no such think as an informed circ'er?

[loving-my-babies]

I was on a mailing list that was started by some newbie AP mamas, and the subject of circumcision came up. I think it was started to see what we all thought about it. Well, I was surprised to see that most of the supposedly AP moms had circ'ed their babies and said they would do it again? (all of them said "I am informed and know both sides" um, WHAT both sides, if there is only ONE side?)

I figured it's because they are new into AP and don't really see the link between circumcision and genital mutilation and how it can't be a gentle, good thing to chop off a penis. OR maybe it is in stuck so strongly in their minds that they don't want to see it any other way?

Anyway, after I did my usual anti-circ talk (which I'm tired of doing because people don't seem to want to open their heads!) and at the end, they didn't change their minds. I am confused. To me, it is so COMMON SENSE not to circumcise, why is it not for some people? how can anyone think it is completely compatible with gentle parenting?

How can you explain to people that there is no such thing as an informed circumciser? (because anyone that is truly informed, unless because of just plain cruelty) will not do it..?? without saying, you're just uninformed and without them thinking that I just want to be right? (because I don't. I think everything has 2 sides of the "coin" and can be debated.... breastfeeding, cosleeping, gentle discipline, etc.. but NOT cutting penises off, never!)

I have been part of many circumcision debates in mainstream boards, and I light the fire everywhere, lol. I have converted a lot of people, but some people just WON'T listen. how do I get THOSE people to listen? how do I encourage them to look inside into their hearts and dig deep to find the place in them that says it is wrong to do this??

[kavamamakava]

I dont really have an answer. But I think people who have chosen to practice AP consider themselves to have chosen the more informed way of doing things. So of course they want to say they are informed in other areas as well...even if they aren't.

[feebeeglee]

It's inflammatory, but you can ask if they'd cut off part of their daughters if it wasn't medically recommended, or other parts of their boys, like their ears.

I'd stress that the AAP says the potential benefits do not outweigh the risks and therefore they do not recommend routine circumcision. In other words, doing it to lower the risk of UTI? Nope, the benefit of a lessened statistical chance of UTI is outweighed by the RISK OF CIRC. Doing it to lessen the chance of penile cancer? Nope, the benefit of not getting cancer in the part of the penis you cut off is outweighed by the RISK OF CIRC. Doing it to lessen the chance that he will get HIV? Nope, the benefit of statistically lowering that risk is outweighed by the RISK OF CIRC.

Therefore the only reason to do it is cosmetic, for 'the look'.

What if they lived in a culture that decided people looked better without nostrils?

Lips?

Or, would they cut off the little girl's labia? Not her clitoris, mind, we won't get into the FGM is worse than MGM blahblahblah. Whatever. How much can they cut off of a child before it's abuse, given that it's not recommended medically?

A little toe?

A finger?

Anything but the foreskin is assault - and mind you it's only been since 1996 that it was criminal to cut off parts of a girl! Legality is no barometer of what's wrong - only a barometer of what's legal.

[feebeeglee]

And if you think it would help - it might make them slam shut their minds but you are the better judge of the tone of the list - http://gleeson.us/gm/genitalmutilation.htm (that's that child genital mutilation page I made the other day - warning it's intense.)

[crunchyconmomma]

ohhhhh...why do you girls all do this to me? i am so insanely fanaticall about all this stuff and i just cannot let these threads alone, despite the fact that i end up nauseous when i inevitably click a link in someone's sig line that shows pix of it. it breaks my heart that this ignorance must persist in the world and that we are the ones who feel we have to champion the cause. and to what seems like no avail b/c no matter how hard we try, countless babies, children and adults are being genitally mutilated.
oh and BTW, i was being facetious with the "why do you do this me" b/c of course it is ME that does this to me, before anyone feels it necessary to point this out!
i need to go hug my intact little blessing and have a moment before i soldier on in the cause......

[mattemma04]

I agree,there is no way you can be *informed* and still think circumcision is OK.
Boys are not born defective.Boys CAN wash their genitals,and in many cases BETTER than girls do! It is an insult upon men that we continue to cut up their genitals generation after generation for any reason.

In the least the parents should be fair and circumcise both sexes.And the mothers should trim themselves up a bit too.After all...it would be easier to clean and yadda,yadda,yadda.

[A&A]

I have found, unfortunately, that people who say, "I know both sides," really DON'T want to know the truth and are trying to politely say that they have chosen to circ.

[girlndocs]

Yup.

What they really mean is "I have my mind made up already, so don't confuse me with the facts."

[guest9969]

We circ'ed my son. We were not crunchy people when he was born and I didn't know people didn't circ. Anyway, I would say, in our case, there was no such thing as informed consent. They just asked, "Do you want him circ'd" right after he was born and we said yes and they did it. I think just about every other medical procedure has more informed consent than this one. Pretty stupid...

[wendy1221]

I know someone who did all the research, didn't really want to do it, but her dh said that all of the anti-circ stuff was exagerated, so they did it.

[jessjgh1]

Hmmm, step back for a moment

Wow, I struggled to make this decision, did a lot of research, battled a lot of stereotypes, and plowed through a ton of contradictory information. I'm lucky to have found a supportive board (I didn't find this board till recently, so it wasn't this board). I'm lucky I persevered through a bunch of annoying and unproductive 'debates'. I'm lucky I was suspicious of half the information I was given.

I can see why a parent who is AP who does some research thinks that they have been informed and thinks they are doing the right thing.

If you can't see this, than you are not looking at this issue from a newcomers eyes. Congratulations, you have waded through the bs and have a better understanding, but take a step back and try to understand where these parents (or parents-to-be) are coming from.

If you can understand where they are getting their (mis)information from, what biases they have, what assumptions they are making, what fears they have, what benefits they think there are... than you can address them.

If you can't see these things, then you are going to probably be dismissive or inflammatory and may have people tune you out before they have a chance to hear something that resonates with them.

Think about how much these parents LOVE their children- what is blinding them is that they are THINKING they are protecting their child. Maybe they are wrong, but 'we' have to try to reach them on areas that we can agree about and be understanding to their concerns. They are scared to make a decision that they think is 'risky' and end up having a problem

It takes a while to be comfortable enough to say, "I will leave my son intact, and if he ends up with a problem, I cAN be comfortable with it because this is natural and sometimes there are problems.'

It took me almost a year to realize that these 'problems' are even less common than I thought and most likely caused by incorrect care or the misdiagnosis from a doctor.

This dialogue needs to be done with respect and care.

JMHO

Jessica

[Piratemomma]

I tend to be controversial on my PG's because of my stance on circ. I've found that most people who SAY they did all the research really mean they
A) Did a little research and decided the only important vote was from the husband, as they are card carrying members of the penis club. SO went ahead and did it. OR
B) Did no research, did it for cosmetic reasons, and dont feel as though you have a right to question the WHYS anyway.

That's only MY experience though....

[Mommiska]

Originally Posted by jessjgh1

If you can understand where they are getting their (mis)information from, what biases they have, what assumptions they are making, what fears they have, what benefits they think there are... than you can address them.

Think about how much these parents LOVE their children- what is blinding them is that they are THINKING they are protecting their child. Maybe they are wrong, but 'we' have to try to reach them on areas that we can agree about and be understanding to their concerns. They are scared to make a decision that they think is 'risky' and end up having a problem

It takes a while to be comfortable enough to say, "I will leave my son intact.

I completely agree with this. I have a friend who circed her son despite all of the information/websites/pleading e-mail I sent her not to do it. In my e-mail, I tried to hit all of the issues I knew she cared about, but I obviously didn't find the right one.

I DO think that she wanted to circ - because in her research (and I do believe she researched it and read all of the anti-circ websites I sent links to), I was the one person she refused to talk to. She just didn't want to hear any of my counter arguments.

Which is intensely frustrating/infuriating/etc.

BUT -

I know she and her dh love their son. I really cannot fathom why you would want to cut off part of your child's body, and I do think they did it because of their own self-esteem/peer pressure issues.

But the thing is - if you have these self-esteem/peer pressure issues, then you ASSume those issues are going to be just as significant for your son - I mean, you have them, and they are overwhelming to you, right?

So - you choose to circ because you assume that the issues that are important to you will also be important to your son. So - because you think that circ is the right decision, you assume your son will think the same. And let's face it - most circed men have never thought to question their circed status (or don't realise that any problems they have with that part of their body are related to their circ, etc), so it's awfully easy to find a lot of men out there saying - 'Yes, circ your son - that's what's best. I'm very glad my parents circed me.'

I think that, basically, it is very hard for some people to think outside of the box. And in American culture (especially in certain parts of the States), leaving your son intact involves 'thinking outside of the box'.

As crazy as that is (I totally agree that it should be the default setting - you don't cosmetically alter your child's genitals).

But there you have it.

I wish I knew how to reach these people. When people are stuck in a certain mindset, it can be next to impossible to shake them out of it. But I agree that the discussion needs to be had with compassion and gentleness. Beating someone over the head with anti-circ stuff probably isn't going to work (as tempting as it is to do!)