So how do we help woh AND sah familes survive *happily*? - Page 3

[Shenjall]

Anyway, I think the idea of a higher child tax credit for all parents, but I think that someone said that the amount that you recieve for that depends on your income, so that might actually leave less for woh parents cause most likely their income would be higher. So maybe it would have to be equal across the board without taking income into account.

I just wanted to add that it used to be that way. Everyone got the same amount - the single mom with 5 kids on welfare got the same as household income of $200,000.

[my2girlsmama]

Originally Posted by Mothra

You still haven't explained how money from the government for better childcare is given at the expense of families with a parent that stay at home. That is the same money that is used for roads that you may or may not use, schools that you may or may not send your kids to, and all kinds of things that don't affect you directly.

I don't see your point at all.

Because you don't want to.

Why should they get more money simply to benefit daycare (not against it, remember, just in regards to equality for sah) when a sah family doesn't? So myself, as a sahm couldn't use that same sort of money for, oh say, an extra educational program for my children? For school uniforms? (which my dd wears and we pay for) etc? THAT seems fair to me is all I am trying to say. I don't get anything extra for *staying home* and watching my children day in and day out, on this tight budget, and hey, what if I wanted to or had the opportunity to wah, and couldn't afford the supplies etc....shouldn't my government allow me the benefits that they do working families so I *could* earn more from home? Maybe so I could pay to have someone come help me watch them here at home while I worked here?

I'm not trying to debate you so please, maybe lessen your tone which is coming off negative. I am just saying I'd appreciate equality.

[my2girlsmama]

Originally Posted by jessemoon

I think that this is great for working families. Does this mean that I think that sahms shouldn't get some sort of tax break too? Not at all. (Wow, what was that...a quadruple negative?) What I mean is that I don't believe that help (economic or social) for one kind of family has to come at the expense of another type of family.

I don't believe in the idea that if I can't get a tax-break as a sahm...then by golly noone else should either. The child-care tax credit (or whatever it is called) is a good start...now perhaps it needs to be expanded to include sahps as well.

I agree. I am not saying NO ONE should get the tax break-but we ALL should. I contribute just as much being at home as I did when I worked out of the home. We still pay just as much tax and yet don't get the break day care families do (in Canada anyways...............)

[my2girlsmama]

Originally Posted by chalupamom

I have to confess that I'm confused as well by the specific example offered. My2girlsmama, what is it that the government offering two-income families that you object to? Is it a deduction of some childcare expenses? Subsidy of childcare expenses? Some other thing?

And why is it you object to the program, whatever it is? Is it that you object to your tax dollars being used for things that you either don't approve of or that you don't take advantage of? I get the former (since it makes me hopping mad that my taxes fund a war I don't agree with) and believe the latter makes a weaker case. In either case, how is the program's existence harming single-income/two-parent families? What is the impact on single-income/single-parent families?

I'm sorry I should be more clear. I am not on here daily so I am trying to follow the discussion............

I don't object to it in the sense that it is needed. For the families who work and need it, of course it is a good thing. But yes, I object to MY tax dollars going to something (again) that I am not even a part of! Why should I pay more for someone else's child to be in daycare? Maybe I am wrong and my government won't take from ALL Canadians but I somehow doubt that, since I know other sah citizens who are upset by this initiative. Simply put if I have to pay taxes I want the breaks as well. I want to get a break equally as someone who works and places their child in outside care does. Especially if it is coming from my taxes.

[my2girlsmama]

Originally Posted by tricia80

im ALL for childcare funding.. finally...

not everyone can SAHM.. thats the reality... and some ppl dont want to SAHM... and not all daycares are evil... i think they need to definately give more money to daycares to help them.. so they can give the best care for these children who are there..

when both sides can stop judging each other and work together that would be great.. heck i would love to find an AP mama to send dd to for the summer to be taken care of.. and my dd is too old for childcare so she stays with my aunt... my dd has been in daycare.. and shes sorta normal (she is my kid u know) :LOL

Hey where do you live? I'd watch her!

[my2girlsmama]

Originally Posted by chalupamom

Yeah, I think you're right. The daycare initiative sounds great and something that's very much needed here in the US, too. It would be nice if some money could also be directed into community-based programs for at-home parents - maybe a high-quality drop-in care for emergencies (like doctor's appts., etc.) and good, well-equipped play group situations, emergency grants for when the primary earner misses shifts, commissions or whatever.

What's the angle on daycare initiative being harmful to single-income/two-parent families? I'm still not clear on this.

Ok, I just want to clarify I am not against the initiative at all. HERE IT IS

I simply would like, as you stated here, equality for sah familes as well. Sort of like you mentioned above, a program etc....if needed. Or wanted.

I feel like I am being vilified here and I am not against this. Just not happy to see more of my taxpaying dollars put into yet another initiative that I may not ever be a part of, when I'd like to see some put into things I am living personally.

Sorry if I am coming off badly about it. And no, I said from my originating post I don't want a debate, so mods.....relax. We're just chatting it up....I truly wanted thoughts, ideas..........not so much a discussion of my government's ways............but more on how we sah families can work WITH woh families on supporting one another etc................

[laralou]

*getting mod panties out of twist*
Glad to see it all worked out!

[mamawanabe]

But there are all kinds of tax breaks that other families/people qualify for that I don't. Which doesn't mean sah moms/dads shouldn't be given a tax break/credit, but why the frustration at a day care tax credit/break you don't get? I won't get the 10,000 adoption tax credit even though I will pay 2,500-5,000 in 20% co-pays and deductables to have my baby. But I don't feel really frustrated at the inequality of it?? I understand that it is in our society's interest to encourage adoption. Just as I, who plan on sahm, understand it is in our society's interest to help parents who work to be able to afford GOOD childcare.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Let me see if I am on the same page here. There is concern that tax $'s are going towards daycare for working parents, but there isn't equal, but different tax $'s going towards sah parents? Am I getting that part so far?

I think we are all on the same page there. Woh families need $ to get good licensed daycare, and sah families need $ to pay car insurance, dr. bills, etc on a lower budget. So basically, kids are expensive. We all need help. I mentioned something about the child tax credit before, and making it = across the board, but then someone mentioned that someone making 200,000 and someone on wellfare would get the same $ per child. So I guess that now it is figured out on a scaled basis? This is so complicated! I just wish I had a degree in economics to figure this out. I think that is part of the problem, things are so complicated that you need a degree in economics to figure it out.

Personally, I have a degree in Natural Resource Management, and you'd think when it comes down to the basics, we are dealing with natural resources at a very basic level. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be appropriate to have a survival of the fitess in this type of situation. Maybe wer need to move towards a more comunal society. Where the sah families watch the woh children, have gardens and educate the children and the woh families buy the materials and offer take care of the finances? I know a crazy dream, that isn't going to happen, but I guess it is the spirit of the thing that matters.

We are all part of this world wide community, and have to figure out how to work together without finger pointing and appreciate what each of us brings to the table. I respect woh moms, they seem so organized and pulled together. I respect sah moms, they seem so easy going and comfortable with a certain amount of chaos. I miss working, but love being at home, most of the time, with my children. OK, what I think we need to do, is to bring the conversation to the moms that don't feel this way. To the moms that look down on each other for the decisions that they've made. That is really where we need to start. I guess discussing tax credits is good and important, but if we can't get moms to understand other moms, we're not going to get anywhere. Maybe a sah/woh exchange program, kind of like wife swap only without the drama?

[Shenjall]

See, for me, I dont think its a matter of having woh/sah understand each other or live in each others shoes....I think it has to come from within. To be truly confident in whatever decision you make. So when my woh sis says things like "oh, you're so lucky to be at home" I dont take it as a personal attack or when I say "its important to me to be at home with my kids" she doesnt take it as a personal attack. KWIM? So we can all talk about what works for us without that little evil guilt getting our backs up.
Then we need society to value parenting - woh/sah or whatever in between.

So I guess that now it is figured out on a scaled basis?

REgarding this and the child tax benefit, its based on total family income; marital status and I *think* child care costs. I'll find the link and you can play around with it.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/dchmf/icbc-...&baseYear=2004

[Mothra]

Because you don't want to.

No, because now you are backtracking trying to make sure that you don't start a "debate". The fact is that you ARE saying that you think this particular initiative is coming "at the expense" of families with a parent that stays at home. You can talk about wanting something for yourself without disparaging something that someone else has. Basically, you started a thread whining about families who pay for childcare get something you don't, and then turn around and say "how can we work together?" I'm not following you because you aren't making sense.

which i do see is a good thing, just not at the (again) expense of the sah family

Again, you're going to have to explain how this initiative comes at the expense of families that stay at home more than tax breaks for families who care for a blind relative, adopt a child, or use a public school that you don't use because you haven't done that yet.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

OK, I'm not sure, but this looks as though it is headed the same way as the previously dead thread. I think when we start throwing around words like whining and because you don't want too, we're making the same mistakes that lead to all the misunderstandings in the first place.

Shenjall- your probably right about being confident in the decisions that we all make. I do think sometimes though it is hard not to have the grass is greener attitude. I also have a sister that works, so I think in that way we are more exposed to the different stresses that effect each family, and are able to be confident in our decision without judging others decisions. I don't think that people who don't look down at each other have the "problem" But what do we do to help those who really do have a problem with the sah or woh lifestyles, how do we bring them together to form a strong alliance, and can we? Is there a way to promote more understanding without thing deteriorating into a debate about who gets more, and who deserves more? Even this discussion,which is supposed to be a friendly exchange of views is begining to show signs of hostility. How do we avoid that?

[Mothra]

Look, when someone who wrote a lengthy diatribe about how I must hate all men because I voiced concerns about the impact of taking all mothers, which constitutes the vast majority of the female population, out of the workplace starts a thread about how initiatives to improve the quality of childcare hurt families that have a parent at home, I'm going to be skeptical. The fact is that the OP stated that a particular initiative to improve childcare comes "at the expense" of faimlies with a parent at home. That is divisive and doesn't really address the issue of support for families with a parent at home. There is a world of difference between the OP and saying, "We have this initiative that helps children in families that use childcare. Is there something similar that we could do to help families with a parent at home?"

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

I don't know the history, and I am sorry there is bad blood, but the rest of us are really saying exactly what you are saying we should be saying , and I have really taken the thread at face value. Does that make any sense? Perhaps for the sake of the thread, if there are personal problems or issues, you could pm each other? I just would hate to lose another thread and the chance to work through some of these important issues. Hope that wasn't too pushy, and I certainly don't want to cause any bad blood with anyone, I you all!

[Shenjall]

But what do we do to help those who really do have a problem with the sah or woh lifestyles, how do we bring them together to form a strong alliance, and can we?

I'm very optimistic that we can. In my personal experience, the ones with the "problem" (who dont encourage/understand the other side of the fence) are dealing with something inside of them.

So, ideas on what to do? Kill 'em with kindness! Encourage encourage encourage. Let the other side know how proud you are of what they do.

Realize within yourself that your choices (woh/sah) that are important to you - may not be important to someone else. And you cant make your ideals important to someone else.

Make these uplifting comments your siggy.

I'm going to change mine right now.....

[mamawanabe]

Originally Posted by Shenjall

In my personal experience, the ones with the "problem" (who dont encourage/understand the other side of the fence) are dealing with something inside of them.

I think so too. You only have a personal stake in whether another person's child is in daycare or annother mother is staying home if you have some level of conflict about your own decision. These decisions aren't easy and they are unfair (I for instance, won't be able to return to my career because my field doesn't allow for time off or even part-time work) - no one is going to be 100% about about anything, but I don't think it turns into a self-rightous victim complex unless you are unhappy with you decision (or feel like you don't really have a choice and).

How to make other people happy when these decisions are ALWAYS imperfect - you are poor or you have lost forever the career you love or you miss your kids or you are told you put money above your children. And everyone is frazzled and pulled a million ways.

Of course, belittling commenst have to stop immediately. sahm don't ahve it easy and wohm are not having other people raise their kids.

But what next?

[Mothra]

Hateful previous posts aside, I still don't think the OP has done anything to clarify her earlier statements about help for families where both parents work coming at the expense of families in which one parent stays home.

[chalupamom]

Originally Posted by my2girlsmama

But yes, I object to MY tax dollars going to something (again) that I am not even a part of!

Originally Posted by my2girlsmama

Why should I pay more for someone else's child to be in daycare? Maybe I am wrong and my government won't take from ALL Canadians but I somehow doubt that, since I know other sah citizens who are upset by this initiative.

Originally Posted by my2girlsmama

Simply put if I have to pay taxes I want the breaks as well. I want to get a break equally as someone who works and places their child in outside care does. Especially if it is coming from my taxes.

I'm not at all familiar with the Canadian tax code and my familiarity with the U.S.'s is cursory at best. With that in mind I think it's important to remember that we all pay into programs in which we don't participate or from which we don't receive direct benefit (although there may be indirect, societal benefits, as is likely the case with the daycare initiative). Here in the U.S. my taxes are used to pay for all kind of things from the NEA (love it!) to the war (grrr) to the Interstate system (love my road trips) to WIC (knock wood, I've not needed it). Although I *do* begrudge the war money, I certainly don't hold WIC recipients as taking something from me and, as Mothra points out, even though I don't and don't intend to use public schools I don't believe the pupils to be receiving something out of my pocket that somehow rightfully belongs to me. If an artist receives a grant from the NEH (National Endowment for the Humanities) for a composition that I'll never get to hear for some reason, the grant is not a theft from me...is it?

Originally Posted by mamawanabe

But what next?

One critical point in addition to accepting that our choices and ideals are ours alone and accepting that one family's reality has no bearing whatsoever on anothers is realizing that this is not a zero-sum game. Good feelings and societal support expressed here do not mean that they cannot also be expressed there. Money spent here does not mean that money cannot also be spent there. Instead of howling that WIC funding is increasing, howl instead about the conditions that make it necessary and cheer that more families will have that much more help in feeding their families...rather than shout and hop up and down about a daycare funding program, rail instead at the circumstances that make good, nurturing daycare so unaffordable for so many and celebrate that children in your community will well-cared for and will benefit from the initiative.

And then. And then say to these families, "What else do you need? What holes still exist for you? I can help you fill them. Will you help me fill mine?"

How many of us can say we're ready to do this? Because this is what I think would be really productive.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

chalupamom-
I think you are right. We have to see any initiative that helps families as helping society! And in reality, the problem rests with societal views of what family values really are. I am wondering why is good daycare so expensive, is getting a daycare license very expensive, what else contributes to the costs of daycare? In my area, we can hardly afford preschool for my son, $250 a month for 3 half days? Why isn't preschool public for all children? And why oh why in today's world are so many US citizens and families not have health insurance? THis is a crime against all families!! These are some of the things that drive me insane, and effct a lot of families.

[USAmma]

closed pending moderation.

This appears to have turned into anther debate, and debates are not welcome in this forum.