty much anyone who did it would be jailed for assault, and nobody would think it odd if we didn't want our kids to play with the lady who goes to jail after every child of hers is born because she persists in cutting off their nostrils and ears.

I like the entire healthy child to be left intact - either sex - any body parts.
: said much better than I did.
post #35 of 50
pfamilygal,
This is the case AGAINST circumcision board. (NOT the "circumcision debate" board.) Please keep that in mind. Thanks.
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfamilygal
Hyperboles tend to make people tune out.
And trivializing people's real problems makes them angry too. I hope you don't mean to do that. But just because you're having great sex doesn't mean that circing doesn't cause lifelong sexual problems. Severe ones. And if you're trying to say it ain't so, you're trivializing a real problem of DH's and mine.

Not to mention the problems of countless boys and men who literally bear the scars.

About the questions at hand, my answers would be:

1. Really hard to keep a relationship with child abusers who are aware of what they're doing.

2. I couldn't resist holding a baby - especially one who had been tortured. But that's my way. I would hope to at least be one person who's energy allowed for them to express their pain and experience trust. Maybe I'm just delusional.


I also wanted to add to the frey about the vax comparison... (though I'm not gonna dig up any quotes from above) Vaxes also cause lifelong damage and severe complications. I was damaged without my consent. So was DH, though he got vaxed and circ'ed. But you can't say that it's different b/c circ causes lifelong damage, and vaxes don't. That's just not true.

Kathryn, you're absolutely right that most vaxes are done truely b/c the parents think it's "healthy". The fear-mongering about vaxes has to date not been easily countered. (I personally think that the med industry puts more resources into squelching anti-vaxers because there is more long-term profit to be lost...) But nevertheless intactivism seems to be working at a faster rate. That translates to me that those who circ have no excuse once they are presented with the facts. Deciding not to vax is a little harder, in that the facts are SSOOO convoluted and the propaganda machine has taken over the entire world. Plus, you WILL be threatened, harrassed, ostersized, and constantly accused of child endangerment if you dare think differently than they.

Deciding not to circ, by comparison, doesn't seem so hard to me, once you know what it means. Even the AAP doesn't recommend it anymore.
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfamilygal
I just wanted to insert something here. My son was circ'ed for religious reasons. We may circ if we have another boy - I am not sure (please do not flame me). For the first 3 days it was a little weepy and red, but has looked absolutely fine since then. I was grateful that we had him circ'ed as we discovered his hypospadias quite a bit sooner and were able to have it repaired at 18 months instead of waiting til he was older. He was given a lidocaine shot, sugar water and nursed immediately afterward. He was also given Tylenol every 4 hrs for 3 days.

It seems like mamas on this board exagerrate how terrible circing looks and all the problems associated with it. For someone like me, who is open to information about non-circ'ing, this makes me shut those people out. When all I hear is how they have a wound forever and it's sticky and horrible and causes the child pain for years, I stop listening. My dh is circ'ed and has never had a problem. We have great sex . My son is circ'ed and has had no problems. Hyperboles tend to make people tune out.

I know you all mean well, but I think the message gets blurred. Not holding a circ'ed baby seems really strange to me. Other parents make different choices than you sometimes and it seems a *bit* controlling to me to say that you could not be friends with someone who circ'ed their child even when you gave them information. I give information to people about breastfeeding all the time and many of them still use formula. They are still my friends.

Just a few comments/questions

1)Aren't religious circs usually done by a mohel or some other type of ritual circumciser?

2)If you don't want to be flamed for being pro-circ then "The Case Against Circumcision" probably is not the right forum for you to be posting pro-circumcision messages.

3)The whole point of this side of the "debate" is that there is no need for it to ever look weepy and red. Not for three days, not ever. And "looking absolutely fine" is a matter of opinion. He is still scarred.

4)Once the MD noticed he had hypospadias, the operation should have been stopped. Hypospadias is a contraindication for circumcision.

5)As far as how people talk on this board. This is the "Case Against Circumcision" board. We are against circumcision and as such see it in a negative light. Compared to a normal, unscarred, intact penis, yes I do think a circumcised one looks terrible, especially in one so young, especially since there is no reason for it to look that way in the first place.

6) As far as you shutting people out, that is your choice. The truth is sometimes not very nice to hear, but it doesn't make it any less true.

7) My dh and I have great sex too and he is circed. I did have one lover years ago that had a curvature in his penis due to an uneven and very tight circumcision. Sex was very uncomfortable for me to the point where intercourse was very infrequent. Just because one person has no problems doesn't mean noone has any. Some are not apparent until maturity, when the penis reaches its full size.

8)Losing friendships over circumcision I think has a deeper reason than just the circumcision. For me, it is the morals and ethics of a person who would choose to put a child through something like a circumcision when they know that there is no valid reason for them to do so. The importance of "looking like Daddy" should not overshadow the health and well being (not to mention the rights and freedoms) of their child.

I hope that explains for you a different POV.

Take care,
Tara
post #38 of 50
Very well said Tara! Exactly what I wanted to say.
post #39 of 50
I didn't say I was adamantly pro-circ. I am looking for information. But I want accurate information and often here it seems to me that it is claimed that most men have problems with sex, etc, after circ'ing. I would like to see hard data about how common this is.

Some religious people circ with a mohel - we chose to circ in the hospital. It seemed safer to me and it meant my son could have pain relief. They did not discover his hypospadias during the circ. He had a depression at the tip of his penis that appeared to be a urethra. It was at his one year checkup, with a new pedi, that we discovered the hypospadias. He said, "so when are we fixing this?" I said, "fixing what?!!" What I meant about the circ was that if he hadn't been retracted at that point (if he were intact) we wouldn't have seen the hypospadias. His urethra was at the bottom of the glans on the underneath side of his penis. When he got an erection it was very crooked, but he was my first. I didn't know how it was supposed to look. My pedi is actively anti-circ and when I asked him if the crookedness could be caused by a bad circ he said "no."

They moved his urethra to the tip of his glans during the surgery. Then they cut around the bottom of the glans and pulled the skin back. The urologist said they gave him some sort of shot to stimulate an erection and then had to cut some muscles and stitch to straighten it out before tacking the skin back up. He had a catheter for a few days and we kept him pretty dopey with the Lortab elixer. I'm just glad we could have it done at such a young age. I know it gets worse the older the child is.

I know this is an anti-circ board. I was just saying that when you say mean things about people who choose circumcision (stone hearts, etc) you don't do much to change people's minds. Most people won't go to a place that seems unfriendly.
post #40 of 50
I want to add here that we are, by and large, very open. When it gets to a point where we have to actively defend our position that it is not a good idea to cut off healthy parts of little children simply because an adult wants to cut them off - then we get a little touchy.
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