Alfie Kohn on "Supernanny" - Page 3

[Vermillion]

The heart of AP is trusting your own inner wisdom to form an attachment to your child, not a cookie cutter one-size-fits-all punishment and shame-based approach to parenting.

[laralou]

Can I just add that if my boss quotes Supernanny to me one more time to tell me what I am doing wrong with my children, I just might ... Ok, I won't tell you what I want to do to her...

I should add for clarification that my children work with me so she sees us interact quite a bit.

I liked the article and am grateful to have a link to send to her.

[Pigpen]

Originally Posted by Vermillion

the fact that any parent would even allow total strangers to come into their home and turn their children into performing circus animals for America’s entertainment tells me that they have absolutely NO respect for the kids. :

Thank you!!!! That's it in a nutshell! Nevermind that these parents see the need for some stranger to come in and make their children "behave". THE PARENTS BEHAVIOR SEEMS TO BE SECONDARY!!! Shouldn't it be the other way around???

[Plummeting]

The only time I ever saw Supernanny was on Oprah. They showed clips of the show and she was making the mother sit on the floor in the baby's room while the baby was CIO. That's enough information right there to prove that she is NOT AP - nor is she leaning towards AP or even spitting in the general direction. Furthermore, I don't feel that putting kids in any kind of time out called "the naughty chair" (or corner or whatever) is particularly AP. I think even AP parents use time out sometimes, but to call it the "naughty" place? How horrible! Why not just tell the kid what a terrible monster you think they are - how "naughty" they are? Not nice! Not nice at all!

[Proudly AP]

Originally Posted by Richelle

They showed clips of the show and she was making the mother sit on the floor in the baby's room while the baby was CIO. That's enough information right there to prove that she is NOT AP - nor is she leaning towards AP or even spitting in the general direction. Furthermore, I don't feel that putting kids in any kind of time out called "the naughty chair" (or corner or whatever) is particularly AP. I think even AP parents use time out sometimes, but to call it the "naughty" place? How horrible! Why not just tell the kid what a terrible monster you think they are - how "naughty" they are? Not nice! Not nice at all!

i haven't watched the show ever, but the above info (along with alfie's makes me cringe and want to cry for the children).

my mother must have watched the episode about the mom who no longer wanted to lay with her dd to help her to sleep, 'cause i got ranted at (no kidding!) about how good the super nanny is, and how all you need is structure and routine (i was also read the riot act about my 3 year-old dd still wearing diapers and resisting using the toilet!)


grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

this sounds SO disrespectful and i totally agree with the point about how terrible a thing it is to put these children on air. i hadn't considered that point, but you can bet they're receiving the message that the issues in their homes are *their* fault. what a terrible, terrible blow to a child's developing self-esteem.

i have bookmarked the link and will consider sending it to my mother, should she again feel the need to tell me how i need to parent my children.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

"These programs elevate viewer manipulation to an art form."

Couldn't agree more! Only his take is gives more credit to the show for being skilled manipulators...I think they get a little help from their audience...

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

If she's AP, I am underweight.

You must be pretty skinny!

Originally Posted by annettemarie

The heart of AP is trusting your own inner wisdom to form an attachment to your child, not a cookie cutter one-size-fits-all punishment and shame-based approach to parenting.

These parents are repeating bad parenting patterns that they have been taught in thei childhoods. They quite obviously were not taught to trust their instincts. If they did, the show would not exist.

Originally Posted by annettemarie

According to Jolly Jo-Jo, holding a baby "too much" is wrong. Co-sleeping is wrong. This is not AP.

I don't believe that is exactly what was meant. Co-sleeping that causes maritial problems is not AP. Holding a baby to prevent them from having a temper tantrum after being asked to stop.....hitting, swearing, spitting....is not necessarily AP either. As stated in Dr Sears Attachment Parenting book.....if you resent it, change it. Not wanting to co-sleep does not make you anti AP if you prefer to sleep with just your partner. The families that I have seen facing sleeping issues chose not to co-sleep and wanted a loving way to get their children to bed. Anytime you change a schedule/routine on children, you risk tears and tantrums.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

But, AngelBee, how do you feel about the first part of the article? The suggestion that the vast majority of this is editing? It is an absolute distortion of the truth. For me, it doesn’t even go beyond that.

[mamakay]

I see what Angelbee is saying and what everyone else is saying.
I don't care how much editing was done. These families are in desperate need of help.
And Supernanny puts most of the emphasis on what the parents are doing wrong (and the producers do find families where there is no consistancy and a tantrum is always fixed by the parents, after ignoring the underlying need, eventually "cave" and do whatever it takes to end the tantrum.
And at least 60% of what she tells parents to do is very AP.
But the remaining 40% is so awful I can't help but hate her.
Between the "naughty chair/corner" and her sickening CIO ideas, I see her as a another force in modern thinking that condones emotional neglect of children.
Her CIO stuff is the absolute worst, though.
She really does not have any feeling for a crying baby that wants his mommy.
Her "Sit in the room but don't respond" technique is one of the most weird, abusive concepts I've ever heard of.
But a lot of the time she surprises me by actually giving good, sound, loving and helpful advice.
(My very mainstream best friend and I record the show and discuss/debate it every week.)

What makes me really sad about the whole phenomenon is how easy it probably is to watch the show and implement the bad, abusive ideas, and not even see, much less practice, the good ones.
A naughty chair is exciting and easy...finding out and providing what your child needs is difficult.
The bad outshines the good...both in critical observation of the show, and, I'd guess, in emulation of it.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by mamakay

I don't care how much editing was done. These families are in desperate need of help.

How do you know?


I was thinking more about the idea that this show helps families and I don’t buy it. That is *not* the motivation for this show and I think it does more damage than good for parenting in our culture.

This show(s) gives the impression that parents are incompetent and that all problems with raising kids can be easily solved.

The show is entertainment for some and that's all.

[mamakay]

ITA that the show does a lot more harm than good.
But the families are "extreme".
The parents openly admit that they are totally inconsistant, and will endure a freaking out kid for a while, and then reward the freakout with extravagent measures to end the fit.
A lot of what Supernanny does is address problems before they happen (in a good way...like, "I know you want to limit soda...offer water"...and it turns out the kid was thirsty).
But, yes, I agree the bad eclipses the good.
The naughty chair thing is what parents talk about the next day at work. Not the thirsty kid.

[monkey's mom]

Great article!

I watch these shows all the time. Must be the voyeur and sociologist in me. :LOL

But, to say that SuperNanny is AP is the biggest stretch of what *most* people generally agree AP to be! Someone who doesn't consider a child's emotional needs in the vast majority of situations has taken another path entirely.

All sorts of changes can occur in children's lives (being separated from parents, weaning, ending co-sleeping, etc.). But, there are loving and considerate ways of preparing a child and then helping them transition through these changes and then there are ways of shaming and abandoning the child. SuperNanny *consistantly* uses the latter.

Children left to sob themselves to sleep after having a parent or pacifier or whatever help them sleep is not gentle, it is not AP--it's just cruel. The parents are routinely comforted during these episodes. Too bad the children aren't afforded the same treatment.

[ebethmom]

I've only seen one show - the episode where the two little boys were hitting and shouting at their Mom, the Dad yelled a lot, and the Mom tried her darndest to ignore her sons.

It aired at a time when I needed to talk to dh about HIS yelling and negativity. So that show helped us talk about our own issues.

Off to read the article now on my s . . .l. . . o. . .w. . . computer.

[UUMom]

I heart Kohn.

Ftr, it's the dumbing down of the entire western world...nearly. The Nanny is an import show.

[cyclemama]

I've seen maybe five or six episodes of Supernanny. I don't agree with a lot of her techniques (CIO, naughty corner, etc.). However, I believe many previous posters, and Kohn, and are giving Supernanny short shrift when they say she only provides quick fixes and ignores underlying causes of the family's dysfunction and chaos. In many of the episodes I've seen, Supernanny has indeed attempted to address big issues, especially uninvolved fathers who need to step up to the plate and take on some parenting and household responsibilities, and crazy work-at-home arrangements that leave the children with little or no undivided attention throughout the day. For example, I've seen Supernanny:

-- Tell a father that it is totally unreasonable for him to come home from work and spend the rest of the evening watching TV while his exhausted wife takes on all the evening parenting duties.

-- Show a father how to get down on the floor and actually play with his kids, rather than simply supervising them from afar.

-- Convince a work-at-home mom that she needs to turn off the telephone for a couple hours each afternoon so that she can give her children some undivided attention, instead of trying to "manage" her children while answering the telephone all day for the couple's plumbing business.

-- Suggest to a couple that they should consider hiring a "daddy's helper" to assist the work-at-home father with the kids for a couple mornings per week so the kids could get more of the attention they needed (both from the helper and from the father, who'd later be able to give more attention since he would be able to get some work done while the helper was present).

-- Try to convince a mother that she wasn't listening to or validating the feelings of her oldest child, but rather, was unfairly blaming him for the chaos in the house that was actually caused by his unruly younger siblings.

-- Convince a couple that the father could actually take care of the kids by himself for an hour or so every Saturday so the exhausted mother could have at least a short weekly break (and so the father could learn how to become a more active parent).

-- Convince a father that he could actually load the dishwasher instead of leaving all the chores for his already overburdened spouse.

Of course, it is unclear how successful Supernanny's efforts really were, since, as pointed out by many, creative editing is at play. However, I believe it is unfair to say that she doesn't even try to address big issues that affect the family as a whole.


Cylcemama -- Mother to Jasper (3) and Elliot (1)

[annettemarie]

I feel about Supernanny the same way I feel about Ezzo, the what to expect books, and Parents magazine. Sure, there may be one or two good ideas in there, but look at all the crap you have to wade through to get to it. Why bother, when there are perfectly good resources out there with all the good info minus the crap?

[sebarnes]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

I feel about Supernanny the same way I feel about Ezzo, the what to expect books, and Parents magazine. Sure, there may be one or two good ideas in there, but look at all the crap you have to wade through to get to it. Why bother, when there are perfectly good resources out there with all the good info minus the crap?

:

[runes]

I feel about Supernanny the same way I feel about Ezzo, the what to expect books, and Parents magazine. Sure, there may be one or two good ideas in there, but look at all the crap you have to wade through to get to it. Why bother, when there are perfectly good resources out there with all the good info minus the crap?

Not just hands clapping...where's the standing ovation smilie when you need it? :LOL

We here on this board, imho, put a lot more thought into what we read/hear/see on tv than the majority of people out there. We know how to sift through the crap and extrapolate the little gems of wisdom from the enormous turds of ignorance.

If someone put out a show that really truly went by AP principles, it would probably cause a huge uproar in the mainstream. What? RESPECT our children? Imagine that. What a revolutionary concept!

[Piglet68]

AP isn't about WHAT you do, so much as why you do it.

Sure, Supernanny says not to yell at kids, but is it because she respects them as little people with rights, or is it because yelling just isn't effective at getting the kid of response they're looking for? I find it really hard to understand how someone can feel that yelling is disrespectful, but it's okay to let the child bawl their eyes out wanting mommy, and have mommy sit there like a statue ignoring them. I saw the Oprah version where that's what she made a mom do, while her 2 year old screamed for her in the dark, and mommy sat there right beside his crib staring at the floor. It made me so sad, angry, and sick all at the same time.

The things she does may "seem" to be AP, but they are not. Her warnings to "never let your kids in your bed, never lie down with them to get them to bed" are so ignorant. UGH!!

Anyways, like annettemarie said, there are much better sources of AP parenting than the few tidbits she tosses out there amongst all the garbage.

[m0mmaw0lf]

This may seem like a dumb question but for those of you who feel the "naughty corner" is a bad idea, why do you feel that way? How do you think it is different than a "time out" and do you think "time outs" are a bad idea too? If so, then what do you do instead?

Explaining before and after why the punishment is being issued (with the "naughty corner") always seemed like a good idea to me. But I'm always interested in how other parents - particularly AP parents - deal with "discipline." And how maybe I could do it better. So I'm just curious.