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the issue of infant carseats in our country - Page 9

post #161 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by cortsmommy
Well babies don't sit in car seats in limos or in taxis or on buses either. I think the carseat thing is yes a safety precaution and yes it does save lives but we don't all wreck everyday.
I quoted you because I have ridden in a taxi with my child in a car seat. Yeah, it was inconvenient, but I thought it the safest way to travel with a baby. Taxis and limos wreck too.

ETA: I have seen some taxis with something to this effect written on the side: "All passengers must be in seatbelts or age appropriate safety restraints."
post #162 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
Yes, I do think it's stupid to put your baby in a 2-, 3-, or 4-ton hunk of hurtling metal and not restrain them.
And I think it's stupid to put a baby in a crib where they can DIE due to lack of human contact. In general, I am not allowed to USE the word stupid to describe any of the practices I feel are, well STUPID.

So why is it okay for you to call my very well thought out (I DO NOT CIO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE) practice STUPID just because you don't happen to agree. I think I know how to assess a risk, and I am happy with my choice.

As the original poster suggested, has it occurred to you that you are in the grips of an extreme paranoia engineered by government agencies who could care less if your baby suffocates in a crib, or drops dead of a heart attack at 45 because you decided to formula feed and contribute to obesity and all kinds of other health problems?

If I called any of those things STUPID, the thread would be deleted.
post #163 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaisyRose

As the original poster suggested, has it occurred to you that you are in the grips of an extreme paranoia engineered by government agencies who could care less if your baby suffocates in a crib, or drops dead of a heart attack at 45 because you decided to formula feed and contribute to obesity and all kinds of other health problems?
I'd rather be in the grips of paranoia that keeps my child safe than in the grips of delusion that denies the chance of death.

post #164 of 188
Ok, but daisy rose, you are comparning apples to anvils. First off, the thread isn't about whether or not you're stupid if you put your kid in a crib, secondly, I think the grand majority of people here co-sleep--so who exactly are you preaching to??
I have the distinct feeling your purpose is to stir the pot here so I'm going into this with a helmet on.
The corelations your speakin of are NOT accurate. Even the MOST AP research simply doesn't back up the stuff you're saying. However, ALL research, AP, Mainstream or Martian backs up the absolute risks of having a child unrestrained in a moving automobile.
I responded to 911 calls for a number of years. I saw a total of 17 dead children. 14 of them were in car accidents, 1 was in a fire (during the day, so please don't tell me co-sleeping would have saved her life) 1 was kicked in the head by a horse and one believe it or not died because her mother didn't know she was slowly poisoning her because she was breastfeeding her while on medication--actually, there was an inquest, she did know, the pharacist told her and so did her doctor-she thought she knew better. I've never responded to baby who died in a crib either by SIDs or especially who died because of lack of human contact.
Here's what I see in the post you just left--it's ok to throw paranoia at people who don't co-sleep or breast feed--because telling me my baby will die if I put him in a crib--or telling me (a ff btw--all by necessity) that my baby will surely die because of that bottle I stick in her mouth--that's all fine and good but those preachy car seat freaks who have scraped little dead babies off windshields, roads and dashboards, those peoplle are just being ridiculous and preachy.
As I asked someone else, and if you feel as strongly about all this as you are saying here and if you're not just trying to stir the pot--How will you feel if you remove your child (without bothering to pull over--you see my point is you don't have to CIO in a carseat--just pull over) How will you feel if because you couldn't stand to hear her cry, you never again hear her cry-because she's dead?
How will you feel while picking out the tiny coffin--I ask this honestly--will it be ok because at least you never let that child CIO??

These are simple questions and I would think if you feel strongly about what you're saying you should have no trouble answering.

Why do I preach, because still now, so many years later I can see in my mind the face of every baby I ever saw dead. I can see the look of pain and anguish on their parents face and worse, I don't do what I did anymore, because the last baby I saw dead almost landed me with an assault charge because I punched the mother, who cared enough about her life to be wearing a seatbelt--it's unfortunate she didn't care enough about her sons life. Rescue workers quit left, right and centre over this, that's how common it is. You don't even have to get in an accident, you just have to break really hard one time for that baby to be pulled out of your arms and die when he meets whatevery solid object it is that he comes in contact with.
post #165 of 188
I'm about as militant a breastfeeder and co-sleeper as one can be but I am REALLY failing to understand the comparison here. Formula feeding is NOTHING like not using a carseat, it's not a workable analogy. Crib use is not proven to be unsafe like unrestrained children are. It's ludicrous to compare them.

I don't believe there is some kind of government conspiracy in action, designed to keep our babies safe in moving vehicles. I don't believe there is conspiracy at play about crib use, either. Or bike helmets, or life preservers, etc...
post #166 of 188
Cross posted with Shannon... who I now think I may be in love with.
post #167 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaisyRose
I think this gets at the heart of the matter. People have all kinds of "excuses" for why they can't breastfeed, why they can't so-sleep, why CIO and spanking and daycare is good for their family, why they can't carry their children and blah blah blah ad infinitum.

The solutions to those problems take more than just a chunk of money.

But car seats are easy. Strap the kid in, end of story. Feel fully righteous, even though the parent in question has failed to do just about every other thing (bf, co-sleep, GD, etc) that they might have done to prevent harm coming to their child.

It's easy to focus on car seats because there are all kinds of HORROR gasp HORROR stories.

But lord almighty forbid we should talk about the GASP horror GASP of cribs. And yes, babies DO die in cribs. It's called SIDS. Co-sleeping babies have as much protection from death as babies who are in car seats, but somehow, that is simply a "parent's choice".

Using a car seat is an easy choice, and therefore people jump on the bandwagon and proclaim every person who puts their infant's immediate needs over the slight statistical risk of a crash...what was the word a previous poster used? Oh yeah... stupid.

And that's okay?

Are we allowed to call formula feeders stupid? People who refuse to co-sleep? Can we call them stupid? How about spankers? Or CIOers? All of these people take a significant risk that they will cause their child harm, but, oh, that's just a choice.

It's nonsense. The hyperbole doesn't change the fact that there are LOTS of difficult choices that parents have to make, and taking a hysterical infant out of car seat to breastfeed in the back seat is NO WORSE than feeding formula, or using CIO or spanking or using a crib.

They're all "choices" and if we're going to respect moms who use formula, then we also have to respect moms who refuse to practice ANY KIND of CIO, whether it's in a car or a crib.
EXACTLY!!!

EXACTLY!!!

EXACTLY!!!!

I sooo love you right now!!! lol. That's my point. My point is that I have observed, as an "outsider" coming into this country, that people here, if they agree on calling someone stupid (people that don't use carseats) then that's ok, but when you call them stupid for soemthing that THEY do, they get all "oh, don't judge me, please"

I gotta tell ya, I don't care what people say, I'm not letting my child cry ANYWHERE. don't people get that HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND what a carseat is?? He feels ignored and abandoned ANYWHERE he is that his cries are not answered or are ignored. what makes moms here think "oh, ok, the carseat is ok for a crying place but not the crib". I'm not saying you should take your kid out of the carseat. My child is not left to cry. Either I stop the car or nurse him in the back, that's my business and no one else's but CIO doesn't just happen at night and in cribs. I find that so hypocritical.
post #168 of 188
Well, OK, but then it's not really the carseat you have an issue with, is it? I made this point earlier: The carseat is not cruel, taking them somewhere in it is what is "cruel."
post #169 of 188
Thread Starter 
also, another point that daisy made above. why do you feel that you can group together and call this other group of people stupid (the ones that don't use carseats all the time and that feel they perhaps, wouldn't let their kids to starve in the carseat like some of you have said you would do) why is it that we allow that, when it is not allowed to say that circumcisers are stupid, for example? or ff'ing by choice moms, or CIO'ers?
post #170 of 188
Quote:
Either I stop the car or nurse him in the back, that's my business and no one else's.
It is the business of the EMT's who have to clean up the accident, the medical professionals who have to try and save the baby's life and are haunted by nightmares if they don't.
post #171 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtwice
It is the business of the EMT's who have to clean up the accident, the medical professionals who have to try and save the baby's life and are haunted by nightmares if they don't.
I don't think this is fair. My children will share classrooms with circumcised, CIO, formula fed babies and will have to witness their emotional traumas. We also share a society with children that have been abused, and yes we're going to have to "clean up" for them too. does that give me the right to call up their moms and tell them to stop being stupid and start doing things MY way? no.
post #172 of 188
Ok, Carmen, you said a ways back that you wanted to know the reasons that car seat safety has been made such a big deal of. You said you weren't asking if people believe they should be able to take a child out of the seat when it's crying. So a bunch of us did go into the reasons we think car seat use is a bigger deal in our culture than say breast feeding or circing--many of answered with detailed well thought out answers. I'm finding it odd that in light of your defensive post a while back telling us what you "really wanted to know" that the only responses you "agree" with are those people who say "damn right, I risk my childs life!! No questions!!" So you're saying in one post what you want from people and when people respond to you with the answers to what "your actual question" is you ignore them but come on out to pat the back of every respondant who says they have no trouble pulling their child out of a car seat in a moving hunk of metal. This last poster didn't even address your actual question--at least not anymore than the rest of us did when we answered your question with opinions that didn't agree with yours--so let me know here what it is you want, cause I'm getting the feeling that waht you in fact want is a list of people who will pat your back and say, "yeah, it's ok to pull the kid out of his car seat--I do it too"

I do find it funny though that not one of our people who thinks it's cruel not to leave a child safely buckled in has answered my questions on how you would feel if you never again hear that child cry--because of your "choice"

You know, my neighbors child was screaming blue murder yesterday because her father wouldn't let her crawl into the paddock with the horses--was it cruel of him to let her cry or if he was a good father would he have let her crawl into a paddock with a bunch of strange horses???
post #173 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon0218
Ok, Carmen, you said a ways back that you wanted to know the reasons that car seat safety has been made such a big deal of. You said you weren't asking if people believe they should be able to take a child out of the seat when it's crying. So a bunch of us did go into the reasons we think car seat use is a bigger deal in our culture than say breast feeding or circing--many of answered with detailed well thought out answers. I'm finding it odd that in light of your defensive post a while back telling us what you "really wanted to know" that the only responses you "agree" with are those people who say "damn right, I risk my childs life!! No questions!!" So you're saying in one post what you want from people and when people respond to you with the answers to what "your actual question" is you ignore them but come on out to pat the back of every respondant who says they have no trouble pulling their child out of a car seat in a moving hunk of metal. This last poster didn't even address your actual question--at least not anymore than the rest of us did when we answered your question with opinions that didn't agree with yours--so let me know here what it is you want, cause I'm getting the feeling that waht you in fact want is a list of people who will pat your back and say, "yeah, it's ok to pull the kid out of his car seat--I do it too"

I do find it funny though that not one of our people who thinks it's cruel not to leave a child safely buckled in has answered my questions on how you would feel if you never again hear that child cry--because of your "choice"

You know, my neighbors child was screaming blue murder yesterday because her father wouldn't let her crawl into the paddock with the horses--was it cruel of him to let her cry or if he was a good father would he have let her crawl into a paddock with a bunch of strange horses???
No, actually I did start this thread thinking of the reasons why carseats are so important. But after 8 pages of "my niece was driving without a carseat and.." I feel I should be able to react to these comments.

ETA- I'm on YOUR side, I believe that carseats are lifesaving, I really do. What I don't get is how as a society we can be so hypocritical and cut off penises so "he will look like daddy" and then call a person nursing her baby in the back seat a child abuser. It's just twisted!!!!
post #174 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
I don't think this is fair. My children will share classrooms with circumcised, CIO, formula fed babies and will have to witness their emotional traumas. We also share a society with children that have been abused, and yes we're going to have to "clean up" for them too. does that give me the right to call up their moms and tell them to stop being stupid and start doing things MY way? no.

Who called you up??? Are your children staring at the penis's of the other children in his/her class?? Is it bad that you may have to clean up the mess of a child who survived child abuse, but it's no big deal that I may have to clean up the mess when you kill repeatedly risk your child's life??? Or is ok because at least your form of child abuse has a better chance of actually killing the child--after all, then after the initial PITA it's all over--God knows that the people who deal with it every freaking day don't have nightmares, don't require councelling.
There is a very basic difference--do police officers have the right to tell you to keep your child in a car seat--damn right they do--it's the law, that simple, they also have a right to tell you can't rob banks or shoot people in the head, if you feel so strongly that children who are circ'd are abused messes that society will have to clean up after for the rest of their life, lobby to change the law, but frankly, my dh is circ'd, after reading up on it we wouldn't have done it if Molly was a boy, but my dh is an upstanding member of society who contributes and is not a burden on our community--and he never has been. I was formula fed, I have also never been a burden on my community or anyone elses, in fact I've done more hard work as a volunteer than most people do. I've saved lives, many of them, I don't do it anymore because the people who say things like "I can take my kid out of a car seat and risk his life because afterall, uncle sam says its still ok to feed formula and circ--when he makes those things illegal, I'll respect the laws."

You have NO IDEA what so-ever what is done to the people who come to your aid. It changes our lives every single day. Usually not for the better. We burn out and we quit. Because the anger eats away at us that people don't learn this simple lesson until after their child is DEAD!!!! not obese, not missing his foreskin, not insecure because his parents didn't respond quickly enough to his needs but DEAD--never to be hugged, fed, touched, or cried with again.
If you can honestly compare the damage of circing and not breast feeding with the damage of a dead child that would be not only alive but healthy and happy had his parents just taken the time to pull over to a safe spot. No your child doesn't know what a car seat is--but you can talk to him while you locate a safe spot to pull over--if you're sitting on the toilet and baby starts to cry do you immediately jump up and just piss all over the floor to get to your child who is crying in a safe place or do you finish peeing and call to him from the bathroom to tell him he's ok and you'll be with him in a matter of minutes.

Here's what I hope for you, I sincerely hope with all my heart that the day you need someone to help your child, for whatever reason, I hope that all the good ones aren't burnt out and someone is available to help you, cause for me and many of my friends, we're too busy in councelling to help another parent who could have prevented a tradgedy but they were too flipping busy or lazy to pull off the road to a safe place.

Nobody here is saying to leave your child to cry, everyone is giving extremely feasable options to leaving your child to cry that are for the most part safe.

Sorry, you just have no idea what you are comparing because you've never seen it, I pray you never have to.
post #175 of 188
the issue of infant carseats in our country

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(without it getting heated, please, I really have questions and I'd like to talk about them)

This is the thing.. I was talking to a friend the other day, she is from South America (as most of you know, me too) and she has a 2 month old baby. We were at a christening together for a friend's baby (we have that friend in common) and she was asking me all these questions about breastfeeding, cloth diapering, cosleeping, etc.. and I felt that she found comfort in a lot of the things that I told her. She even told my husband and her husband (we shared a table) that I was such a "perfect mom" (yes, I said please, I feel like the worst mom in the world most days lost in my unshowered mind, sleepless body and tons of laundry) SOOOO.. I don't know how she started talking about carseats and how she doesn't ler her baby cry in the carseat while she is in the car but she also doesn't stop the car when baby is hungry. She will sit in the back of her SUV and nurse her baby, while her dh drives. I said...

"ME TOO". (yes, this is the part where your blood pressure will rise, right?)
well, I don't do this now, because my son no longer needs to nurse every hour. But dh and I did this many, many times when ds was under a year. countless times. never in the front seat, always in the back. but we did it. I admit it. so... we started talking about how the only people that WE know that do this, are not from here (from the US) and that it's like a dirty little secret because if you DARE tell anyone here they will automatically think that you're a bad, irresponsible mother.


This is from your initial post, just pages ago you swore that you never removed your child from the seat in moving vehicle. Actually you chastised someone who made a comment about it, saying you didn't know where she got that from--I'm guessing she got it from your initial post.
So what is it--are you on my side?? Do you think it's ok to take a child out of his car seat while your husband drives or don't you??
post #176 of 188
Thread Starter 
I have taken my son out of his carseat BUT I don't think it is ok. I know the risks I am taking, so I AM on your side. I do agree with there being a rule, a law, to protect our children. I don't feel as strongly as you do, because I wasn't brainwashed by a campaign, but that's perfectly ok!

and responding to your comment of your dh and yourself being fine after being circ'ed or ff'ed.. well.. I never had a carseat and I'm fine too. Not everyone that doesn't use a carseat dies, you know??

Again, I am responding to your comments are trying to show you that, like with everything else, there is another side to it.
post #177 of 188
Quote:
why is it that we allow that, when it is not allowed to say that circumcisers are stupid, for example? or ff'ing by choice moms, or CIO'ers?
I'm sorry but for one thing people here do call circers names, mutilators, etc... and for another thing HOW is it the same? Can someone please explain to me how formula feeding is the same as risking your child's life? I think we all agree it's not optimal but as Chickabiddy pointed out it is legitimate nutrition. Formula does not risk your child's life, no matter how much we all love breastmilk. Riding unrestrained DOES. CIO might be sad but it is not deadly. You keep making comparisons that don't work.
post #178 of 188
Thread Starter 
I wanted to explain my position further...

basically what I meant above is that I'm not proud of taking my son out of the carseat and I don't encourage that!! (other than that's illegal ofcourse, it's risky) but my point is that I can't stand people that have these superior ideas of what is right and wrong, and preach about it in groups like they know best, without realizing that some things they do, that they think it's right, in some parts of the world is completely twisted.
post #179 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheena
I'm sorry but for one thing people here do call circers names, mutilators, etc... and for another thing HOW is it the same? Can someone please explain to me how formula feeding is the same as risking your child's life? I think we all agree it's not optimal but as Chickabiddy pointed out it is legitimate nutrition. Formula does not risk your child's life, no matter how much we all love breastmilk. Riding unrestrained DOES. CIO might be sad but it is not deadly. You keep making comparisons that don't work.
well, according to the WHO 1 *MILLION* children die every year because of not being breastfed. how is that not risking a child's life?? Just because it doesn't kill you in 5 second, it doesn't mean it won't kill you in 20 years. AND Just because it is socially acceptable here it does NOT mean it is not life-threatening. Open your eyes!!! luchemia, ADD, and all the illnesses rates are going up? gee, I wonder why!
post #180 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
I wanted to explain my position further...

basically what I meant above is that I'm not proud of taking my son out of the carseat and I don't encourage that!! (other than that's illegal ofcourse, it's risky) but my point is that I can't stand people that have these superior ideas of what is right and wrong, and preach about it in groups like they know best, without realizing that some things they do, that they think it's right, in some parts of the world is completely twisted.

So you mean kind of like you are preaching in this group about circing when in some parts of the world the perspective is completely different???
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