"Bottlefeeding Without Guilt" - Page 5

[PancakeGoddess]

Originally Posted by thismama

It's not about whether it's okay to communicate facts. It is about not judging mothers for not breastfeeding, and instead focussing that energy toward creating a pro-bf culture.

I totally agree, thismama. The thing is, I just don't hear the bashing you describe. I do see unequivocal statements of bfing superiority, and I constantly hear ffing moms say they are being guilt-tripped when those facts are stated. Unfortunately, the facts are not a guilt trip. They're just facts.

[ramlita]

Originally Posted by benjalo

I totally agree, thismama. The thing is, I just don't hear the bashing you describe. I do see unequivocal statements of bfing superiority, and I constantly hear ffing moms say they are being guilt-tripped when those facts are stated. Unfortunately, the facts are not a guilt trip. They're just facts.

Yes! that's what I've seen, too.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by ramlah

In no way do I think the original post was out of place, and I've felt hurt on the OP's behalf every time someone has posted to suggest that it was.

Food for thought is food for thought. We've got four pages of constructive, thoughtful discussion so far...

I think if she was seriously recommending that breastfeeding advocates read this book, then yes, it is out of place in this forum, at least as I understand the purpose of this forum. It should probably be placed in the Books forum, if any.

I will admit that I have been unhappy with some of the things posted on this forum in the last year or so, so maybe I am just being sensitive about this.

A couple of years ago there was an article in the newspaper about how publishing reports about the good effects of breastfeeding makes mothers who can't breastfeed feel guilty. The article questioned whether publishing reports about the benefits of breastfeeding did more harm than good.

There have been so many threads here where the poster couldn't breastfeed and wants to remind the advocates here that not every mother can do so. I feel like there is a lot of projecting going on. I hate the generalizations made about breastfeeding advocates, even on this breastfeeding advocacy forum. I feel like some people are coming here to ask for understanding, but insulting us in the way they ask.

The comment in the OP about the insensitivity of lactavists is darn insulting, if it was meant in any other way but tongue-in-cheek.

[quelindo]

Originally Posted by mindycat72

However, what I do know, is that few mothers would knowingly do something harmful to their children. FF and BF moms have one thing in mind. To do what THEY think, to the best of their knowledge and abilities, is right for their kids.

Actually, I just posted about finding out that neither of my SIL's ever wanted to or even tried to breastfeed their daughters. Their reason was that when you breastfeed you can't hand your baby off for someone else to take care of. After my DH's niece was born she was with her grandparents as much as she was with her parents, who went on trips and went out to eat instead of spending time with their only child.

I don't think this is that uncommon, either, sadly enough.

I do know there are women who can't breastfeed or aren't informed about the benefits of breastfeeding or who don't have the support to breastfeed. But my SIL's show that some women just don't want to bother.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by Viola

A couple of years ago there was an article in the newspaper about how publishing reports about the good effects of breastfeeding makes mothers who can't breastfeed feel guilty. The article questioned whether publishing reports about the benefits of breastfeeding did more harm than good.

See, I feel like moms who don't breastfeed and then feel guilty...maybe it's a normal reaction to anything you read about your child. But I think they should feel ripped off, not guilty. Breastfeeding has a lot of benefits for moms, not only for babies.

When I was pregnant, a very earthy crunchy friend of mine asserted bizarrely that women shouldn't be made to feel guilty if they didn't or couldn't breastfeed. It was bizarre because she is not opposed to using guilt to get people to do anything else that's good for their health! I pointed out to her that there was a lot of evidence that breastfeeding has preventative effects against breast cancer.

It's kind of like saying, "You shouldn't make people feel guilty for not exercising." Yes, it feels bad if you can't exercise because you have no time, or because you have an injury. But you shouldn't feel guilty that you have an injury that is preventing you from exercising, right? It's not that you are a bad person if you don't do things that are good for your health, it's that it's bad for you not to do them. Though I guess people do feel guilty about stuff like that.

Ah me.

[ZeldasMom]

I don't have a problem with the op sharing that she read this book and giving her 2 cents on it. I periodically torture myself a little by listening to someone I really disgree with like Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, or James Dobson. I like to hear what the other side is saying and what the world is like in their eyes. I think it helps with strategizing how to respond to viewpoints I personally have difficulty relating to.

Some posters have said they think lactivists can be too harsh. I hear what they're saying. My opinion on this is that advocacy efforts need all kinds of voices, and it's okay if some of them are shrill.

I love to look at/read about strategies that other activist groups have employed. I think we can learn from what has worked for other causes. I have kind of an oppostitional streak, so I have a warm place in my heart for groups that are in your face (in a clever way) like ACT UP (AIDS policy), the Guerilla Girls www.guerrillagirls.com, and ADAPT (this is a disability rights group--one of their actions was to get out of their wheelchairs and crawl up the steps to the capital to protest its inaccessibility and advocate for the passing of the ADA--that image was so powerful it makes my eyes well up everytime I think of it).

That said, a lot of my professional work-life has involved advocacy and I have to say, the longer I do it, the more I lean toward the "you win more flies with honey" kind of approach.

I think it comes down to fitting the advocacy strategy with the situation. I don't think you can really make a blanket statement that one way of going about it is right.

[mommytolittlelilly]

I also don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the original post being in this forum. I think it's only helpful to get feedback for any given cause, so that that movement might learn and grow. It seems to me that defensiveness can run both ways here, really. I also think it bears repeating that facts can be more instructive/useful depending on how and when they're delivered.

Also, I have to say in the early months when I was BF my baby, I admit that I felt more judgmental about those moms who gave up or just didn't try then I do now. That's because I think those moms might be a lot better than me at some other important area of parenting, such as, getting out in a social setting with their baby/child and playing with other kids and moms.

[annettemarie]

I don't think anyone on this post questioned it being in this forum. Several of us asked the OP to clarify her intent. Which she didn't.

[HerthElde]

I'm absolutely baffled by this discussion.

Noone can *make* another person feel guilty. People feel guilty because they have chosen or been forced to do something that they don't feel was the best thing to do, whether they know it at the time or find out later that another choice would have been better. People can influence other's actions, thereby causing that person to feel guilty. People can inform someone (or misinform them) thereby causing that person to feel guilt about choices they made based on other information, but you can't force someone to feel guilty!

I feel guilty that my dd got a vitamin K shot when she was born. I didn't have all of the information at the time that I have now. But I don't blame my info sources for my guilt. If I was going to blame anyone, it would be the sources of misinformation I had when I made my decision. But they didn't make me feel guilty - they only influenced my actions in such a way that I made a choice that I feel guilty about. They didn't make me feel guilty, just influenced a decision that I feel guilty about.

Maybe a more useful book would be about taking responsibility for one's own feelings, and realizing that it's one's own internal dialogue that makes one feel guilt.

ETA-it's a "shoot the messenger" type of situation. And yes, I do understand that some BF advocates throw blame around, and might make others think about things that in turn make them feel guilty. But if the basic message wasn't believed, and if the mama didn't have an internal conflict about it (or any other mama issue), she wouldn't feel guilt. Angry, maybe. Annoyed, maybe. Upset, maybe. But not guilt. Guilt comes from within.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by ZeldasMom

I don't have a problem with the op sharing that she read this book and giving her 2 cents on it. I periodically torture myself a little by listening to someone I really disgree with like Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, or James Dobson. I like to hear what the other side is saying and what the world is like in their eyes. I think it helps with strategizing how to respond to viewpoints I personally have difficulty relating to.

:LOL Well, you have a point there.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by captain optimism

It's kind of like saying, "You shouldn't make people feel guilty for not exercising." Yes, it feels bad if you can't exercise because you have no time, or because you have an injury. But you shouldn't feel guilty that you have an injury that is preventing you from exercising, right? It's not that you are a bad person if you don't do things that are good for your health, it's that it's bad for you not to do them. Though I guess people do feel guilty about stuff like that.

I use that analogy myself. And I do feel guilty for not exercising. When I see people out riding their bikes or walking/running, if I haven't exercised for the day I feel really restless and upset because it is hanging over my head.

The thing with breastfeeding is that it isn't just about you so I think people are a lot more sensitive about it. Exercising isn't either, really, since you should try and be healthy for your family. But the fact that breastfeeding can be challenging coupled with the fact that it can be a very touchy thing if you indicate that a mom isn't doing all she can for her child, means that breastfeeding advocacy is often seen in a negative light. I think that those with a vested interest in making sure formula has a big market share do all they can to sabotage advocacy and paint it in a bad light.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by HerthElde

People can influence other's actions, thereby causing that person to feel guilty. People can inform someone (or misinform them) thereby causing that person to feel guilt about choices they made based on other information, but you can't force someone to feel guilty

A lot of what you’re saying doesn’t make sense to me…we’re even :LOL

You feel it’s possible to “cause” a person to feel guilt but you can’t force? What’s the difference?

Originally Posted by HerthElde

I feel guilty that my dd got a vitamin K shot when she was born. I didn't have all of the information at the time that I have now. But I don't blame my info sources for my guilt. If I was going to blame anyone, it would be the sources of misinformation I had when I made my decision. But they didn't make me feel guilty - they only influenced my actions in such a way that I made a choice that I feel guilty about.

You don’t blame the info sources but if you were gong to blame anyone it would be the source of the misinformation?

But, as I read that again, something is starting to make sense but I think I need you to explain more.

Originally Posted by HerthElde

They didn't make me feel guilty, just influenced a decision that I feel guilty about.

You and I may well agree. It’s just that I often hear guilt discussed and that one emotion seems way out of proportion to the other emotions that I imagine are going on for parents.

If I were given bad information, I would be angry or sad depending on the motivation or the person who gave me the info. So, these doctors (or whoever) would have caused me to feel anger but not forced me? Yes, I get that. We do have ultimate control over our emotions. I can let go of anger just like someone can let go of guilt. I get that…did I work it out right?

What about when we, as fellow mothers, tell someone they “should” feel guilty, angry, sad…?

What I’m saying (to clarify because I seem to have baffled you) is that often, guilt, doesn’t seem like the most accurate label for the emotion(S!) that someone might feel. I think that we, ourselves, mislabel our emotions as guilt and I think we do it to others as well.

THe article I linked (which I LOVE) talks about this.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I’ll share a personal situation to help clarify what I mean.

I weaned DC at 18 months. At the time, I didn’t have support for BFing. I had moved internationally and was stressed, tired and intimidated. I was out of control and lost. I did not know about MDC and I had limited contact with my “AP” family and friends.

I do feel guilty for weaning her. But, the largest emotion I feel is regret. I simply regret it. I’m a little sad and a little humbled. Part of me is thankful for the lesson and perspective. Acknowledging *all* these emotions is what helped me make the best of a bad situation.

I talk about guilt because, IME, guilt is a silencing emotion and, alone, is quite damaging.

I hope that will shed some light onto what I mean.

[HerthElde]

Ugh, I just lost my whole post. I always take that as a sign I'm being too wordy :LOL, so I'll try to be more concise.

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

You feel it’s possible to “cause” a person to feel guilt but you can’t force? What’s the difference?

No, that's not what I mean. What I mean is that you can influence someone's actions, and if they later realize that those actions go against their beliefs, they may feel guilty. You don't cause them to feel guilt, but you can cause them to do something they might later feel guilty about.

You don’t blame the info sources but if you were gong to blame anyone it would be the source of the misinformation?

I don't mean they made me feel guilty, just caused actions that I feel guilty about. I don't actually blame them, because I take responsibility for my own actions - I basically said that to illustrate that the information sources that made me wish I hadn't had them give her the shot don't make me feel guilty - the fact that I did something I regret is what makes me feel guilty. (hope that makes sense)

If I were given bad information, I would be angry or sad depending on the motivation or the person who gave me the info. So, these doctors (or whoever) would have caused me to feel anger but not forced me? Yes, I get that. We do have ultimate control over our emotions. I can let go of anger just like someone can let go of guilt. I get that…did I work it out right?

I'm really not making a distinction between cause and force. I just truly do not believe that someone can feel guilt without failing to live up to their own ideals, whatever those may be.

What about when we, as fellow mothers, tell someone they “should” feel guilty, angry, sad…?

Well, that's just bad manners, and self-righteous, and we shouldn't to that. But just because someone says to me "you're wrong, you should feel guilty", it isn't going to make me feel guilty.

If someone came up to me and said "you shouldn't wear those red shoes, red is the color of evil", and I believed them in my heart of hearts, I would likely feel guilty about it. But if I disagreed, I'd probably be annoyed, but I wouldn't feel guilt. Or if they said "you should really spank your child", I'd be incredibly irritated, but I wouldn't feel guilty that I didn't spank my child. However, if someone said "you shouldn't give a one year old an ice cream cone", I probably would feel guilty if that's what I had done, because I actually agree with them, kwim?

Take the exercise example above. If you see someone on a bike, you (well the pp) may feel guilty that you're not riding your bike. But is it the biker that's making you feel guilty, or is it the fact that you think you should be riding your bike?

I hope this is a bit clearer.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by HerthElde

I don't mean they made me feel guilty, just caused actions that I feel guilty about. I don't actually blame them, because I take responsibility for my own actions - I basically said that to illustrate that the information sources that made me wish I hadn't had them give her the shot don't make me feel guilty - the fact that I did something I regret is what makes me feel guilty. (hope that makes sense)

Makes sense, I guess. My feeling though is that the source of misinformation is getting off pretty easy.


I guess it depends on what you do with this way of thinking. It think it’s great that a person owns their choices and emotions so long as that doesn’t remove accountability from mass corruption and a weak perverted society.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by HerthElde

If someone came up to me and said "you shouldn't wear those red shoes, red is the color of evil", and I believed them in my heart of hearts, I would likely feel guilty about it. But if I disagreed, I'd probably be annoyed, but I wouldn't feel guilt.

I, respectfully, disagree. I think we have a rather emotionally confused society. I think it’s entirely possible for society to create guilt where it need not be. Almost every mother I know IRL has experienced this.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

So, thinking more about this, I realized that I may not have a good enough knowledge of “what guilt is” to be discussing this:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...50#post3181150

[loveharps]

WOW

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. (It made me feel good about hiding that book when I saw I saw it our local library :LOL )

I feel guilty for giving my ds a bottle.
He was 11.5 months and he went on a nursing strike. I didn't know about nursing strikes at the time, so I thought he was weaning himself, so I gave him a bottle.

I feel guilty because now I know the facts, I wish I had persevered.
Breastfeeding advocates don't make me feel guilty, I make me feel guilty.
I feel guilty that I hadn't informed myself enough, I feel guilty that I gave my son that crap.

I am now 100% pro-breastfeeding activism. Yes, maybe bottlefeeders will feel guilty, but the facts need to get out there.

I am lucky enough to live in a country where BF isn't such a "taboo" subject, but the FF culture is getting stronger here. Luckily it is illegal for formula companies to advertise,(they are, however, allowed to advertise 'follow-on formula') and every can on formula has to state that BM is best.
I really want to get out there and advocate BF, and to be honest, I hope I do make bottle feeders feel guilty, it might make them think about it a bit more and research a bit more, and hopefully next time round they'll have second thoughts about bottle feeding.


On the subject of men being 'breast men' beacause they were bottle fed - I have other beliefs on that. IMO, men are breast men because it is basic primal instinct. The *need* to procreate makes men attracted to things that will help them do that i.e. breasts to feed their offspring. (sorry if that didn't make sense, I'm finding it hard to put into words what I mean)


(sorry that was so long!)

[Laurel]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

What about when we, as fellow mothers, tell someone they “should” feel guilty, angry, sad…?

I'm glad that you mentioned this because it is one of my pet peeves. When I was in therapy for depression, we talked about "should statements" and how they are cognitive distortions (basically, distorted thoughts and messages we send ourselves) and how damaging they can be. I am always wary of the word "should" whether I"m saying it to myself or someone else is saying to me, when it comes to emotions. No one can tell someone else how to feel--feelings just "are".

I also am uncomfortable when people make assumptions about what others are feeling. I see that a lot, including here when we talk about "the other side". People look at someone's actions or words, and try to extrapolate from those the person's inner emotions. But in reality, they have no idea what that other person is feeling. We think about what we would be feeling if we were
in that situation, and assume that others do or should feel that same way.

[Galatea]

What's that old sawhorse?: "Guilt is a sign your values are in conflict with your actions." Guilt is an emotion that you feel on your own b/c you know deep inside you did something that you are not proud of. Of course, in our culture today (god I hate saying that but oh well), no one should have to feel bad about anything.