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How do you respond to CIOers?! - Page 2

post #21 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennymama
I don't go calling myself an AP mom, because I'm not. But I think all you mommas have a lot of great things to say and a lot of wonderful advice, ideas and support. What a bummer when it becomes a trashing session on other people's parenting styles.

Peace.
And...just for the record I didn't even touch your own personal CIO experiences, because I'm sure someone else will have plenty to say. However, I can't see why you're so bummed, you're on one of the only message boards I've been able to find that actually challenges 'popular' culture.

What exactly did you expect to find?
post #22 of 85
My only IRL response is to stare blankly and say, "We don't make our babies cry alone."

I hate debates with people. I always think my one little conversation will probably just get me another enemy and not change a thing. But I do always say what I do with my children.
post #23 of 85
SmilingChick wrote that she responds to CIO by

"minding my own business and not telling people how to raise their kids."


Originally Posted by Jennymama:
"What a bummer when it becomes a trashing session on other people's parenting styles."

mainegirl responded in part:

.... However, I can't see why you're so bummed, you're on one of the only message boards I've been able to find that actually challenges 'popular' culture.

:

As the MDC statement of purpose says,

Quote:
Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents
http://www.mothering.com/mdc/web_sta...ofpurpose.html

To me, that means a recognition that the child's rights should come first when at all humanly possible.

The idea that a mom letting her baby CIO is none of my business isn't really true...if she MAKES it my business by trying to get me to listen to her "techniques" and trying to get her to tell her it's ok with me (it's not.) or worst, makes me listen to her baby scream if I'm visiting or on the phone. Since my heart beats faster and I feel anxious when a baby cries, I can only imagine how the baby feels. Moms get overwhelmed sometimes, and I feel for them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say CIO is just fine and dandy.
post #24 of 85
I agree with the ones who say that if people aren't asking my opinion, I don't give it. I don't like people pushing their parenting tidbits on to me, so I don't push mine onto other people.

The only time I've made any sort of comment was about a year or so ago. A CIO friend of mine and I were at a bakery having some bagels. My son was not quite 2 1/2, and her son was not quite 2. Her son started crying and crying a very pitiful cry, but she just said that he was sleepy, and tried to make him lay down in the stroller so he would sleep. Well, he would have none of that, and just kept crying and screaming. Finally after about 10 minutes of this (and of my friend and I trying to talk over her son's screaming) she picked him up, and he calmed right down. I said, "Awww, that's all he wanted! He just wanted to be held by his mommy!" This is her 3rd child, and my son is my first, and she likes to play "expert mom" to me. (You all know the type, I'm sure.) She rolled her eyes and said, "No, he needs to sleep."

There was another time that this friend had an emergency come up, so I went to her house to watch her kids. Her son (the same one in the previous story) was alseep, and my friend said that if he woke up, to just "let him CIO." Let me tell you, I was in a quandary - do I go against the mom's wishes and pick him up? I know I would NOT like it if I gave EXPLICIT instructions for my son to not CIO, and my instructions were ignored. But then again, I know I couldn't bear for her son to CIO if I were in charge. But, it turned out to be a moot point anyway, since her son stayed asleep the whole time I was there.
post #25 of 85
"What exactly did you expect to find?"

What I HAVE found, thus far, is a supportive environment where women feel safe to talk about the, yes, unpopular choices that are often involved with AP. Just because I don't practice every part of your parenting philosophy doesn't mean I think it doesn't have a lot to offer, and I have gotten a lot of good input and support here. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do what I do because I KNOW it contradicts what you believe. But the OP was "How do you respond to CIO parents?" and I'm saying with respect and tolerance and an understanding that not the same things work for every person. I shared my experience, I guess because I thought it might illustrate a degree of flexibility and responsiveness that I think is probably more common among non-AP moms than you may think. i'm still a conscious parent, I don't follow the status-quo blindly.

What I feel bummed about is that I think sometimes people are even more offput by AP ideas becuase there is no tolerance for anything than 100% AP
parenting. Then they won't try any of it, which is a real shame.
post #26 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennymama
"What exactly did you expect to find?"

What I HAVE found, thus far, is a supportive environment where women feel safe to talk about the, yes, unpopular choices that are often involved with AP. Just because I don't practice every part of your parenting philosophy doesn't mean I think it doesn't have a lot to offer, and I have gotten a lot of good input and support here. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do what I do because I KNOW it contradicts what you believe. But the OP was "How do you respond to CIO parents?" and I'm saying with respect and tolerance and an understanding that not the same things work for every person. I shared my experience, I guess because I thought it might illustrate a degree of flexibility and responsiveness that I think is probably more common among non-AP moms than you may think. i'm still a conscious parent, I don't follow the status-quo blindly.

What I feel bummed about is that I think sometimes people are even more offput by AP ideas becuase there is no tolerance for anything than 100% AP
parenting. Then they won't try any of it, which is a real shame.
Look - did I question anything you said about your own personal experiences?

No I did not.

Could I have?

Yes I could have.

And it's not "my" parenting philosophy, I didn't invent it. In fact, the majority of moms I know who agree with the sorts of things I agree with still do things differently from one another.

I never refer to myself as an "AP mom" or someone who practices CIO, for example, as a "mainstream mom" because they're labels, and in labeling ourselves we're just setting ourselves up for failure anyway.

NO ONE is 100% anything, unless I were to make up something called the "Jen From Maine Parenting Method" and declare it to consist of whatever choices I happen to make that week.

Please do not put words in my mouth and make it look like I'm trying to divide myself from you, or "We who do not CIO" from "We who CIO".

You want to know the truth?

I think CIO is cruel.

So...I have a very hard time respecting someone who would do this to their child. It's just a fact. They could be the nicest, sweetest person in the world, but if they start defending their CIO stance I immediately tune them out because I am not interested in hearing their excuses.

Does this make me a bitch? Perhaps. Does it make me judgmental and high-and-mighty? No, though I can see how someone who feels I'm focusing on them might think that I am. That's their own guilt and nothing I can control. But I also don't go running around shoving it in everyone's faces. However, you seemed interested and so I've told you.

If you feel guilty, it's your own problem and not mine. I am an opposer of issues, not the people who practice them. I have every right to talk about them and voice my opinion, and I choose the proper venue in which to do so.


P.S. I do not follow anything 'blindly' and I take offense that you would imply that. Also just for the record.
post #27 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmilingChick
By minding my own business and not telling people how to raise their kids.
:
post #28 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by isosmom
oh, at some point this will end. I mean, I don't think I've met anyone who likes CIO, they think it's the only thing to do, ykwim?
yeah just like globalisation.

my problem is that whatever i do, be it family bed, breastfeeding, slinging ... people think i am doing it because i am indian. so ti kind of makes them all the more righteous in their 'american' way of child raising. in fact
post #29 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by amma!
yeah just like globalisation.

my problem is that whatever i do, be it family bed, breastfeeding, slinging ... people think i am doing it because i am indian. so ti kind of makes them all the more righteous in their 'american' way of child raising. in fact
If you're American and you do any of these "wacky" types of things you just get called a "damned hippie".

:LOL
post #30 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennymama

What I feel bummed about is that I think sometimes people are even more offput by AP ideas becuase there is no tolerance for anything than 100% AP
parenting. Then they won't try any of it, which is a real shame.
I don't really get this. Is this like the confusing argument I sometimes hear that more moms would breastfeed if bf moms weren't so "radical?" This really doesn't make any sense to me.

There are CIO support boards on the web. There are magazines that support CIO. I don't go to these boards and I don't read these magazines.
I'm very glad MDC exists as an antidote to CIO and safe haven for moms who don't believe in it.
post #31 of 85
A pp suggests that cio is fine for mellow babies and I assume feels all babies are mellow hence the exaggerated negative reactions reported here and elsewear If the sleep trainers include a how to section on dealing with vomitting under duress I think its fair to say it is not an unfrequent occurance. And really if you have such a mellow baby I would guess non cio methods would probably solve your problem. The end does not justify the means when cio is involved imo.
post #32 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegirl
If you're American and you do any of these "wacky" types of things you just get called a "damned hippie".

:LOL

OOO, OOOO, Me, me... Can I be a hippie?

:LOL

No, my DH says I will never be a hippie, just a wild child... in a mini skirt.


I know for certain that my mom and both my grandmas never let their children just CIO. So it is not a NEW radical idea...

And my mom is so not a hippie. She always wore "classic" clothing.

I am rambling on, ooops...

What I posted before is what I tell new parents. I mean they want me there, they want me to help them, I AM their doula. Some are getting conflicting ideas and messages from family members, so that is what I tell them. (see my earlier post)
post #33 of 85
How I respond depends on the parent. I have a former friend who tried to let his 10 week old cio at my house. That baby wound up in my moby wrap. Interesting story, if you want to read it click my name and find the post I started months ago about bf someone else's baby.

Well, a few months later he came over again and did the same thing. The first time she was crying I went and got her. He got pretty irritated with me. He eventually put her back in the bedroom, and turned the monitor off this time. She fell asleep after crying about 10 minutes. However, I haven't talked to him since and don't plan to. I have decided that I simply don't want to be friends with him anymore, and the cio thing is a major part of the decision (he also did this with his ds and he is a pretty insecure little guy )

Now, if I were to meet up with Jennymama, and heard her story, I would not react the same way at all. In fact, I might say something like, "That must've been hard on you to have to resort to that. I understand what it is like to try for hours to put a child down to sleep."

If I think about it, I actually HAVE done CIO. I have held my ds on my chest with him kicking and screaming, crying really hard. This happens after I have been nursing him, rocking him, soothing him, for about an hour. Many times his eyes are just closed and then they pop open and he either wants to play, or wants to cry and throw himself around, or he wants to bite my nipples : . Meanwhile, this whole time dd has been in the other room all alone. Well, unless you count the tv as a friend . This is not a good situation and it happens almost daily. I have taken him to the dr 3 times in the past 2 months to make sure nothing is bothering him. I have given him Tylenol for teething. I have given him homeopathic remedies. I have tried taking him on car rides. The sling no longer works. If we owned a crib, I have to admit that I might very well be in Jennymama's shoes. I would hate it, and I don't know if I honestly would really do it. But seriously, you can only up your Zoloft so many times...

I plan to try Dr. Jay's method for nighttime weaning soon, and am working on a good naptime routine. But my point is (after all that...) I understand that there are different degrees of CIO. While I am definitely against it in general, I also know that few parents have truly experienced a really really REALLY bad sleeper. It is hard to see this over the internet, but when I hear Jennymama say she has a close bonded relationship with her dd, I believe her. I know moms who call themselves AP but don't even notice when their baby is crying on the floor next to them. Then other moms have no idea what AP is, but if observe them for a few minutes it becomes clear they follow the AP philosophy.

Ok, I keep editing this post over and over... it is as clear as it is gonna get. I never was good at essays... :LOL
post #34 of 85
Ooo! Oooh! I have an ancedote!

But first...I want to make very clear that Jennymama and I are NOT sworn enemies. We're talking via PM and it's obvious that we're not hating on one another. I will reiterate that I hate the practice of CIO, not the people who practice it, and I am very passionate about voicing my opinion.

Okay, on to the ancedote!

When I was home with my son (my first and only, so far!) my doula came to visit me. I was still in that weird "argh I'm going to break him!" stage so was handling him so gingerly, and I was extra nervous because here was a woman with four children there to witness my ineptitude. At one point Michael started crying and I was holding him, trying to soothe him. She held out her arms to me so I handed him off, and she said,

"The best way to stop babies from crying is not to let them start!"

And of course Michael chose that moment to become Zen Buddha Baby of Calmness and Peace.

I felt so crushed, like I was a total failure because I couldn't keep Michael from crying! He cried about all sorts of stuff! Poop! Food! Clothes! No clothes! I was so exhausted and PPD and here was this squalling little bundle of flailing limbs and I COULDN'T DO IT!

Looking back, however, I realize that she was just trying to be helpful and offer some advice that she lives by. It did help me be a more aware parent, and more responsive to his needs, but it also dealt me a good dose of humility because I realized there is no way that you can keep a child from ever crying.

In fact, I remember saying to myself, "It is my goal to see if I can make it one entire day with no crying!"

:LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL

Yeah, okay, I was naive. Kidlet is 21 months now and I have NEVER had a day that he hasn't cried at all. These days the waterworks turn on at terrible, awful things like, "It's time for dinner!" and "Let's get dressed!"

Toddlers are like PMSing women.

Anyway, I don't know where that was going, except to say that it's easy to take advice given with care and take it too personally.

The End.
post #35 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simply Nurtured
I know for certain that my mom and both my grandmas never let their children just CIO. So it is not a NEW radical idea...

And my mom is so not a hippie. She always wore "classic" clothing.
My mom did CIO and frequently has expressed guilty feelings about it.

My MIL and her mom did not use CIO.

Not a Birkenstock nor a paisley skirt wearer among them.
post #36 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtwice
My mom did CIO and frequently has expressed guilty feelings about it.

My MIL and her mom did not use CIO.

Not a Birkenstock nor a paisley skirt wearer among them.
It's a FIGURE OF SPEECH!

Damn hippies.
post #37 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn
I can't believe anybody on MDC is defending CIO.
And I can't believe that anyone anywhere thinks so simplistically. There are a broad range of behaviors that fit within "CIO" and there are undoubtedly numerous ways that babies respond to it. And many of the people I know believed that they were responding -- to their babies' need for sleep -- by engaging in some of what I would consider to be gentle CIO strategies. And most of the people I've talked to believe that it was the best thing for their children and noted positive changes in them afterwards (though I've also talked to some people who had negative experiences). If a co-sleeper or an extended BF'er claimed that those practices were best for their children and someone on here doubted that, she'd be flamed to h^ll and back. Just because I personally disagree with that parenting strategy (as in CIO) doesn't mean that I distrust when parents that I know say it was best for their kids. I wish I could point to some objective piece of evidence, or some annoying characteristic in the children that I know, that seems to indicate that these children are "damaged." But I can't. I definately believe that children can be damaged (and I know some parents who say so), but I just dont' believe that all children are damaged.

Sometimes I think these boards are just turning into a big kvetch about all those other parents who are so inferior to us here at MDC. I wish I understood the need to put people down whose parenting practices you disagree with. And anytime someone says that the world is more complex that this, that there is a wide range within any kind of parenting behavior, you get put down too.

I come here for insight on how to be a more responsive and nurturing mother. It doesn't help me be a better mother to put other people down, and I suspect it doesn't help anyone else either.

Finally, you should recognize before you go assuming that everyone is the same as you, that there is a great deal of diversity, in parenting styles and in all other ways, of the members here. There is no litmus test on what we all have to believe in order to be a member here. What a tedious and mindless place this would be otherwise.

Karla
post #38 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifetapestry
Finally, you should recognize before you go assuming that everyone is the same as you, that there is a great deal of diversity, in parenting styles and in all other ways, of the members here.
I think that by saying "you" as a general pronoun meaning "everyone who believes XYZ" that you (meaning personally) should follow your own advice

Unless you're just referring to Kathryn, but I don't get the feeling you were.
post #39 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegirl

You want to know the truth?

I think CIO is cruel.

So...I have a very hard time respecting someone who would do this to their child. It's just a fact. They could be the nicest, sweetest person in the world, but if they start defending their CIO stance I immediately tune them out because I am not interested in hearing their excuses.

Does this make me a bitch? Perhaps. Does it make me judgmental and high-and-mighty? No, though I can see how someone who feels I'm focusing on them might think that I am. That's their own guilt and nothing I can control. But I also don't go running around shoving it in everyone's faces.
:
post #40 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegirl
It's a FIGURE OF SPEECH!
I KNOW! :LOL
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