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the issue of infant carseats in our country - Page 5

post #81 of 188
The only way I could see this as a cultural issue is that in North American culture, we are highly educated about traffic safety and car seats (plus they're mandatory by law, at least in my state).
well the other cultural issue is that we just spend a lot of time in cars and at high speeds.

besure, i am all in favour of carseats and seat belts. have you ever heard conservative talk radio, ther eare people there opposed to seat belts as well.
post #82 of 188
But you know what, I could care less if an adult doesn't buckle up--they're an adult, they're old enough to know the risks and choose whether or not to take the chance, no adult should make that "choice" for a child who can't speak for themselves or make their own educated choice.
post #83 of 188
I LOVE that most of the mamas on this board, care enough to ask questions and do their research regarding car seats. I LOVE that many parents are so PASSIONATE about this topic. For those mistaking passion for preaching, please...throw aside your pride just a moment and read the links, watch the crash video, remember you are not the only one driving and it may not be you that screws up and causes a wreck, but it won't matter much to you and your children while you deal with the injury or death that inevitably results. We are blessed to live in the United States of America. We are blessed for the mamas who are MDC members that can tell us in their own experience, how their lives are affected by having to help those injured in car wrecks...these mamas see the end result of how a bad decision leads to tragedy and heart break. I try to visualize myself, raising my children in another part of the world and I can't. I don't know what other mamas do, and I am thankful everyday that although it's somewhat flawed, I have the technology and opportunity to use that technology to keep my kids safe. A PP mentioned the fact that in the American culture, where mass transportation is not a priority, most everyone owns at least one car.
One can draw a distinct corrolation to the amount of people on the roadway, advancements in technology (LATCH, HUGS, stricter crash tests etc.) and the laws and rules that are in place (and changing). Red light running is at an all time high. Our society in general is much more fast paced than it used to be. There are so many causes for this. And one of the results of our faster paced society is speeding. Vehicles weren't and still aren't, designed to transport infants and children. Hence the advent and the subsequent advertisement of specially designed seats to accomodate the needs of our little people. If you do not use the seat correctly, EVERY Time you get into the vehicle with your children, you are playing russian roulette. Period. There is not judgement in that. It is a fact.
I became a Child Passenger Safety Technician to help people. I did a car seat check last week where I documented a MIS-USE RATE OF 100%. YES...that means out of 113 cars that went through my check, EVERY ONE OF THEM had something wrong with the seat itself, the installation, or both.
One of the other reasons why we see such a trend toward advocating car seats and their use is advertisement. The word is getting out via NHTSA and Safe Kids in joint effort with vehicle manufacturers and car seat manufacturers. We have realized that our priority to child passenger safety isn't for the select few. It is for all us with kids...regardless of race, income level, or hell even the type of seat. No judgement....just education. I admit to struggling when after the 50th seat I have checked, I have yet to see any car come through with even a remotely correct install. It is disheartening to say the least. I have heard almost every excuse in the book. There are those who come through my line, I help them and teach them, and they leave. I sometimes see them pull off the road a ways away and they have all jumped out and are changing back what I had just helped them with. Or there are those who charge out of their car and bark orders to you, as if they know what they are talking about and I wonder why they are there. But after all is said and done....I remember that every parent waiting in line to have their seat checked, cared enough to do so in the first place. So, no judgement....just education and facts.

CPS tech and mom to 2 sons in seats both in 5 point restraints
post #84 of 188

Carseat Safety a Must

My mother use to take us out on long car trips to feed or change us, but I hope that I never find it a neccesity. I've been a stepmother since my dss's was a baby, and we never took him out. Of course, he was bottle feed since his mother didn't want to bf.

I hear many of you talking about kids staying in car seats too long, but we have had the opposite problem. Dh's X keeps upgrading dss too early. For example, she turned him around too early and put him in a booster without a back too soon. Her excuse was b/c he was so tall for his age. Well, we e-mailed her about it and try to address it but it never did any good. What she failed to understand is that carseats are largely based on weight and he was way too light to be held securely with only an over the shoulder harness with a seat that could easily slide out from under his light little bum. (Dh is practically 7ft. so his son does run really tall and skinny.)

I agree with limos and taxis needing to provide them. I would think it important for airlines to carry them as well.
post #85 of 188
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by DaisyRose
I totally see your point.

Some mom can take her formula-fed, CIO'd, spanked, circumsized child out in her gas-guzzling SUV, and the only thing she's being judged for is whether or not the baby is in a car-seat.

I lived in Southeast Asia and India and my first child was NEVER in a car seat. Not once.

My second child has NEVER been left to cry in a car. Period. I take her out until we can safely pull over.

I am one of those people who think leaving a baby, especially a really small one, to cry in a car seat is cruel. My solution has, and continues to be, to choose a life that doesn't rely on a car. We live in a walking community and use our wagon much more than our car.
exactly. You understood my point and the point of this thread. Thank You
post #86 of 188
well, in a month we head south. i will be driving my 5 kids. the teens will be in regular seats as they are 120 and 135 pounds.

The little kids will be in safety seats. they will not be taken out while the van is moving. baby will be bottle fed while driving.

i lived in England when there was a campaign to get kids in seat belts, car seat use was a bonus. i was "abused" as a child, my mom took me home from the hospital in the 70s in a car seat. nurse yelled at her, but the floor doc yelled louder at the nurse. i couldn't imagine ever having a child out of a seat for any reason. ds2 cried for the last 1.5 hours in his seat because he wouldn't stop unless he was out.

7 months ago we went on a 2 day car trip to see family. dh was pissed that i would take the baby out. 5 passengers fussed at me. i did it anyway. i definately knew better. we would pull over sometimes. baby just wanted to be held. no excuses, i did it.

i think i had a purpose to this, but it may be lost. i sure forget.
post #87 of 188
I would not have understood very clearly your post until now. Currently, I live in Argentina and here a good percentage of children are not in carseats. The cabs, even the nice one, rarely have back seat belts that work or are even present. It is not possible to call a cab with a carseat. It is hard to even get a rental car with a carseat. I also see lots of "unsafe" carseats being used/sold.

People do not even think of the carseat issue most of the time.

I would not say that carseat usage or not makes someone a "bad" parent. Sure it makes them unsafe, misguided, etc etc but bad is stretching it IMO.

I think in the US we are just taught from the moment we are pg that a carseat is simply expected. It is on every list, the hospital checks etc. We do many things because they are the "safest" and a carseat is on that checklist for most people without thinking about it. We also (in my area at least) rarely, if ever see a child in a car without being in a carseat so we take it for granted. The educational push worked because I am not yet 30 and as a child my siblings/I were some of the first kids to be in a carseat all of the time. (in my area) Now we are shocked if people don't use them.

I think in the US we also have the majority of people using carseats so to not have/use one really stands out more than in some other areas.
post #88 of 188
Carmen and Daisy Rose, if your child is killed in a crash while you removed him from a safety seat "because it is cruel to leave him crying there"

How will you feel??? If your child dies as a result of your actions, will it be ok because at least he wasn't crying seconds before his tiny skull is shattered against the dash board?? Will it matter to you as you pick out his tiny coffin that at least you were AP enough to let your child die in the name of comfort??

I'm sorry, like I said, I've seen it, I've done CPR on too many dead little ones because their parents thought it was their right to make such a risky choice for them. It's terribly unfortunate that these babies will never grow up to have babies of their own, or never grow old enough to decide for themselves which risks they are prepared to take in their own life.

I worked rescue for 10 yrs, in that time I have seen/dealt with/tried to help 14 children who were killed in car accidents. Of those 14 children ONE was properly restrained in a car seat at the time of the accident. I was a good rescue worker, but I had to stop what I did because I just couldn't live through another dead child. I'm guessing Dallas Children may someday "burn out" because of parents who think they know better than all the research and all the professionals, or in my opinion worse than basic ignorance, choose to risk their child's life just so they won't have to make a stop or listen to that child be unhappy until it is safe to make said stop. I'd just like to know how happy you think children are when much of their little body is broken and doctors put them in body casts. I'll just ask you to think of one thing the next time you go to unbuckle your child because he's crying. How will you feel if you can't ever hear that child cry again???
post #89 of 188
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
we started talking about how the only people that WE know that do this, are not from here (from the US) and that it's like a dirty little secret because if you DARE tell anyone here they will automatically think that you're a bad, irresponsible mother.

My question is.. where does this come from? Was there some kind of a campaign in the US to encourage the use of carseats, that it made it so deep in the minds of people that "carseat=good parent, no carseat=bad parent"? I mean, I agree that carseats are SUPER important, but if I had to put that in a scale and compare it to breastfeeding (since THAT is such a choice here) I'd say carseats are less important than breastfeeding, because carseats only save you IF you have an accident.ry or required by law (not many people own cars, btw) and I never had one when I was a baby OR when my own daughter was a baby (we lived in Chile until she was 15 months)

I had my first baby in 1980. It was not law until 1983 when my second baby was born. I still would put my big girl in the back and buckle her up and nurse her brother in my lap in the passenger seat in the front. At that time only babies under eighteen months needed to be in a carseat, so she did not even need to be in a carseat.

Now the law says children up to sixty pounds need to be in a carseat which can be up to nine years of age for some; school buses should then have carseats!!

AND YES!, I nursed my baby when she cried. Why not?

I remember when the first laws were passed and some of the news items that came over the news reels at the time. I can recall one mother in remote Maine being pulled over as she breastfed; her DH was driving. The policman let them off with a warning.

There were even court cases in which the judge ruled that the baby's needs to nurse were more important than the need to be in the carseat, so some common sense and discretion was used.

However, over the years, the people who sat in those first mandatory carseats are the ones now buckling up their own children into carseats. It has been a generation now.

No one can recall what people did in the past.

I can remember STANDING in the backseat of my parents' 1957 Plymouth Belvedere. It was a two door. The backs of the front seats flipped forward, and did NOT snap back in place. So, when my Father stepped suddenly on the brake, everyone, including my two sisters and I STANDING UP in the back, leaned forward with the motion. My mom sat in the front seat, nursing my third sister.

WE ALL LIVED through the experience.

I know that the laboratory evidence with the demolition dummies showed terrible physical damage to little ones in head-on crashes, but most of the people who did the experiments lived the same way I have lived, standing up in the backseat with the front seats un-secured, leaning forward with each braking motion.

The propaganda from the police departments and from the people who do the experiments and from strong enforcement of the law kept us in line.

You should know that some of the early car seats were dangerous. There are now head supports for supporting the little heads of little ones who cannot support their own head in the early months.

Also, regarding seat belts - the first seat belts were lap belts which have been shown to cause lumbar separation in a front end collision; you must know that something was wrong with them when the manufacturers quietly changed over exclusively to shoulder harnesses.
post #90 of 188
Applejuice, I once drove home after drinking too much and I made it all the way home without killing myself or anyone else---should drunk driving also be fine because lets face it, loads of people do it and don't get hurt????

When we know better, we do better. That's why you don't see just lap belts in cars anymore--we know better and we do better. You're kinda saying that the research that discusses car seat safety is propaganda, but the research that says how bad seatbelts were 15 yrs ago is correct.
post #91 of 188
Where is the 'nay that' smilie?

Come on people! Does no one want to evolve, get smarter, make things safer? Kids used to die unnecessarily at a much higher rate than they do now- but I guess you're right why make things safer after all you lived through it right. Well the ones who didn't live through it aren't here to say anything.

The art of dying well...this was my favorite chapter in a book I read a long time ago. I don't want my children to die in some lame *ss fender bender. I want to give them them the best possible chance to die after a life lived well or at least not in some stupid, totally preventable way.

If it is so important to that your child cries be immediately gratified and you cannot nurse while you are buckled and they are in a carseat and you are not willing to feed EBM that you are willing to put their life at serious risk then it should be no sweat for you to just PULL OVER. How often is it REALLY impossible to pull over?

I hope to never have myself or my children die in some idiotic way. I wanna go in style....
post #92 of 188
Originally Posted by Kleine Hexe
Many times have I been bent and contorted into interesting positions to nurse my baby. I can imagine I must have provided entertainment and wonder at passerbys. :LOL More than one person has seen my rear end sticking up in a window or my breast hanging out.
I'd never thought of doing this till I saw Kleine Hexe do it! How stupid am I?!?!? I still remember making my husband stop about 1000X so I could feed my first when he was little.

I don't take the baby out of the carseat unless we stop, & thanks to the visual teachings of Kleine Hexe, I too entertain my fellow drivers with my contortions & bare breast!
post #93 of 188
Originally Posted by applejuice
WE ALL LIVED through the experience.
Except for those who didn't. They aren't here to have this conversation with us, so their voices aren't heard except through folks like Shannon and some others who have shared stories of seeing the broken bodies of those who didn't live through the experience.

AND YES!, I nursed my baby when she cried. Why not?
Wow, if the examples of death and distruction shared so far on this thread aren't a big enough reason "why not", then I don't suppose anything can get through. (Short of having happen to someone you love, perhaps. I so hope that doesn't happen to anyone here.)
post #94 of 188
Did you read what I wrote about the lap belts that were in cars until 1989. You and I survived those also.
post #95 of 188
I never unrestrained my child in a moving car. Ds did cry on occassion in the car...loudly We always pulled over and nursed. I would never take them out their carseats in a moving car.

A friend of mine did this, routinely, when her dd was an infant. Her reasoning, too, was the baby was crying. Well, pull over then. Get off the highway, whatever. I didn't understand it then either.
post #96 of 188
Applejuice- Are you saying that we should not keep trying to reduce unnecessary deaths because sometimes things don't work and have to be improved?
post #97 of 188
My nephew was burned by a hot metal buckle that laid on his thigh during a car trip; he had several large blisters on his thigh since it moved around when he tried to kick it away. The sun had shown on it through the window and the metal became very hot even though the window was shaded. My sister could not understand why he cried so much en route, then she was horrified to see the huge blisters ... later she was accused of doing this to him with a cigarette or something , she does not smoke .

Oh, well, he lived through that also.
post #98 of 188
The only excuse that I can conceive of for doing something as potentially destructive as taking your child out of a car seat in a moving vehicle is just dumb, DUMB, DUMB ignorance.

Ignorance is understandable in countries which don't have the heavy emphasis on vehicular travel that we do, just as many of us in this country are ignorant of the fine points of non-motorized vehicular travel.

That said, though, IN this country, WHEN you've been given the information, the videos, the physics explanation, the personal stories from people on this board who know what they're talking about when babies meet dashboards, there is not one shred of an excuse.

Car seat safety is not like other issues. Car seat safety is a matter of physics, not debate. NO ONE argues about what happens to a body in a moving vehicle because it's immediately provable and repeatable in experiments and there is a crystal-clear connection between the cause (the car crash and unbuckled child) and effect (painful death, irreversible brain damage, dismemberment, disability) -- unlike, say, the vaccination issue.

What in the world could justify this decision besides ignorance or (worse) stupidity? At least ignorance can be cured with knowledge; for stupidity, maybe only experience does it and maybe not even then. I sure hope that no one gets "taught" this lesson the hard way.
post #99 of 188
Originally Posted by SillyTreeFairy
I agree with limos and taxis needing to provide them. I would think it important for airlines to carry them as well.
HOw about school buses since in my state, children need to be in carseats until they are sixty pounds.

I was sixty pounds until I was nine years old. That would be fourth/fifth grade.
post #100 of 188
From Applejuice -
My nephew was burned by a hot metal buckle that laid on his thigh during a car trip; he had several large blisters on his thigh since it moved around when he tried to kick it away. The sun had shown on it through the window and the metal became very hot even though the window was shaded. My sister could not understand why he cried so much en route, then she was horrified to see the huge blisters ... later she was accused of doing this to him with a cigarette or something , she does not smoke .

Oh, well, he lived through that also.
How is that at all related to this discussion?

No one is suggesting that you should not try to comfort your child or to see if something can be done to make them more comfortable. NO ONE on this thread suggested that you let your baby scream without checking on them. What is your point, really?
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