How Do I Get Out Of This Vicious Cycle?

[gilnikche]

I am so tired of being sick and tired.

I used to be so proud of my family. Now I am embarassed to take them out in public.

My 10 year old daughter has melt downs so many times a day that I have stopped keeping track.

My 7 year old son is constantly hitting his siblings or climbing/walking on furniture.

My 5 year old daughter (who is the mellow one) now shrieks at the slightest thing.

My 20 month old son is a sweet little guy, but all the chaos around him is effecting him too.


Bedtime is hell. I have tried everything that I can think of to have a smooth bedtime routine. No matter what I do; they keep running around like maniacs.

I have tried early bedtimes and later ones.
...snacks before bed.
...soothing baths.
...a nice massage.
...waking up earlier.
...more physical activity.


I have even resorted to spanking. Guess what? It did not help one bit!

I truly believe my kids are exhibiting all the signs of sleep deprivation. So am I. But I have been unable to break this cycle.


I feel like beating my head against a wall...

[monkaha]

No advice. Just s

[captain optimism]

I have no advice either, at least none based on BTDT.

Let's brainstorm a bit. I have the following ideas to throw out for you:

1. Enlist the help of your 10 year old in figuring out how she can have fewer meltdowns. When you have one on one time with her and can be relaxed, talk with her about what you can do to help her get more sleep, etc. I bet your 7 year old is also old enough to discuss his behavior with you in a non-punitive, relaxed context.

2. Change their diets? I am sure many suggestions will be forthcoming!

3. Ear plugs?

4. Window shades?

5. ?????

Now that we have the "non-experts throwing out suggestions" model, maybe you will get other responses?

[the sunshine]

Is your partner involved at all? You could each be responsible for two kids.

How long did you try each routine? It takes longer than a few days for it to start working.

Do they feed off of each others wild behavior? Maybe put each child to bed separately--like you put one to bed while your partner plays with the other three, then you put the next to bed etc.

I'm sorry, it sounds so stressful for you!

[Losgann]

melatonin?

Perhaps, if it's bad enough, you might try some melatonin to help them sleep? It really helped our ds with Aspergers to get on a healthy sleep routine and we recently started using it with our dd, almost 5 as she was exhibiting almost all of the same symptoms as your 4! The first night she took it she woke up in the morning- no crying, whining, falling back asleep. She even made her bed all on her own and was totally content walking out the door for school. It made a huge difference in her mood to get enough sleep.

I hope you find something that works for all of you!

[Ravin]

Would it be at all feasible to just let them sleep late in the morning? Once they're caught up on sleep, you can work on moving the bedtime back in small increments until they're going to bed early enough to wake up early as you want them to without being sleep deprived.

Basically, if getting them to bed is a disaster, just let them sleep in instead!

[Losgann]

Originally Posted by Ravin

Would it be at all feasible to just let them sleep late in the morning? Once they're caught up on sleep, you can work on moving the bedtime back in small increments until they're going to bed early enough to wake up early as you want them to without being sleep deprived.

Basically, if getting them to bed is a disaster, just let them sleep in instead!

In my experience this just prolongs everyone's suffering- because the longer they sleep in in the mornings the longer they stay up at night! Just my experience, though!

We just went through that with dd the last 3 weeks or so and there was no end in sight until dh remembered we had melatonin left over.. We give it to her at 8:00 at night and she's asleep by 8:30, ALL night long. Once she's back on a good schedule in a week or so we'll pull the melatonin and let her do it on her own again.

[nikirj]

Just to throw this out there - my kids' sleep cycles are heavily influenced by light levels. If you live at a sufficiently northern/southern latitude for short nights to be a problem (as I do) blackout shades really help. I had this problem as a preteen/teenager as well.

Would bribery work? Tantrum-free days get your 10yo a prize, hitting-free/climbing-free days get the 7yo a prize, shrieking-free days get your 5yo a prize?

[4evermom]

Another vote for letting them sleep in in the morning, if you aren't already. People that are chronically underrested have trouble sleeping soundly. Sleep disturbances like sleep walking and night terrors usually happen earlier in the night, within a few hours of going to bed, for this reason. Once they get caught up on sleep, try guiding them to follow their body cues as to when they need to sleep, instead of having a specific bedtime (especially the older ones, but I do this with my toddler). The 7 and 10 year olds should be able to get themselves to bed with little help, maybe wanting some company. Do you think bedtime has become a power struggle at all? If so, maybe you can announce that you are going to bed and that they should go to bed when they are tired (assuming you don't think they will decide to do anything dangerous). I think it helps if everyone in the house is going to bed, or at least is doing really boring things after a certain time. TV in the evening and energetic play are stimulating, making sleep more difficult. I think much of the problems people have with children and sleep come from outside forces influencing the time that they should sleep. Some parents want the kids sleep schedule to be compatible with their own (understandably!), or the kids have to be up for school at a specific time. I find it frustrating to not be able to sleep when I'm tired so I am sympathetic to those, young and old, with the same problem . Remember, sleep begets sleep. The more well rested you are, the easier it is to sleep so step one is to get your kids better rested by any means possible.

[bec]

I also would say to let them sleep.

In addition to that, I would, for the time being at least eliminate all sugar and all sources of caffeine. I would think hard about eliminating, or at least severely limiting all screen time (TV, computer, video games).

It does sound like a vicious cycle. But I agree with the sleep begets sleep theory. Once they are asleep, let them sleep as long as they want/need. I understand your concern is that they will just stay up really late into the evening then. If they sleep late in the morning, I would plan as much physical activity for that day as possible until the late afternoon. Then, gradually try to bring them to some calmer activities, like reading, crafts, coloring, etc. After dinner, a nice bath, then bed (or whatever bedtime routine you have) at whatever reasonable hour you have decided on. Don't make it into a power struggle.

I also second the idea to enlist your older kids to help. Ask them for their suggestions to the problem. Have a family meeting, with good sleep being the topic. Write down everybody's suggestions, regardless of how ridiculous they sound. Then, go through them and agree on the reasonable ones.

This suggestion is right out of How To Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk. I would highly recommend reading it. It's quick, easy, practical and gentle.


Bec

[Rainbow Brite]

I don't know your situation at all, so this might be completely useless, but in the book "Superimmunity for kids" he mentions something about sleep and a nutritional deficiency, and what foods to increase. I have dd asleep on me, or I'd go look it up. I will try to remember to- if I lose this thread and you want the info just pm me the thread

[wildmonkeys]

You said you used to be so proud of them - are these behaviors new? Has something major changed that has everybody out of sorts (esp. if your mellow child has started shrieking)

It just seems to me that if a whole family of kids suddenly start acting out at once they are responding to something and trying to let you know how distressed they are...has something happened that they need help with?

BJ
Barney & Ben

[Wilhemina]

IME as mama goes the whole family goes. It is patently unfair and a great burden sometimes, but pragmatically it seems to be how our family works. With this in mind, may I suggest you begin your changes with what will hopefully help YOU the most? I love our afternoon breaks (I only have 2, so take this fwiw with re: your family), we get a drink and sit down for a long read aloud time, then spend time alone in separate rooms doing something quiet. It's kind of like a fresh start to the afternoon.

HTH. Good luck and good vibes to you all.

[Wilhemina]

Bumping to see how you are doing.

[Myboysmom]

Don't really have anything to add other than I BTDT and I feel your frustration in my own way!

I feel the same way most of the time. The time change has been HELL!!! My yds is in preK and they are mandated to have a "nap time". Well, he doesn't need a nap but if he lays still and quiet for 20-30 minutes, guess what? YEP! He falls asleep. On the weekends when he does NOT get a nap he goes to sleep just fine. SO, I am hoping when school is out his bedtime will improve.

[gilnikche]

Sorry for the delay in responding. The whole family has been down with a stomach virus the whole week.

To answer a few questions...

1. Enlist the help of your 10 year old in figuring out how she can have fewer meltdowns.

Tried this. Unfortunately; she is the meltdown queen. She usually sets them off. I have to separate her from the others to get a bit of calm.

I bet your 7 year old is also old enough to discuss his behavior with you in a non-punitive, relaxed context.

I do try this. He says "Okay mom." then goes back to bed bouncing, wall climbing and hitting his sister.

2. Change their diets?

Tried cutting back on caffeine and sugar. Also cut out red dye no. 40 & yellow dye no. 5 & 6. No change.

Is your partner involved at all?

Yes, but his method is usually to yell and threaten to spank. Or he goes to bed first.

How long did you try each routine?

I had been trying for weeks on end. I have gotten so disgusted that I go online just to focus on something else and calm down.

Do they feed off of each others wild behavior? Maybe put each child to bed separately

Absolutely! BTDT, they just sneak out again.

Perhaps, if it's bad enough, you might try some melatonin to help them sleep?

I am seriously considering this. Any info on what dosage?

Would it be at all feasible to just let them sleep late in the morning?

They do sleep in. I think that they need to sleep from the crucial hours of 10 PM-2AM. It is common for them to be up past midnight. Tried waking them up a little earlier each AM, then down earlier each PM. Nada. Stayed up just as late.

Just to throw this out there - my kids' sleep cycles are heavily influenced by light levels.

No problem there.

Would bribery work? Tantrum-free days get your 10yo a prize, hitting-free/climbing-free days get the 7yo a prize, shrieking-free days get your 5yo a prize?

Um, this is something I refuse to do. I have tried telling them about the fun thing we are doing the next AM.

I would think hard about eliminating, or at least severely limiting all screen time (TV, computer, video games).

Done that.

If they sleep late in the morning, I would plan as much physical activity for that day as possible until the late afternoon. Then, gradually try to bring them to some calmer activities, like reading, crafts, coloring, etc. After dinner, a nice bath, then bed (or whatever bedtime routine you have) at whatever reasonable hour you have decided on.

Done all this too.

You said you used to be so proud of them - are these behaviors new? Has something major changed that has everybody out of sorts (esp. if your mellow child has started shrieking)

It has increased gradually from "irritating behavior in public" to "running away in the store" or other gut clenching behavior.

may I suggest you begin your changes with what will hopefully help YOU the most? I love our afternoon breaks (I only have 2, so take this fwiw with re: your family), we get a drink and sit down for a long read aloud time, then spend time alone in separate rooms doing something quiet.

I only wish that they would stay in the seperate rooms ! If they are quiet, then they are up to something.

[captain optimism]

Well, it seems like brainstorming is a good tool for you. You got a list of options, and you were able to rule some of them out right away, leaving a few ideas.

Things you ruled out because you tried them already include changing diet, enlisting the help of the older children, eliminating TV/screen time, putting them to bed separately.

ONe thing that violates your basic priniciples is bribing them for good behavior. You also have a strong belief that the most beneficial time to sleep is between 10PM and 2AM. (I have heard this, too.)

You are pretty sure that your children don't need darker rooms.

It sounds like the one idea you are willing to try is the melatonin.

It might also be true that OTHER dietary changes than the ones you have tried might work.

I think there are other ideas out there for you, and I hope that people will throw them out. It's okay if the ideas they do put out to you don't appeal/work for you. I just think that having a lot of people thinking with you and on your side is good, even if the suggestions are wide of the mark.

Did people already suggest:

*homeopathic remedies?
*herbal remedies (valerian or sleepy time tea?)
*just letting the children drop in their tracks? (people always suggest that one to me! I can never do it)
* partner/grandma/friend or auntie puts some or all of them to bed?

[Tanibani]

I only have a sec...

I've heard that kids misbehave because of "unmet needs." ( : I know you are working hard.)

When my son has acted like a bear, it's because I kept putting him off (his need to play with me.)

Have you tried that??? Silly play with each kid? Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen talks about this. I did see some improvement after I tried it. It really blew me away... One day I took both kids to the park and just played on the grass with him (something I had not done in AGES) and he was such a sweetheart that night.

This article (On Tears & Tantrums by Aletha Solter) talks about "the Broken Cookie Phenomenon" where it finally takes 1 thing (like a broken cookie) to set off a huge tantrum (which is simply a big release of pent of stress & frustration).
http://www.awareparenting.com/tantrums.htm

[MamaAllNatural]

This sounds very hard. I'm sorry to hear you're having such a rough time.

For your 10 year old I'm wondering if you've read the explosive child? Is she easily frustrating in most situations and chronically inflexible? I have a child like this and this book was such a big help! I can't recall the authors name right now. : I'll post when I remember.

Originally Posted by gilnikche

Tried cutting back on caffeine and sugar. Also cut out red dye no. 40 & yellow dye no. 5 & 6. No change.

I would say go 100% free of these things for at least a month. My kids don't get any of these things or TV...if they do I notice a *huge* difference. It is worth a try in this situation because something definitely needs to change here.

It has increased gradually from "irritating behavior in public" to "running away in the store" or other gut clenching behavior.

This sounds hard. How are you reacting to the gut clenching behavior? (Not trying to be nosy, just trying to get a feel for what ideas may be left in dealing with this).

It also sounds like you could really use some more support from dh. Is he home in the evenings? Is he willing to re-examine some of his parening methods?

One more question...when teh 5 yo is screetching, is she doing it for fun, like it's just an irritating noise she's gotten into the habit of making or is she doing it when she's upset?

Even though you're feeling really frustrated with them right now do try to sit down and read some stories with them during the day and play with them at the park etc. Even if it's only a slight one, it does make a difference in their behavior later in the day and it helps you feel a little more positive about them.

I think with some further exploring this can definitely start being resolved.

[4evermom]

A camping trip might help get everyone back in rythym again.