How do you respond to CIOers?! - Page 3

[mainegirl]

Originally Posted by Momtwice

I KNOW! :LOL

I KNOW YOU KNOW!

DAMN HIPPIES!!!!!

boy:

[Momtwice]

Originally Posted by mainegirl

I KNOW YOU KNOW!

DAMN HIPPIES!!!!!

:

[meco]

Originally Posted by lifetapestry

I do believe that extreme CIO practices, that result in hours of crying over a prolonged period of time, must be bad for kids and their relationships with their parents. But I remain unconvinced that all CIO can be labeled as the horror that some advocate.

Ok, but where should the line be drawn?

I for one advocate no CIO at all for many reasons. One is that there is no set time when it becomes detrimental to a child.

[mainegirl]

Originally Posted by meco

Ok, but where should the line be drawn?

I for one advocate no CIO at all for many reasons. One is that there is no set time when it becomes detrimental to a child.

I posted another thread in this forum about hearing damage...if a baby cries at 110 decibels, it only takes one minute, 29 seconds before hearing damage occurs. I'd never thought of it like that before, but there is a very real potential for such a thing totally separate from the emotional issue.

[meco]

Originally Posted by michelemiller

i agree w/karla...i have many friends who practiced CIO and it went smoothly and quickly for them and they have excellent sleepers now...

So the only possible effects are seen immediately? I think people often go for the short term, they live in the now. But what about down the road? What about long term effects? And manifestations of being abandoned and made to be indepedent before you are ready?

[Momtwice]

Originally Posted by meco

So the only possible effects are seen immediately? I think people often go for the short term, they live in the now. But what about down the road? What about long term effects? And manifestations of being abandoned and made to be indepedent before you are ready?

Have you seen this link?
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

And where is the thread that was posted recently from an MDC mom whose baby cousin burst a blood vessel in the throat and the mother was no longer "allowed" to let the baby CIO?

[meco]

Mainegirl,

I had no idea. Wow. Yet another reason not to use CIO. But I am not physically capable of it.

Here is an antcedote for you. I took care of the kids in one family for 5 years when I was in college. The twins were subjected to CIO since their mom had a new baby.. I came in when they were 1.8 years when their mother had the new baby. They were both acting out a lot, horrible at bedtime. It was a massive fight. And it broke my heart to listen to them cry (this at 17. It emotionally scarred me. I can still hear their desperate cries.) I was responsible for bedtime every night. Finally, I suggested to the mother, who I considered a friend, that the CIO and the behavior could be connected. She agreed to let me lay in there and see what happens. Within a few days they asked to go to bed and never fought again. After a month or two of me being there and knowing they could count on me to come in if they did need me, they went to bed easily and with little help.

They may or may not be connected, but in this case ending one behavior also ended another.


I have friends who berate me for not letting my son cry at all, not letting him be independent (which is laughable because he is very independent). I definitely make my views known.

I think the most frustrating thing with people I know who plan to or do use CIO is that they just take that as the solution. All I ask is that people be informed, but many are not. They do it because so and so said to, the book said to do it. If people came to the table with facts and support, it makes something easier to debate (debating opinions is not the easiest one).

[meco]

Originally Posted by Momtwice

Have you seen this link?
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

And where is the thread that was posted recently from an MDC mom whose baby cousin burst a blood vessel in the throat and the mother was no longer "allowed" to let the baby CIO?

I feel like I have, but I may have not. :LOL Thanks for posting it.

The pair examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds -- even separate rooms -- and not responding quickly to their cries may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.

Bold mine.

So there is proof this leads to future problems. I need to send this link to some friends. Especially the woman who told me to use a stick if my son woke up in the middle of the night

Does anyone know when CIO become popular? (I know my siblings and I were not CIOers when we were born from 77-84, but I only know my family) I am curious as to how it correlates with the numbers in PTS and panic disorders.

Additionally, the nation's growing wealth has helped the trend toward separation by giving families the means to buy larger homes with separate rooms for children.

The result, Commons and Miller said, is a nation that doesn't like caring for its own children, a violent nation marked by loose, nonphysical relationships.

"I think there's a real resistance in this culture to caring for children," Commons said. But "punishment and abandonment has never been a good way to get warm, caring, independent people."

[HelloKitty]

Last week I was at my in-laws and my littlest baby boy: had fallen asleep on my shoulder, he was snoozing blissfully while I was sitting down - we were both quite content and happy.

My FIL says "Why don't you go put him down and take a break?" I said "No that's OK we are happy - and besides if I put him down by himself he will be upset and start crying." FIL says "So let him cry - he needs to learn that life isn't fair, might as well teach him now." :

I can't see ANY good reason why a 12 week old baby needs to learn that life isn't fair!! And I can't see any good reason why a baby needs to cry by him or herself. Yet this is the type of crap I hear all the time, from my in-laws, from my parents, from others around me.

I don't like labels and I don't like to fight about a list of requirements to be "AP" but I do think at it's core is a fundamental belief that parents should make choices based on their instincts. And listening to a baby cry SHOULD go against a parent's instinct. I too am very surprised anyone would advocate CIO on MDC.

[ShadowMom]

You know, most people don't research their parenting extensively, find the right solution, and then implement it. Most people do whatever they feel like doing, and then implement an extensive rationlization process to justify doing what they wanted to do.

My experience is that you might influence someone by finding a really nonjudgmental way of suggesting it, or you might influence someone by modeling what you do with your own children. But by and large, people do what they want to do. And, lots of people want to sleep through the night and they don't really care if there is some theoretical "risk" that it might affect the attachment of the baby, which is not something that you can quantify very well.

[kavamamakava]

I've only run into this online. I usually make a comment about how I like to be there as much as I can when they are babies in order to build up trust so that they will be confident and independent later on instead of worried that I might not be there.

[RedWine]

Hola Karla,

Now I see why you were so adamant about dismissing the research...

for those who are interested, check out a very related thread:

http://69.20.14.30/discussions/showthread.php?t=260344
(The "baby sleep training is a fast-growing industry" thread).

Karla and I got into a debate of sorts. I won't rehash it here (and I won't get into it with you again, Karla, who has the time to be repetitive?) -- y'all can just read it on the other thread.

[broodymama]

Originally Posted by meco

I need to send this link to some friends. Especially the woman who told me to use a stick if my son woke up in the middle of the night

OK, I hate to ask, but what did this woman think the stick should be used for?

[kavamamakava]

Originally Posted by amma!

yeah just like globalisation.

my problem is that whatever i do, be it family bed, breastfeeding, slinging ... people think i am doing it because i am indian. so ti kind of makes them all the more righteous in their 'american' way of child raising. in fact

I'm not Indian, but I was raised that way. I do what I do because of that

[RedWine]

Meco,

The PTS and panic disorders are most likely a result of the damage elevated levels of cortisol do to various parts of the brain. I've thoroughly read mass amounts of scientific research, and I've been in touch with Commons at Harvard (he's a very nice man). To be brief, an infant under the age of one year is particularly susceptible to elevated levels of cortisol, which is produced in copious amounts during crying spells. Long-term, negative consequences on parts of the brain appear extremely likely. See the thread I mentioned above for a bit more detail.

One day I'll clean up the typos in my thesis prospectus and just post a link to it in my signature. It'll summarize much of the research, along with providing references to all the papers.

Forgive my horrible writing today, I have a toddler trying to stand on my lap while my infant sleeps on my shoulder...

[meco]

Originally Posted by LadyBug & BabyBug

OK, I hate to ask, but what did this woman think the stick should be used for?

I was traveling, and I mentioned how my son wanted to play during the night-not that I care. She brought it up.

Then she told me to get her almost 3 year old to stay in bed and not cry, she hit and threatened him with a stick. : She also gave me a Growing Kids God's Way or one of the s: books that she "lives by." You know, the spare the rod, spoil the child B.S.

She also told me I am doing my son a disservice by not using physical punishment. Wonder of all wonders--her son has many issues with cooperation, respect and behavior. So far my son has not exihibited any.


eta: I feel horrible for her 2 children. Worse though is she is a pastor's wife, and she spreads this gospel and God's one and true way to the women in her church. She teaches classes on it. Including my poor just married sister : I am pissed at how long it will take me to undo that brainwashing. :

[kavamamakava]

I just wanted to point out that when a baby cries, that is not automatically CIO. CIO = CRY IT OUT. In other words, leave the baby in isolation to cry alone. Some people feel they are more humane when they periodically check on the baby at specified intervals, but there is always a leave the baby to cry alone component. If your baby is crying in your arms, it is not CIO. If your baby is crying on your lap, it's not CIO. If your baby is crying on the bed next to you, it's not CIO. If you are present and attempting to comfort your baby in some way, it's not CIO.

Sometimes babies need to vent and that's fine. But we can let them know we are there to listen. We dont' even have to solve it. You're not a bad mom if your baby cries. But a good friend would be there to listen to you if you needed to vent without offering judgments or pat solutions that just end up bothering you. Why not do the same for your babies?

I went through those phases with my kids where they were really confused about what they needed to do. Between teething pain and the desire to continue crawling because they just learned how to do it and being overtired, sometimes they did need to be left alone to vent until falling asleep. But I didn't stick them in a dark room and leave. I did lots of things like put a pillow on the floor next to me so they could roll around and vent until they fell asleep or laid on the bed with them and continued to help them back up everytime they climbed down until they were physically exhausted enough to sleep. I've even strapped a baby onto my body with a sling and paced the hall really quickly so they wouldn't try to climb out and would be forced to go to sleep. I've also put them in a stroller and sang songs while pushing it back and forth in the living room. I've even driven around the neighborhood with them strapped in their carseats while keeping up a soothing monologue. I don't consider any of that CIO.

[RedWine]

nak

Kavamamakava,

Yes -- and I should clarify that the research that exists is on mother-infant seperaration/infant isolation and obvious infant distress.

There are actually papers out there on monkey infants separated from their moms and put in another room alone, and infants separated from their moms but placed where they could still see/hear their moms. Both sets of infants made distressing sounds (I guess their way of crying) -- but the ones that were isolated had the skyrocketing cortisol.

Yes, CIO means the infant is alone and mama is purposefully ignoring the cries.

Again forgive the spelling errors -- juggling children here...time to go outside and play!

[Kathryn]

So, does that mean Jo Frosts method of CIO isn't harmful? I still would never do that to my child, but I'm just curious

[CryPixie83]

Originally Posted by amma!

yeah just like globalisation.

my problem is that whatever i do, be it family bed, breastfeeding, slinging ... people think i am doing it because i am indian. so ti kind of makes them all the more righteous in their 'american' way of child raising. in fact

Amma,
For what it's worth I generally feel more comfortable around the Indian families I meet when out and about than I do the "typical (non-AP) American" families because I know (from what I have learned here on MDC) that Indian parents (and grandparents, etc) are usually much more kind to their children. I hope I worded that right... lol I'm trying to type and keep dd entertained :LOL

And in response to the OP: It depends on the situation. The first time I had ever been exposed to CIO was with a friend of mine and her dd (who was about 18-20 months at the time). We were at their house, talking, watching the guys play video games and 9 pm rolls around. Leading up to 9 pm my friend had been telling her dd "15 minutes till bedtime" "5 minutes left", etc and when it came time she picked her daughter up (who was alread crying because she didn't want to go to bed), carried her upstairs, stayed up there for a little while calming her down and came back downstairs. As soon as her dd's door was closed behind mommy the little one was crying. 10 minutes later we're sitting on the couch and dd is screaming and crying "mommy mommy, please" and I just felt like crying, and I said to my friend "I don't know how you do that, I couldn't listen to it" and she replied "Yea, it's hard".

A different friend of mine (also an ex-girlfriend) had her dd six weeks after I had my dd and was living with her ILs (bad idea) and her MIL has heavy influence in that house. MIL told her to let her dd CIO and my friend being inexperienced and easily influenced (as is her nature) did it. Well, she was telling me about it on the phone and told me she would cry outside the baby's door because it broke her heart. I told her it was because she was going against her instincts, she knew she was doing something wrong and to knock it off, listen to her instincts and stop being cruel to her child. I told her that her dd is HER child, not her MILs so do what she thought was right. She thanked me. No, I wouldn't speak like that to everyone, I know this woman very well and know how to speak with her to get through to her without offending her.

In general if someone, say in a playgroup or similar setting, were preaching the miracles of CIO I'd probably tell them I think it's a cruel practice and I could never do something so disrespectful to my child.