SAHM a "choice?" - Page 5

[AngelBee]

I don't think Greaseball is trying to offend anyone. She is just very passionate about being a SAHM. It is hard for her to understand why anyone would not say home with their kids. (Greaseball....LMK if I am off)

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

Has anyone read the Mommy Myth? I highly recommend it.

Is it about stuff like this?

I feel bad that their is such a division between mamas. But I guess there always will be. Same results....different topic. KWIM?

[chalupamom]

I'm not at all sure I would support an entitlement program for SAHMs. For one thing, I would not welcome government oversight into how I run my home and family life. We see over and over all the intrusion people suffer to obtain food stamps, WIC and other aid - anxiety over CPS, vax, extended nursing and other issues so many of us feel strongly about - that I can't imagine what we'd have to trade in order to get a bit of cash in exchange for having made the choice to make our families the center of our industry (especially since WIC and food stamps would be MINOR compared to the amounts of cash we're talking about here). Moreover, there are an awful lot of craptastic moms out there - should they get paid as much as I (I am a fab mom)? Should I get more because I gave up more income? What about if I promise to serve only organic, local food? No, wait, that's not good for GDP...what if I promise only to serve Big Food frozen meals?

Does the act of foregoing paid employment in itself enough for someone to cut me a check for, say, $800 a month (wait, that's so last season, what I meant was direct deposit the $800)? No questions asked?

I'm planning on homeschooling and one of the things in the HS "community" (such as it is) no matter the variety of HS family is that HSers consistently resist or turn down gov't efforts to "help" with materials, resources, space, etc. on the grounds that it could open a door to increased governmental control of our childrens' educations. "Mom's Pay" to me would be the same - accepting an invitation to greater control of our family lives.

(And...not to mention: can you imagine if the gov't finally saw the light and decided to issue $$ to at-home, primary caregiving parents? Prices would rise instantly across the board for consumer goods - on the grounds that millions of people now have access to "free" money. I doubt most families would see much, if any, macro-benefit. Google "Kodak Bausch Lomb Bonus Time" for more on this effect.)

Now...you could talk me into Social Security credits for time spent being primary caregivers - maybe granted at retirement as an average of the prevailing every year or maybe the average of your own contributions over the time you did have paid employment. Not sure how we could work that out, but I think it's worth discussing.

[HollyBearsMom]

have felt sick and sad when I've read some of the threads in the WOHM forum, so I don't go there anymore. I have no reason to be reading those threads. Why would anyone be here if they were not SAHMs or interested in being SAHMs? I thought this was supposed to be "our" place where we could discuss issues that SAHMs relate to.

How is this issue just a SAHM issue?? I see it more of a parenting one or even bigger a societal issue.

Womens have so many more choices today then they 25-50-100 years ago. Staying home, Working from home, Working out of the home, Having or not having children are all choices.

BTW: I understood that one of the reason why it so long to get this forum was just for the reason you stated. Cynthia and Peggy both expressed many times that a SAHM forum would not be "your place" or a safe haven where SAHM's could freely bash other moms choices. My undestanding was their intial hesitation was that SAHM's moms would think that having their own forum gave some protection and they would use the forum as platform of negativity. Guess they were right.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by HollyBearsMom

BTW: I understood that one of the reason why it so long to get this forum was just for the reason you stated. Cynthia and Peggy both expressed many times that a SAHM forum would not be "your place" or a safe haven where SAHM's could freely bash other moms choices. My undestanding was their intial hesitation was that SAHM's moms would think that having their own forum gave some protection and they would use the forum as platform of negativity. Guess they were right.

I think to use one thread as a means of condemming the entire forum is wrong.

[allgirls]

So where do you fit those of us who have done both? In my first marriage I was a WOHM...my first daughter was 3mos old when I went back to work...I had to...my husband was laid off...that was 15 years ago...I was off 6 mos when my next daughter came along. I had 2 daycare providers over the course of the time I worked until they got old enough they were in school..I was home when they got home or their dad was.

I had to work...just to keep the bare minimum over their heads...their father was an alcoholic who was on and off work constantly...my income was the reliable source in our home. There was no choice there that I could see but even if there had been I am not sure I wouldn't still have worked...what I learned then was invaluable to me...my girls would be really proud to come to my office and talked about being a "manager" when they grew up. I have asked them if they wished I had been home with them when they were little and they said no...they loved Mary(their daycare provider), she was a part of the family for many years. I was lucky that way. So they don't feel they missed out on anything but I do...I am the one who feels like she missed out.

When my second husband and I had Sophia we decided he would work and I would stay home. He drives a truck and is gone for up to 2 weeks at a time...so in order to have a SAHM they have a dad who is gone a lot. This is tough on me and the kids...I had always been self sufficient financially...very independent and very proud of being that way..the shift to seeing our finances as ours and not his was difficult for me...but we adjusted and I love being home with my daughter and will stay home with my next child as well...for at least the first 2 years.

See we can get by on my husband's income(and we have no luxeries trust me)but there will be 4 kids needing to go to college(I hope)...and we will have to pay for it. We can't afford that. So when my new baby is 2 I plan on going back to university...then I will go back to work after I get my degree...

I am also in Canada and if this daycare plan comes into affect I will certainly use it when I go back to college. Though I won't use it until my kids are off to a good start.

It's a choice, it's a balance...it may feel like there was no decision for you because you always knew what you would do...but somewhere along the line you made that choice...maybe it was when you were 2 playing dolly's and you don't remember but it was a choice.

I see lots of WOHM who do awesome jobs with their children...I have a cousin who has worked the entire lives of her children and I can't say I have ever seen a better mother SAHM or WOHM.

The battle between WOHM and SAHM really disturbs me. I have enough guilt over mistakes I have made other than woh, I don't have room for any more.

I do wish people were just a wee bit kinder to each other when it comes to this subject.

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

I don't think Greaseball is trying to offend anyone. She is just very passionate about being a SAHM. It is hard for her to understand why anyone would not say home with their kids. (Greaseball....LMK if I am off)

I think it's only hard to understand if you are unable or unwilling to imagine yourself in the shoes of another person, whose needs may be different than your own; if you are unable or unwilling to acknowledge that children may fare equally well in a variety of care-giving situations; if you are unable or unwilling to acknowledge, when talking about how things have “historically” been done, that historical precedent doesn’t always = the best course of action, that history has been different in different cultures and classes, and that there is little historical precedent for women to be taking care of children alone and isolated in their homes.

Although I hear some passion here for children and what they perceive to be their best interests, I also see a whole heck of a lot of self-righteousness, judgment of the choices of fellow MDCers, rigid and sexist thinking (I’d love for some of the posters here to go back to their posts and apply their “rules” to male instead of just to female parents).

This thread may not be indicative of the entire forum, but it sure is revelatory. I thought the purpose of this forum was for SAHPs to share advice and feedback about the joys and challenges of staying at home. But so much of this thread has been devoted to bashing the choices of other loving parents, and reinforcing sexist stereotypes. Exactly what the PTB feared would happen/

For those of you who were so horrified/appalled/offended by what you read on the working mothers forum, I’m curious—was it that you were bothered by how the women there were parenting their own children, or was it by the language they used to describe parents who had made other choices?

I have yet to see bashing of SAHPs in that forum the way I have seen WOHMs (NOT, I will note, WOHDs, who received no such admonition to fulfill their responsibility by staying at home and “raising their children”) bashed here. Perhaps that happens but I haven’t had the misfortune of seeing it.

I have no problem with people raising their children in a loving way, as I personally believe both SAHPs and WOHPs can do. But does that really need to be accompanied by such vitriol against others? What a failure of compassion and imagination!

As for the idea that those who don't like the rhetoric here should just buzz off, that's really unfair. Any time people are being unfairly maligned in this community, others have the right--if not the responsibility--to cry foul.

[weetzie]

[nycapmom]

What bothers me most about some of the posts on this thread is the insinuation (or in some cases, statement) that daycare - even a top notch one - comes close to a full time mother. It just is not so except under extreme circumstances, obviously- like severe abuse. It reminds me of formula feeders who claim formula is equal to breastmilk, or say "I was formula fed and turned out fine" Everyone will make their choices for whatever reason. No need to defend yourself but PLEASE do not claim that all choices are equal.

[Amys1st]

Originally Posted by HollyBearsMom

BTW: I understood that one of the reason why it so long to get this forum was just for the reason you stated. Cynthia and Peggy both expressed many times that a SAHM forum would not be "your place" or a safe haven where SAHM's could freely bash other moms choices. My undestanding was their intial hesitation was that SAHM's moms would think that having their own forum gave some protection and they would use the forum as platform of negativity. Guess they were right.

I would hate to think so since I begged both of them for so long for this forum. I too thought it would be a place to support other SAH's as myself but I guess that was wishful thinking on my part as well.

[HollyBearsMom]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

I think to use one thread as a means of condemming the entire forum is wrong.

I was not saying that this one thread was indicative of the forum but it was the attitude and comment of the poster who said

Why would anyone be here if they were not SAHMs or interested in being SAHMs? I thought this was supposed to be "our" place where we could discuss issues that SAHMs relate to.....I realize any MDC member can post anywhere, but I figured that in the SAHM forum I wouldn't have to worry about offending the WOHMs.

She was not talking about this thread, she was talking about the forum. Her statement is indicative that she feels that it is OK to say what she wants about WOHM's because this is a SAHM forum. She doesn't think she has to "worry" about WOHM's feelings. This is EXACTLY what I understood the powers that be wanted to avoid- a platform for the mommy wars.

This is a PUBLIC message board and therefore all forums are open to all people. Even people who don't agree with everything you say. Some are less welcome here than others but it is still a public board. Many people are also here to learn. There are FF's by choice who go on to breast feed, circ'ers who go on to not circ. Moms who vaccinate who later choose to delay. Spankers who go own to be GD advocaters. SAHM's who go on to to be WAHM or WOHM's and vice versa. We can all benefit form looking and learning form both sides with love and support not anger and hate.

Lastly- look at what this next comment says about WOHM's.

What bothers me most about some of the posts on this thread is the insinuation (or in some cases, statement) that daycare - even a top notch one - comes close to a full time mother. It just is not so except under extreme circumstances, obviously- like severe abuse.

Imagine how a WOHM would feel reading this. It is implying that only children who are abused should be in daycare. Remind me tell my pediatrician next time she saves the life of an infant. Or to tell the SAHD we see at the playground that he is doesn't even come close to providing the care his wife could....

[veggie4ever]

Sahm

I totally agree with lillylove's post. If some people think it is judgemental too bad.
Having your kids in daycare everyday is having someone else raise your kids.

[weetzie]

Originally Posted by nycapmom

What bothers me most about some of the posts on this thread is the insinuation (or in some cases, statement) that daycare - even a top notch one - comes close to a full time mother. It just is not so except under extreme circumstances, obviously- like severe abuse. It reminds me of formula feeders who claim formula is equal to breastmilk, or say "I was formula fed and turned out fine" Everyone will make their choices for whatever reason. No need to defend yourself but PLEASE do not claim that all choices are equal.

Excuse me? Did I read that right? It is only ok for abusive moms to use daycare? So a SAHD is useless? And women should be home, preferably barefoot and pregnant? Or at least, certainly not pursuing outside interests. Because that would be wrong.

I can't stand this attitude. Like others have said, this was the fear in opening a SAHM forum, and I am so incredibly disappointed to read this.

Where is the fact in this statement? Where is your science? Just because you don't think that it is equal doesn't make it so.

[Yooper]

Um........daycares do not raise kids. I am a sahm. I think it is the right decision for MY family but it is crazy to assume it is always right as several other pps have mentioned. This is exactly why I avoid this forum. These attitudes hurt me. I might be a sahm now but frankly it is not a dream come true. I miss working. I miss interacting with adults. I miss having a paycheck and feeling like I have invested monetarily to my family. I miss the security of having not checked out of the workforce being at the mercy of future employers should I ever need a job (like if I got divorced or dh got disabled). If we are going to have governement policies, they should focus on both types of families and families should be able to choose. I agree with that. I would like to see social security credits for my time at home. I would like to see better standards and higher pay for daycare workers if I ever choose that route. To say that a mother's place is at home and only at home is oppressive, discriminatory, old fashioned, anti-feminist, and plain not right. I feel dd might be better off if I went to work and someone that actually enjoys spending their day playing with children were to be with her. But I do not have a crystal ball....maybe not. Maybe she is better off with me, a person that likes to be an adult and spends much of her day interacting in the adult world. The fact is, I do not know. No one does. I am very glad I have a choice even if I am not sure I am making the right one. I am lucky. Dh makes enough for me to decide what I want. I made enough that dh could have stayed home. We weighed our options...including both of us working and this is how it panned out. But if things were justa bit different, I would be a wohm and dh would be a wohd and I would be posting in a different forum. To assume everyone can our should make a certain decision is very niave and self centered.

[Greaseball]

So the next time you take up arms in the Mommy Wars be a dear try and refrain from the whining, won't you?

Why, because I chose this so I just need to take what it brings? Not a chance...I will whine about everything I don't like. Got news for you - if I was a WOHM I would still find something to whine about. I'm just a whiner! :

And yes, I believe maternal care is better for my children than any other kind of care and I didn't think I had to hide that attitude here!

[weetzie]

Originally Posted by Greaseball

And yes, I believe maternal care is better for my children than any other kind of care and I didn't think I had to hide that attitude here!

You don't. THat is a fine attitude to have. But don't tell me what is better for MY children. Can you see that distinction?

[Greaseball]

I guess if I thought people saw other care arrangements as equal to full-time parental care, they would not be drawn to this forum. I guess that was wrong.

[nycapmom]

Originally Posted by Greaseball

I guess if I thought people saw other care arrangements as equal to full-time parental care, they would not be drawn to this forum. I guess that was wrong.

[the_lissa]

I am in this forum to talk about the challenges, rewards, and other things about being a SAHM, not to be self righteous or judge other mothers.

[chalupamom]

Originally Posted by Greaseball

I guess if I thought people saw other care arrangements as equal to full-time parental care, they would not be drawn to this forum. I guess that was wrong.

Good time to throw in "parental" in the care portion of your statement now that we've established that it's not really fair or appropriate to focus ire on working moms and not working dads who, presumably, are also not "raising their children" by your definition.

Anyway, I would think that - aside from this being a public forum - anyone who is a SAHM would "be drawn to this forum". I thought the price of admission was just being a SAHM, not a SAHM who passed certain litmus tests in terms of decisions, views, choices and suitability for the job. (ETA: Litmus tests, by the way, apparently established in advance by just a small portion of the membership.)